How to test the yi jing ?

[Yarrowstalk]

What are good ways to test the yi jing ?

If i ask the exact same question for ecample - i should get the exact same reply ?

are there some good ideas for questions that can help prove to self the yi jing works ?

im asking for good fast ways to prove to self the yi jing works (or at least that the way you use it works) - excpet the obvius that thourgh using it thorugh long time you learn to trust it more and more .......... im looking for ways to make it clearer faster

**** im asking this to people who belive the yi jing is a way to connect to a higher self and that the yi jing is a spirituasl thing - not meant for people who think its not spiritual but just a way to help the mind get a new way of thought and that the results you get are not cause of a spiritual process **

 

[moss elk]

If i ask the exact same question for ecample - i should get the exact same reply?

From Hex 4's judgement:
It is not I who seeks the young and inexperienced The young and inexperienced seek me The first consultation informs The second and third show disrespect Disrespect deserves no information

"testing' Yi may also be considered 'disrepectful'.

You have no hope of out smarting Yi.

 

[Trojina]

What are good ways to test the yi jing ?

Just use it in your every day life and see how it talks to you. You don't need to devise any tests indeed you cannot, you cannot test a vaster intelligence than your own except by simply consulting when you need to and seeing how the answers work for you or don't work for you.

**** im asking this to people who belive the yi jing is a way to connect to a higher self and that the yi jing is a spirituasl thing - not meant for people who think its not spiritual but just a way to help the mind get a new way of thought and that the results you get are not cause of a spiritual process **

It really makes no difference to the quality of the answers what anyone thinks the I Ching is. That is answers will come regardless of what you think of Yi as. The way you interpret can be affected by your view of what Yi is but not the actual answers that come..

 

[Yarrowstalk]

From Hex 4's judgement:
It is not I who seeks the young and inexperienced The young and inexperienced seek me The first consultation informs The second and third show disrespect Disrespect deserves no information

"testing' Yi may also be considered 'disrepectful'.

You have no hope of out smarting Yi.

This is actually intersting you mentioned this - cause when i asked him one time online " can you please show me the result you gave me last time" - i got hexagram 4 and was very excited i got it .... and just now i tried that again in a website reader (unlike the physical ones i do with yarrow stalks and prior meditation) and i didnt get hexegram 4 or anything like that

 

[Yarrowstalk]

Just use it in your every day life and see how it talks to you. You don't need to devise any tests indeed you cannot, you cannot test a vaster intelligence than your own except by simply consulting when you need to and seeing how the answers work for you or don't work for you.





It really makes no difference to the quality of the answers what anyone thinks the I Ching is. That is answers will come regardless of what you think of Yi as. The way you interpret can be affected by your view of what Yi is but not the actual answers that come..

if the answeres are not affected - than why i got different hexgrams for the exact same reply ?

 

[Yarrowstalk]

about everyday life - im usually doing it with lighting incense (which makes my clothes and room smell ) , wearing white clothes , doing meditation before , using yarrow stalks all in all it takes an hour - the incesne was costly (now i ordered cheap in bulk) and my back hurts cause usually i get up every few minutes ... so it is an effort for me to do proper divinations - that is why i want to know im getting popper answers for the effort put in and since i dont do many propper divinations - so to check it daily is something i need motivation for and i would like to have some more faith in the yi jing - so would like to test it in some way that will give results faster (maybe in a few divinations rather than a few months or years)

 

[Trojina]

if the answeres are not affected - than why i got different hexgrams for the exact same reply ?

Not sure what you mean ? Do you mean different hexagrams for the same question ? Well it's not a machine if it's answered you once why ask the exact same question again ?

about everyday life - im usually doing it with lighting incense (which makes my clothes and room smell ) , wearing white clothes , doing meditation before , using yarrow stalks all in all it takes an hour - the incesne was costly (now i ordered cheap in bulk) and my back hurts cause usually i get up every few minutes ... so it is an effort for me to do proper divinations - that is why i want to know im getting popper answers for the effort put in and since i dont do many propper divinations - so to check it daily is something i need motivation for and i would like to have some more faith in the yi jing - so would like to test it in some way that will give results faster (maybe in a few divinations rather than a few months or years)

There's absolutely no need for the incense or white clothes ! It's not necessary at all. Just throw a few coins in your usual clothes, there's no need for ceremony such as this.

