Hair of the Dog

[calumet]

I'm a heathen, Dobro! Worse, I'm a pagan with an axe to grind against religion. I see religion as a way for a few people to amass power and impose their choice of social controls on the poor saps in their purview. Therefore I have no problem arguing with Jesus's take on forgiveness, or on anything else for that matter.

Again, I don't claim that it is delightful to be unwilling or unable to forvgive. It's not. But improperly granted, forgiveness condones wrongdoing and minimizes the wrong committed, thereby minimizing the victim. I'm obdurate on this. I take it that self-respect is of paramount importance, and I believe that it is not possible to have self-respect and also to forgive lightly. I'd also note that although it's my opinion that the hysteria against pedophiles is a modern-day witch hunt, I still was appalled when the Pope himself put one of America's most notorious ordained pedophiles in charge of the largest pastorate in Italy. The good Father must've gone to confession and been forgiven, huh?

As to what I want to be--how about rich, famous, so stunningly gorgeous as to excite lust in every creature with XY chromosomes, and universally admired. Those'd be a good start.

 

[dobro p]

I think now you're starting to skirt the meaning of things I've said in this thread, subtly or not-so-subtly changing the meaning or putting a different spin on things. That tells me two things: this is a really hot topic for you, and the evasion mechanisms are starting to kick in; second, it's a waste of my time and yours for me to pursue it.

I still like you. No hard feelings? Or is forgiveness required? lol

 

[calumet]

Hot topic or not, I disagree with what you've said and implied. Saying, "No, it's not that way, it's this way" isn't quite the same thing as evading it. I'd agree neither of us is on the verge of convincing the other, though.

 

[gene]

Calumet

I am not sure what religion has to do with whether forgiveness works or not. There is nothing disselfrespecting about forgiveness. In fact it is the only way to respect yourself. For whatever happens in your life, you have unconsciously created it. This is prime teaching in the I Ching. Has nothing to do with religion. If you refuse to forgive others, you refuse to forgive yourself. This is fact, not theory. I am sure you will still refuse to agree. That is okay, but you do so to your own detriment.

Gene

 

[hilary]

(Aside: Hexagram 40 has a whole lot to do with forgiveness. See the Daxiang. Forgive, and you release tension, untie knots.

I find it often comes up in response to people who are using phrases like 'cornered into', 'I'm like a dog with a bone', 'left me no choice', 'he made me', or indeed 'have to', as in 'I'm going to have to stay pissed off until I'm not pissed off any more'.

Can the 'have to' ever be true? Who knows? Not me. From Calumet, and one other woman I can think of, it sounds pretty convincing.)

 

[calumet]

Hilary, that's interesting. What suggests to you that this other person and I HAVE to, as distinct from REFUSE to, whatever? (Sit with the anger until it dissipates, in this case.) Same/similar characteristics? Something completely different that points to the same thing? Just curious.

By the way, despite the testy tone of some of the above posts, I really do find this topic to be of great interest, both personally and intellectually (which probably amounts to the same thing). This passage is from GETTING EVEN: FORGIVENESS AND ITS LIMITS, by Jeffrie Murphy:

" ... [this book} is written for those whose primary desire is for clarity and not for comfort--although it is sometimes a welcome surprise to learn how much comfort can be provided by intellectual clarity. Those old Stoics were onto something after all."

 

[gene]

It is only natural that hexagram 40 would have the image of one who pardons misdeeds. It is the only way to untie the knots that bind us. In hexagram 61 we find that in the realm of mind, like attracts like. If we do not pardon or forgive, our anger acts like a magnet that attracts other thoughts like it to us. In other words, failure to forgive can bind us to the experience, and we are more likely to draw that experience to us again. Even more so, we are likely to experience something dramatic in another lifetime possibly with the same person, until we learn the lesson attached to that experience. Only the actions suggested in hexagram 40 can untie the knot.

