Ignorant and Blessed by Heaven

[Pearlescent]

I'm just wondering if there could possibly be other interpretations for the word or character that has been translated as 'speaking' from the text in hexagram 4:


'Not knowing, creating success.
I do not seek the young ignoramus, the young ignoramus seeks me.
The first consultation speaks clearly.
The second and third pollute the waters,
Polluted, and hence not speaking.
Constancy bears fruit.’


I wonder this because I've read on the forum that at least a handful of individuals well versed in the Yi seem to have mentioned the opinion that Yi may after a certain threshold begin to give 'non answers', like a kind of dead air so to speak. I thought the same thing myself, but lately I'm wondering if maybe it doesn't just begin to tell you about things that are true, and do in fact apply to some part of your life, but you have no way of relating the answers to anything. I'm not sure if that distinction even matters if you can't make heads or tails of it either way, but if in hex 4 when it says no longer speaking, what if that could also be translated as no longer communicating? As in the connection isn't going both ways, not necessarily that the messages themselves have become irrelevant or uncommunicatve. Maybe it's like the Yi can just run off ahead of you and theres no way of catching up at that point. This matters to me because it seems counterintuitive that the Yi would switch to a mode that wasn't a reflection of some true energy change somewhere, and I also just prefer to think that there isn't a point where Yi decides its done responding. I mean I have gotten downright sassy answers and many times have been embarrassed at the admonishment I feel I have on occassion recieved rom the oracle, but I find it just, not easy to accept or sit with that it would just all the sudden check out. Then again, its hard to say for sure, as what patterns would emerge if a bunch of different people sat down with the Yi and each did a hundred casts all in a row? I think I may be getting a bit off track here, but this also kind of loosely ties in with something else I wanted to say.

Everyone has their own rules and style of consulting the Yi, some are quite particular about what question was asked exactly, verbatum, and others believe that it's OK to approach the Yi and just say 'this' with the situation in mind. I think both have their ups and downs depending on the nature of the question, but let me ask this, because its been on my mind, have you ever gotten a response to a question that you know you were concentrating on quite clearly, that seemed to be an answer or description of something else? Entirely. Something else unrelated...

For me, this seems to happen, not often, however, regularly enough that I am convinced the Yi will sometimes bypass entirely even the subject matter of your enquiry to tell you what you need to know.

One example I have of this kind of solidified it or me, at least in terms of being a very strong possibility. I've been getting quite into the subconscious mind, and I believe I'm making progress by using hypnosis, repeating affirmations and drawing pictures to align my consciousness with a more positive and stable inner state. I could go on and on about the subconscious, but in order to relay this story I won't do that here and now, but if you're ever interested, the subconscious is where its at. Many believe your life is a perfect reflection of your subconscious beliefs, and if you can change them, miraculous things can happen. Perhaps this is why many struggle with the 'create your own reality' techniques because they are at the superficial level of the conscious mind, which will never ever be able to shake the base of the iceberg that is the subconscious by willpower alone.

Anyway I had been regularly checking in with the yi to see kind of where I was at, was I doing too much, was I not doing enough ect. For weeks on end I kept receiving lines in hexagram 14 assuring me that this was legit and I was going somewhere (14.2)... (still getting those readings by the way, the unfoldment of the subconscious mind into the external world is a very gradual thing, in fact when I asked the Yi what I needed to know about the subconscious it said 53.6, so there's that). One day I asked for a reading for what the nature of that particular day would be like, and recieved 14.2.6, line 2 about a chariot for having a direction to go and line 6 for being blessed and protected by heaven. All day I was kind of squirming in my seat with elation like 'this is it, things are gonna change for me , I'll see something today.'
Well, unfortunately my boyfriend came to me and said he really needed my help with the bills, what I'm doing isn't enough, we were going to be late on rent and we didnt have enough, and assure you I was beside myself. I was really disillusioned. I was focusing always on the person I wanted to be, how could I be confronted with the exact opposite? I cried, I almost wanted to give it all up but I wanted to believe in it so much.

Well, the next day my boyfriend did a reading about some guy he said was watching our house. We don't live in a good neighborhood and we've had a few attempted break-ins before and it's made my boyfriend a little bit paranoid. He doesn't consult the Yi much, so he asked me to take a look at his readings. His question was something like what was that guy doing outside of our house? And the answer was 14.6.

I suggested to him that the Yi could possibly be telling him about something else and not really answering his question directly, which he wasn't exactly keen on, but no sooner did I say that than a text came in on his phone (which we were looking up the line translations on) from our landlord basically saying they would be gone until near the end of the month on vacation. At that point my boyfriend tells me he made a sale and the funds should be through literally just before our landlord would be back in town.

