How much specificity can you wring out of the I Ching?

[rickmatz]

As a matter of interest what tells you that ? Is it your experience or your beliefs ?

Zen.

 

[solun]

Using the i Ching strictly for advice on how to proceed in the world is a reasonable choice. But except for those few who have renounced the world, I don't believe people do not want to know the future or that having that knowledge makes life pointless. Having an idea of what the future will bring helps one make decisions today. If the weatherman predicts rain tomorrow, you might want to buy an umbrella today. Or if last year one knew that house prices would drop, he might consider renting instead of buying.

Very good points bostonian. But where you say

Having an idea of what the future will bring ...

is key. And so is the skill or experience of the interpreter. Some may have the skill of seeing into the future with/thru the i ching. But I would not, myself, be able to trust that. Perhaps I am too fearful. But basically because I think the potential for the impact of an erroneous influence is so great. And again,it depends on the degree of specificity one is attempting. I am not saying that there aren't any out there who don't have some skill with it. It's just that for me, it's too great a responsibility to trust to another.

It also seems a bit like 'using' the i ching in a way that is fundamentally maybe at odds with it? (Oh boy, I'm gonna be in some real trouble with that one.... ) It rings some of fear and lack of confidence though. As if saying, 'I don't want to be in the now, I want to be in the then because I have no confidence in the hour; and I want to control events, not change what needs to change within me.' ...
I don't believe in pumping the i ching for information in a mundane sense, but again, there may be something I am unaware of. (and btw, I am capable, susceptible, and guilty of transgressing my own beliefs)

It's just one (mine) understanding of it. My approach is not THE approach, it's just one (mine) understanding of it. And I am certainly not beyond a less than perfect footing in my relationship to it - that, too, should improve with time and experience.
As for it being an oracle, that is maybe somewhat semantic and not necessarily meaning it is for soothsaying. I think it's more for recognizing prevailing influences and the nature of the time, and based on this knowledge, one understands their own condition in the scheme of things. Which would ultimately affect the future - if they understood and 'acted' on what they learned, or 'knew'.

 

[solun]

Also, I think 'knowing' the future in a very specific sense would be terribly limiting and uncreative. Sure, we can have an idea or sense of things. But the future is full of infinite variety and possiblility ... and we should avail ourselves of it ... not limit it to only a handful of outcomes based on limited understanding of such a profound legacy as the i ching. For me, it lacks a certain necessary modesty in the spirit of approach. But maybe not a certain humility ... ?

Hilary's blog for May 5th on topic is a very good read.

 

[meng]

I'm quite a lot of the same mind as Solun in these matters, relating easily with what he says.

It's not that future events aren't important to me, nor that it's never part of my question to the Yi, but that my primary purpose is to see what it really looks like. The opportunism extends itself into understanding myself, and by understand myself I come to better understand the nature of self, and the nature of nature itself. The past, present and future are the means to that end.

 

[solun]

Hi meng. Just wanted to state openly that solun is a she. Always was, always will be, a she creature.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi meng. Just wanted to state openly that solun is a she. Always was, always will be, a she creature.

Well, how ya doing? (quoting Joey from Friends)

 

[meng]

Hi meng. Just wanted to state openly that solun is a she. Always was, always will be, a she creature.

Woops, sorry. I almost said he/she too.

 

[bostonian]

I fully understand what Meng and Solun mean -- I'm much too new at this to agree or disagree -- when it comes to very specific discrete events such as "Is the lump on my breast cancer?" will i get a pay increase this year?" or "will x marry me?"

So are you saying that you ask only questions that call for advice like "How should i prepare for the job interview"? Other than those kind of questions -- ones that use the I-Ching as one might use a coach or counselor -- isn't there implicit prophesy in the response. For example, if one asks "What will happen if i quit my job and return to school?" or "Should I take up my friend's offer to move to New York and room with him"? Isn't it likely in the response to those questions, the I Ching will be offering some kind of prediction of what will happen?