Why go to all that trouble to indicate respect when the greatest respect you could show is just to trust the answers and see how it works out. You can't test the I Ching and you can't change anything at all about your connection with it by wearing white clothes and burning incense. You don't need to consider 'results' just consult in your life without the paraphernalia you currently use. It doesn't take an hour, you can do it anywhere in 5 minutes.

 

[Yarrowstalk]

yes i got the same hexgram for same question - why ? like i wrote above to test it

3 incense sticks - the smoke from them supose to break energy patterens in the room which supose to help somehow ... same with clothes - about yarrow stalks its more meditative the way its used and its connected to spirtual world also i understand the coins effect the results a bit unlike the yarrow - --- the stuff i write here are based upon my understanding of damo mitchell teachings about this subject

i want to trust the Yi jin g to a point where i actually can make a decision by it and with confidence

 

[Trojina]

yes i got the same hexgram for same question - why ? like i wrote above to test it

So....? It's not unusual to cast the same hexagram for different questions either. I don't like this notion of 'testing'. I mean a sincere attitude to casting, really wanting to know is all you need to bring with you, not special clothes. What use are clothes and incense it's sincerity that matters.

3 incense sticks - the smoke from them supose to break energy patterens in the room which supose to help somehow ... same with clothes - about yarrow stalks its more meditative the way its used and its connected to spirtual world also i understand the coins effect the results a bit unlike the yarrow - --- the stuff i write here are based upon my understanding of damo mitchell teachings about this subject

Oh fiddlesticks, nonsense, you don't need incense to 'break energy patterns' you only need the wish to know, to be sincere in asking the question. The rest is just empty theatricals IMO I have no time for it at all.

And how much it misses the point. You do all these things yet have an idea you can test the Oracle ? Your attitude matters more than these other stage props, The spiritual world is right here in the room with your dirty dishes and laundry. It doesn't suddenly change everything to have a few incense sticks and white clothes.


If you are thinking of 'results' as if all this ritual manipulates the Yi then you're on the wrong track. Never heard of demo mitchell. I mean if you like using incense and wearing white clothes to consult then fine, if it helps you focus then fine but it's not a requirement for clear communication with the I Ching, not at all.

 

[Yarrowstalk]

yes i got the same hexgram for same question - why ? like i wrote above to test it

correction meant to write - got different hexegrams for same question ... and in same time more or less (for example asking about effect on stretching exercises on my body and asked a few days apart - when question is meant to ask about years)

 

[Yarrowstalk]

about the testing .... i would assume most if not all people "test" the yi jing to some extent : you after very long time of using the yi jing have got to trust it after a long time - but not many people will start to use the yi jing and make a radical life change for example just becuase the yi jing told them that on the first read - most will need some good time to build trust in the yi jing readings

I understand that the more in a meditative state you will get more accurate results (results i dont know whats bad about that word or what you think it implies - its just how i descirbe the divnation results : aka the hexegram you recive and how you inteprert it togther) ............ its not that i dont trust the yi jing more than im not sure i trust my level of meditaive state - you need to come to the divination from a higher place not with your logical mind you need to be clear and have the question in mind when doing divination - so if you meditate before you will get more accurate results than if you play do yi jing divination while watching a TV program - so i doubt the results i get from yi jing and not the yi jing as a method itself

 

[Yarrowstalk]

and it could be nice if i can gain a high level of trust in my yi jing divnation results faster - unlike people taking years to get it - not just to accpet the results but to really belive them to a point you make drastic life changes based solely on yi jing results

 

[Trojina]

There is no need to be in a meditative state to consult Yi. It's a false idea that you do, just come to it as you are.

I understand that the more in a meditative state you will get more accurate results (

No not at all. Cultivating states of minds with the illusion you will get better 'results' is false. You don't manipulate Yi by what you wear or what mood you try to induce. I mean a bit of space and peace and quiet is helpful, I prefer to consult alone somewhere quiet but it doesn't have to be so to get clear answers.

.. i would assume most if not all people "test" the yi jing to some extent : you after very long time of using the yi jing have got to trust it after a long time - but not many people will start to use the yi jing and make a radical life change for example just becuase the yi jing told them that on the first read - most will need some good time to build trust in the yi jing readings

Yes, it takes time to build a relationship with Yi but that relationship can at the same time start straight away. You should never be making radical life changes just because you imagine Yi 'told you' to do so. It doesn't tell you to do anything, you have freewill. You aren't bound to any kind of obedience. Of course Yi may make you realise a big change is necessary, stimulate your thoughts about it, but in the end you should not take answers as instructions exactly.