I understand about religion being sometimes a noose around our neck. However, religion as it was Romanized in the fourth century CE, (common error) has nothing to do with the teachings that Jesus gave to his disciples. There was no religion involved, only a practical discourse on the nature and relationships and laws inherent within the cosmos. It is not religion or philosophy but truth and good common sense.

Gene

 

[hilary]

I'm not altogether sure whether the 'have to' can be true... not being any kind of expert in these things. The times when it seems harder to get away from are those when, for instance, someone has been wronged and feels a kind of moral obligation for there to be redress. So they 'have to' give over their lives to the cause if they're ever to feel right about themselves. Not that this applies to you directly...it's not as if you were having any effect on Baldy at all - but perhaps you 'have to' spend time being angry to do yourself justice, or something?

But despite all my best intentions to stay open-minded, I can't quite convince myself. I don't know anything about this - but when you say you 'have to stay pissed off', I think I can hear that pit-bull feasting.

 

[calumet]

Thanks, Hilary. Pit bulls may or may not be involved; I will think on this. On first glance, though, I rather think not because (1) emotions cannot simply be willed away; and (2) forgiveness is not the only appropriate response to one's own anger and resentment.

 

[candid]

Any dog worth her teeth will let go of (not forgive) an old bone, in favor of something with real meat.

 

[calumet]

We're definitely going around in circles, here. Yes it is. No it isn't. Variations on same. So unless someone (including me) comes up with a good reason for further comment, this'll be my last comment on the topic.

Candid: All in good time. Or not.

 

[jerryd]

Hello to all, I have been forced into isolation the past 6 days as my telephone lines hace been on the disabled list. A long time for a city this size.

Calumet you said " forgiveness is not the only approperate response to one's own anger and resentment." Perhaps you can embelish this with alternatives which there are many.

I have to daily take stock of my own anger as it is mostly directed at my self and my ignorance in the past. I have made so many poor decisions, trying to avoid the same mistakes, that this may qualify me as one of those who continue to make the same mistakes hopeing for different results. This tells me I am borderline when it comes to my sanity.

 

[jerryd]

OH I just realized you are finished with this topic. Never mind my last post......

 

[calumet]

Jerry, I don't mind discussing a topic if discussion there is to be. This topic had degenrated into an "uh-huh, nuh-uh" thread, which does not, in my view, constitute a discussion.

I don't know that there are MANY alternatives to forgiveness, though there may be. It boils down to how you define forgiveness, and how you make your decision--that is, MUST you forgive either for moral reasons or for your own good, or are you free to withhold forgivenesss? If so, under what circumstances? If it's yourself you must forgive, you'll have to allow yourself time to realistically assess what you expect of yourself vs. what you actually do. Should Jews whose families Hitler wiped out forgive him? Had Hitler lived and had he been sane enough to assess his behavior, would it have been right for him to forgive himself? Should the daughters of a man who raped them for several years during their adolescence forgive him? Should he forgive himself? Weighty questions, I'd say, and there are no easy or obvious answers, in my view anyway.

You can write to me at the email address in my profile if you want to discuss. I'm not expert in this topic, but I know what to read if you want to think about it.

 

[jerryd]

The intresting thing is I have no idea where to find anyones profile here at this sight? Of course I have never looked. I do not think I was ever ask to fill one out?

As for the weighty forgiveness issue it is manifest in the religion of Christians to turn the other cheek so to speak. Well for me this is just metaphorical and if one is willing to forgive this is a personal and individual choice but not one which is easily defineable just like so many things in life.

As I am agnostic to the core, for the most part, I have no Idea what a pagan believes.

 

[hilary]

Hi Jerry,
You find someone's profile by clicking their name at the top of one of their posts. Not everyone includes an email address (nowadays it is sadly likely to get 'harvested' and end up in receipt of volumes of spam).

You can edit your own profile - add a personal quote, upload a photo, whatever... - through the, um, 'edit profile' link up there (*points*) on the left under 'utilities'.

 

[jerryd]

Thank you Hilary, I had no Idea!