 

[rickmatz]

So are you saying that you ask only questions that call for advice like "How should i prepare for the job interview"? Other than those kind of questions -- ones that use the I-Ching as one might use a coach or counselor -- isn't there implicit prophesy in the response. For example, if one asks "What will happen if i quit my job and return to school?" or "Should I take up my friend's offer to move to New York and room with him"? Isn't it likely in the response to those questions, the I Ching will be offering some kind of prediction of what will happen?

I submit that the I Ching is a tool which will help to reveal how you really feel about these questions, nothing more. What could be more enlightening?

 

[bostonian]

I submit that the I Ching is a tool which will help to reveal how you really feel about these questions, nothing more. What could be more enlightening?

Well, I think the word you opens up a can of worms. It seems that within your statement there is the assumption that there are at least two you's. There's the you which is the physical and psychological self which we identify as ourself. But that self -- that you -- does not know what it really feels. Your statement seems to suggest that there is another you who does know how both you's feels. The I Ching, I believe you may be saying, is one way of contacting that second you.

So for me the question is what besides knowing how one really feels does that second you know? For example, does it know, given the current course of one's life, what the future will hold? Or even is it part of a universal you that actually creates the scripts that we call life?

 

[bostonian]

It also seems a bit like 'using' the i ching in a way that is fundamentally maybe at odds with it? (Oh boy, I'm gonna be in some real trouble with that one.... ) It rings some of fear and lack of confidence though. As if saying, 'I don't want to be in the now, I want to be in the then because I have no confidence in the hour;

I don't disagree with this Solun. As I said someplace else, wanting to know with specificity what the future holds connotes a bit of spiritual immaturity. (I don't mean that negatively since i believe we're all on the same spiritual path and we all are mature at times and immature at other times). But your statement doesn't really address what the i Ching can do, just how someone who lives in the eternal now would use it.

 

[rickmatz]

So for me the question is what besides knowing how one really feels does that second you know? For example, does it know, given the current course of one's life, what the future will hold? Or even is it part of a universal you that actually creates the scripts that we call life?

You choose your life, just as you choose how to interpret the hexagrams.

 

[chiahsieh]

Actually this debate began thousands of years ago. As most of us know the person who created Yi-Ching was the first Emperor of Zhou Dynasty. He actually created the yi-ching while he was imprisoned by the previous dynasty's emperor. A lot of scholars said that he hided his ambition, goals, and wishes under the cover of Fortune telling, so he wouldn't be in trouble. Thus, I-Ching can really be the guidance/coaching book whatever you'd like to call it. However, if one reads the detail of Yi-Ching. It is constantly stating in the ancient text that the purpose of it is for predicting the future. That's take this line of ancient text for example 數往者順，知來者逆，是故易逆數也。It says to go accordingly is to follow, knowing the future is against; thus, the purpose of Yi is knowing the future and going against it. (Forgive my horrible translation, it is ancient Chinese text)

Thus I really think it can be used as both ways. So why not just use I-ching as both self guidance/exploration and predicting the future.

 

[solun]

Sorry I have been away, didn't mean to abandon thread ...

Ultimately it's true, as you say, that the Yi will be used, and not incorrectly so to speak, by whomever uses it and for whatever reasons they choose. relates again to our path ..
and of course, there is an implicit element of 'knowing' what is in the air so to speak which relates to something predictive.
I should add, that I use destiny cards also and there seems to be more specificity in them for me than in the I ching. So I admit to being inclined toward wanting to 'know' things, or whether conditions are favorable or just what. I respect them both. The I ching, to me ... asking it certain questions would be - well, not appropriate for me I think - it's a question of the character of my approach to it. I would feel as if I were trivializing it in a way ... but I do not have the , maybe linguistic or cultural facility that some have which may give it more (or less depending on how you see it) elasticity ... ?!