It may help to think of Yi as another person, well disposed towards you, with a very wide and broad perspective and wisdom. Such a person doesn't care if you ask for help in a white robe or a G string, in a calm mood or tearing your hair out, there is more generosity towards you than that. Also your life is always yours to do as you wish with there is no compunction to follow what you see as advice if it seems against your own judgment. I think really the problem is less in trusting Yi, it's answers are I think trustworthy, than in trusting your interpretation which is why places like this exist.

 

[IrfanK]

Just ask it what you had for breakfast this morning. If it tells you Kellogg's cornflakes and you actually had fried eggs, you've exposed the whole thing as a fraud.

 

[Yarrowstalk]

such a rude comment - i wonder if you even read what i wrote - i never said its a fraud i explained exactly what i mean im not testing the yi jing really but my ability to use it and to build trust in the advice i get so i can follow it more and get more from it ---- seems like you didnt even read my comments above or read them but didnt understand them --- and all this just furthers me from actually getting good helpful replies

 

[Trojina]

But seriously it's more helpful perhaps to start with smaller less important questions than to begin with great big life questions.


I've got the idea, in the Foundations Course perhaps, that Hilary compares learning to use Yi like learning to sail a boat. You don't learn to sail right in the midst of a mighty storm you learn more in quiet conditions and so when there is a storm you know how to handle it. I think she compared this to learning Yi as in it's not a great idea to wait for really catastrophic or serious issues before consulting Yi, it's actually better to begin learning through smaller questions. Questions such as maybe 'advise me on this day, how will this day be for me ?' and then recording how it played out. Some like to do weekly readings, a general question about the week ahead and see how that played out.

One might say that was a way of 'testing' though it's not exactly testing it's exploring and learning. The afternoon I cast 43.2 I had 3 unexpected quite alarming intrusions, none of which had any harmful effect in the end. Hence I learned something quite concrete about 43.2. Yi showed me in small ways, an alarming knock at the door, an alarming message on the computer, what 43.2 feels like for me. You could experiment that way.


Some people ask about the results of sports and Yi appears to cooperate. It's not something I'd ever want to do but people say they learn from it. Also people ask about the unfolding of plots in TV series for example. If you ask with sincerity, a wish to learn, Yi is very generous in responding as far as I can see. Yi is also very generous in responding to those who think it's nothing but an inkblot test or something like that. If you set out to 'test' Yi you may meet generosity but be aware you may also get teased. Yi has a sense of humour.



Some people would ask questions about their breakfast habits, not necessarily Kellogg's or eggs but maybe questions about nutrition. There aren't really any limits so this can be fun if you are really engaging with Yi. Yi will answer people riding a bus with someone clicking an online app, it's a very portable oracle. If you have learned a special atmosphere, clothes or incense or yarrow stalks are needed you're missing out, you're making it too heavy and complicated. Nothing wrong with incense or lighting candles if it puts you in the headspace to connect with Yi but you don't really need it. I don't like using online consulting apps but they seem to work. I prefer to sit at the table quietly and I get more sense of being answered but if I was out and needed to I'd use an app.


PS people will joke about testing Yi because they know you can't really test it out like a vacuum cleaner, you have to engage and if you are in your pyjamas it doesn't matter. It's a relationship first and foremost so you engage as if it were a relationship. If you had a new friend you wouldn't devise tests to see how kind or faithful they'd be to you you'd observe how they respond to you to learn about who they are for you.

 

[my_key]

I've not read all this thread, but intregued by the original post by Yarrowstalk refering to the extent and cost in time and money to his yi jing rituals and the testing of how 'to prove to self the yi jing works'.

For many people ritual is important for making a connection to the Yi divination process. The focus of the connection looks to be for Yarrowstalk on the front end of the divination process, the formulation of the hexagram(s), and gets lost or disconnected at the crucial point of interpreting what the hexagrams are saying.

Yes, by using Yi more and more you become more adept at gaining insights, but for Yarrowstalk there is a trust issue involved. I can only imagine that this lack of trust is placed in his ability to interpret the message. To prove to yourself that the Yi works is a journey we all have to make and the solution to this is by no means a one size fits all.