 

[solun]

You choose your life, just as you choose how to interpret the hexagrams.

quite true!

maybe the issue for me is not so much about information as admonition or wisdom ... I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other, it just depends on the hour. it may after all, be wisdom to gain information!
I could be misunderstanding a bit too, in that the question may be where the specificity comes in - moreso than the answer itself. Yes, maybe that's it, theYi can handle specificity from us, but how specific are it's responses ?

 

[fkegan]

Hi All,

The issue of Yi Oracle Soothsaying boils down ultimately to the question of what will be your reaction and/or recourse if what you expect to happen from your interpretation of a Yi Oracle does not come to pass?

The Yi is called an Oracle since it was used as an Oracle at least since the development of the KWS (1100 B.C.E) with archeologists noting that by 1100 B.C.E. the many piles of tortoise shell oracles suddenly stop. Confucius worked out an entire system of commentary in Yin and Yang as proper relations between superior and inferior as part of interpreting the Yi as an instruction manual and fortune telling system for the Imperial Civil Service.

Again, the question is not its fortune telling opportunities but the certainty of its response as an objective lock upon future events. In many way a Yi Oracle is an instantaneous tangent to the current momentum of things and can only be expected to describe the Tao up to that moment. The future is freewheeling after all.

Frank

 

[bostonian]

The issue of Yi Oracle Soothsaying boils down ultimately to the question of what will be your reaction and/or recourse if what you expect to happen from your interpretation of a Yi Oracle does not come to pass?

I think one thing that has been missing from our discussion here is the relative value of the I Ching as an oracle. Some people are concerned that knowing the future will take meaning out of life; others worry, with Frank, what people will do when their interpretation of the oracle doesn't happen. However, modern scientists use hundreds or thousands of prediction tools. They use tools to predict when volcanoes will erupt, what the stock market will do, whether a baby will be healthy, what the weather will be next week, how many inches in a snow storm, etc. None of those tools are perfect, but they do provide information that people can use, keeping in mind the tool's unreliability, in making decisions. Perhaps many of the objections over using the I Ching as a predictive tool would fall away if people didn't count on it as 100 percent accurate but as a tool which has varying reliability based upon who is using it among other factors.

What do you think?

 

[fkegan]

I think one thing that has been missing from our discussion here is the relative value of the I Ching as an oracle. Some people are concerned that knowing the future will take meaning out of life; others worry, with Frank, what people will do when their interpretation of the oracle doesn't happen. However, modern scientists use hundreds or thousands of prediction tools. They use tools to predict when volcanoes will erupt, what the stock market will do, whether a baby will be healthy, what the weather will be next week, how many inches in a snow storm, etc. None of those tools are perfect, but they do provide information that people can use, keeping in mind the tool's unreliability, in making decisions. Perhaps many of the objections over using the I Ching as a predictive tool would fall away if people didn't count on it as 100 percent accurate but as a tool which has varying reliability based upon who is using it among other factors.

What do you think?

Hi Bostonian,
I was not aware that there was any issue about the Oracle value of the Yi, at least not since Confucius wrote such use into his advice for proper conduct of Imperial employees. When did this problem arise?

As to 'modern' science's views-- they tend not to have much use for prediction since their beliefs were based upon Medieval Scholastic integration of Aristotle and Aquinas and thus all such future knowledge they got from their Bible. Only the subrosa predictions of "random' events is allowed. Logically, there either are no "random" events, just their causes are unknown; or they are Divinely ordered events (thus beyond human understanding) which are called "random" to not use the name of the Divine explicitly per the 10 Commandments.

The hundreds and thousands of techniques you reference are based in probability, an illogical notion that there is an equal likelihood for any named outcome. This gets tough since the prediction must change as the number of named options varies--e.g., if you are predicting the direction of the wind tomorrow, it would make a difference if you used a four direction compass rose or a 64 direction one.

As to your characterization of other objections to your fortunetelling interests, you rather have them WRONG, especially mine. Knowing the future with certainty is a personal belief, thinking your notions about it would deprive your life of meaning is a bit over the top melodramatic, "I can only have meaning if tomorrow is a total surprise"?

My view is NOT as you allege. The Yi Oracle is excellent --who would use it if they didn't experience that?

However, it is an instantaneous tangent from the timing of NOW. There is no guarantee how long that Oracle is valid into the future, or that YOUR interpretation of that Oracle is worthwhile. In general, casting the oracle and interpreting it is an external change which may well cause the conditions upon which your Oracle was based to change.

My comment quoted in your post that I quoted above was simply a note about how much folks are going to rely upon their Oracles as fortunetelling rather than sage counsel. It wasn't a complaint about the Oracle, just about fortunetellers and their followers.

Cheers,

Frank

 

[bostonian]

I was not aware that there was any issue about the Oracle value of the Yi, at least not since Confucius wrote such use into his advice for proper conduct of Imperial employees. When did this problem arise?

Frank, As I understand it, much of this thread is about that very issue: whether one can or should use the I Ching as an oracle or as a counselor or both.

 

[meng]

the question may be where the specificity comes in

Yes, and yet the Yi appears to often ignore the question no matter how thoughtfully or obstinately it's framed.

If you hand a caveman a modern baseball bat, he'll use it to hunt and defend. Is that a less intelligent use than knocking a ball around a field?

Likewise, if I were such a primitive hunter, I'd seek the fortune teller, to tell me the most favorable time to hunt, and where. I might consult the tribal philosopher once my family had a full stomach.

 

[meng]

a hex. 10 perspective

Discriminating between higher or lower purposes is the original slippery slope. It is the cause of all class struggles and all self righteousness.

If the tiger doesn't bite, it isn't because we outsmart her, but because she pities us, and our time has not yet come. Nothing to be smug about.

 

[fkegan]

Frank, As I understand it, much of this thread is about that very issue: whether one can or should use the I Ching as an oracle or as a counselor or both.

Hi Bostonian,
Yes, this thread is about individuals not all that familiar with the Yi Oracle asking how much can they safely bet on Oracle answers they interpret as lottery or sports book outcomes. However, that is different than anything having to do with the Yi Oracle--it has to do with THEIR understanding and blind reliance upon their penny tosses.

Should you use the Yi Oracle as a counselor, of course. As an Oracle, sure, but do you have any idea what an oracle might be? I don't know. What can you use the Yi oracle answer for--that is an interesting question for which the best answer comes by keeping a journal of your situations, the questions you ask, the Yi Oracles you receive, how you interpreted this oracle, what you expect to follow in the future... with room left to add on at least several occasions later what seems to have happened and how you now interpret the oracle you got originally.

A loose-leaf notebook so you can add many extra pages or a bound journal with one side of a page for each oracle and the other side blank for later events, notes and comments depending upon what you need for such a journal to work for you.

It is actually a personal matter (or act of Grace by the Oracle) what level of true future prediction one may get. One person somehow needing to have clear and true fortunetelling may well receive such. Another may get what they need more in terms of learning their limits and deeper insights into the Oracle.

Does that clarify my point of view better?

Cheers,
Frank

 

[meng]

As I understand it, much of this thread is about that very issue: whether one can or should use the I Ching as an oracle or as a counselor or both.

For me, the lines between oracle, councilor, teacher, god, God, gods, myth, symbolism, and everything I call reality, aren't so neatly arranged and prioritized. They're more blend-able than that.

For example, knowing the future doesn't have to mean the same as knowing the outcome. It could mean knowing the best way of going about something. So if I inquire the oracle before a big tournament of some kind, I'm likely to ask how to win, not whether I'd win or lose. Maybe it tells me instead something about good sportsmanship, or pacing myself, etc. Maybe it stirs up my spirit to play better, or maybe it reminds me of something else entirely, which will effect the game. Maybe it tells the future bluntly, like "today the game will be rained out". How would you classify that answer? That of an oracle or of a coach? How about that of a grandfather or grandmother?