I response to his enquiry on looking for ways to make it clearer faster.
For me there are two elements to consider here in speeding up the process to make the divination message clearer faster.
1) Cut out or cut down on the ritual. - This will address the faster
2) Become more fluent in the language of the lines. - This will address the clearer

To build trust it is best to practice on safe topics that do not have life shattering implications. Topics that do not matter if you get them 'right' or 'wrong'. Make your enquiries personal and not fortune telling, or asking for others. Create a personal close relationship with Yi where your focus is on quality of that relationship.

Keep records of your divinations and follow up on your readings after the events have occured - compare what actually happened to the divination reading. Be curious when they differ and look for how your interpretation may have gone adrift. There is no quick fix here, you will get out of your relationship with Yi a reflection of what you are prepared to put in.


Good Luck

 

[IrfanK]

such a rude comment - i wonder if you even read what i wrote - i never said its a fraud i explained exactly what i mean im not testing the yi jing really but my ability to use it and to build trust in the advice i get so i can follow it more and get more from it ---- seems like you didnt even read my comments above or read them but didnt understand them --- and all this just furthers me from actually getting good helpful replies

Sigh. I like to think I'm usually quite polite. And I wasn't trying to belittle you, just to indicate that I thought the idea of testing the Yi by asking the same question a few times in a row was ridiculous. Instead of getting hurt feelings about it, why not just try to reflect for a while on why that may not be the best approach to using an oracle?

 

[moss elk]

Yes, I think my_key & Trojina picked up on the need to learn and to try not to rush it.
(This is not the matrix after all,
we can't download a zip file)

Irfan & m.e. seem to think you'd feel better if you lightened up a bit.

I also recommend doing occasional daily readings in the morning as a way to become fluent with Yi. A general sort of question, like a weather report,
"what's up today?"
"what's important today?"
You'll likely learn what the lines mean,
what things Yi prioritizes, and have your mind blown away again and again.

 

[my_key]

I also recommend doing occasional daily readings in the morning as a way to become fluent with Yi. A general sort of question, like a weather report,
"what's up today?"
"what's important today?"
You'll likely learn what the lines mean,
what things Yi prioritizes, and have your mind blown away again and again.

Yes, this is a good suggestion. It can help to build the clarity and the trust.
Working on the fast element, I have done this kind of thing using a pack of I Ching cards. I pick two at random, unseen - primary and resultant. I like visual representations - they fit with my preferred style of learning. Being faced by the wider picture / connections of the divination first was insightful and then I have to do a bit of book work delving into the translations and meanings of the changing lines.

Clarity comes with practice and application. Find a way to do this that suits you and your personality.The more I have practiced and applied myself to I Ching the faster and clearer my interpretations have become. On the downside the faster I have jumped to 'wrong' interpretations too. I now trust myself completely to get an interpretation right or to get it wrong.

Good Luck

 

[Win_Po]

I think I understand what you mean, but be aware that the Yi doesn't like repeating itself, only when necessary if outcomes to multiple questions are related.
If you want more confidence then try this:
Take 5 people you know or think you know well. Then ask for each how they relate to you or feel about you. The answers should generally make sense. Then over time ask about situations you are involved with, the answers should also bear out in the course of time.
For practical questions like these I ignore Wilhelms commentary and tend to use Hillary's and or Stephen Karchers books/commentary.

 

[rosada]

I thought I'd try asking your question...

How can I test the I Ching?

34.4 - 11.

34.Great Vigour

Great vigour. Constancy bears fruit.

A noble one treads no path that is without ritual.

34.4
Constancy, good fortune.
Regrets vanish.
The bridge is broken through, no entanglement.
Vigour in the axle straps of a great cart.

11. Flow
Flow. Small goes, great comes.
Good fortune, creating success.
the prince enriches and completes the way of heaven and earth.
Upholds and assists the order of heaven and earth,
To support and protect the people.

---I see these hexagrams as saying that as one reads the I Ching with constancy they will experience good fortune so there are no regrets (doubts). Indeed, there will be breakthroughs in understanding that will strengthen and carry us.

In sum I think we are being advised to not just consult the I Ching as an oracle but also to study it, to know the lesson in each hexagram. When we understand the lesson and thus the ritual each path requires, we wont feel compelled to test the IC. We'll recognize for ourselves where things are headed and go with the Flow.