Now, that absolutely felt like being protected and blessed by heaven to me. Who knows, I like to think of that reading that whatever it is that blesses us was biding me some precious time to keep working with my subconcious mind. I'm just saying. I also really, really needed to see that.

There have been other readings I felt were bypassing my question and instead telling me something else perhaps more important at that time. That's the thing about the Yi, you can't really be sure but you can definitely look for patterns. I hope this has been interesting to somebody, I'd be glad to hear what any of you think about these kind of more mysterious and rather abstract aspects of the Yi...

 

[Trojina]

Everyone has their own rules and style of consulting the Yi, some are quite particular about what question was asked exactly, verbatum, and others believe that it's OK to approach the Yi and just say 'this' with the situation in mind. I think both have their ups and downs depending on the nature of the question, but let me ask this, because its been on my mind, have you ever gotten a response to a question that you know you were concentrating on quite clearly, that seemed to be an answer or description of something else? Entirely. Something else unrelated...

Not often entirely unrelated I don't think...although I think it has happened. But what I have got are predictions or notifications of events to come that will have a bearing on the topic I ask about but which I know nothing of at the time of casting. I think a person can come to sense these kinds of answers, sense that they are referring to something just beyond sight. For that reason they may not make sense the day you cast them. I always recommend putting an answer you don't understand in your pocket for a while and see how it unfolds. I think the answer you don't understand can be the hard boiled sweet of the divination world. I like them. You can put them in your pocket to re find them 3 weeks later, still good to eat.*

The answer that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever is more like the long lost hard boiled sweet under the car seat. You can forget about it but it's still there. But one day, one fine day, it comes to light to be devoured in a whole different frame of mind to when it was first left under the seat. I'd always recommend walking away from answers and coming back to them anyway. I generally always do that. Sometimes it's just a case of walking across the room and coming back, other times much longer journeys are needed as a kind of incubation period while the answer takes time to find a place to settle. Some answers are less like boiled sweets and more like airbourne feathers.

* well if they wrapped boiled sweets and answers are indeed often wrapped much like sweets

 

[cjgait]

The translation quoted has very little to do with the original Chinese text, changing or inventing pretty much everything. However the word you are asking about is this:

告 口+4 吿 gào tell, announce, inform; accuse

In some versions of the early texts of the Yi recovered from tombs (like the Yi Jing on silk), there is one less stroke and that character is:

吉 口+3 jí lucky, propitious, good

So instead of it being not pronounced or answered, it is an omen of misfortune.

My personal theory on the process of divination is that in the early days there were indicators both about the situation and the divination itself. In hexagram 8 the diviner is told to ask again. In hexagram 4 he is scolded about not asking too many times. The system that preceded the Yi, the oracle bones, made use of full and partial repetitions of a question, for instance asking whether a particular ancestor was responsible for a misfortune, then another ancestor, another, and so on. It seems more like the Urim and Thummim than the way the Yi operates. However the Yi Jing we see is masked behind many layers of history and interpretation.

 

[canislulu]

The system that preceded the Yi, the oracle bones, made use of full and partial repetitions of a question, for instance asking whether a particular answer was responsible for a misfortune, then another ancestor, another, and so on. It seems more like the Urim and Thummim than the way the Yi operates. However the Yi Jing we see is masked behind many layers of history and interpretation.

cj --- I am thinking you mean "whether a particular ancestor was responsible" instead of "answer"? And thank you for the Chinese. I always like it when people put the chinese and the words in some of these posts as I find it quite helpful. For example, it is interesting to note that the word Pearlescent asked about can mean "accuse" as well as "inform". That adds more possibilities to the text.

Pearlescent, I myself have never had an experience of Yi giving me "non-answers". There have been some times when I have felt I was being told, "Stop asking so much." But I did not receive hexagram 4 in those situations. One time I received H 29.5 and "got it" that Yi was saying, "You've asked enough questions for now." It felt kind rather than chastising. Another time I received H 57.3 and had the sense of Yi saying "enough already!" as more of an admonishment. But that is not what those lines always mean for me. Sometimes I receive them and understand that I am being told something other than "enough" or "stop pressing so impatiently" --- something related to the question in a different way. Instead of being absolute, the meaning is contextual. At least that is how it is for me.

I am curious about a word in the phrase, "The first consultation speaks clearly." Are there other possibilities for the word "consultation"? Is it possible that while the text sometimes may mean "don't keep asking the same question --- look at the answer I already gave you" that it sometimes means something else?

I have many internal voices and my "not knowing" is often a time when I am confused about which of those voices is the one most aligned with "higher self". This "higher self" is the "first consultation" that speaks clearly. The "second" and "third" are like "inner lawyers" who give bad advise or sabotage me with their doubts, expectations, or denials. I suppose I am interpreting the Yi Jing through the lens of my own philosophy. But how can that be avoided?

 

[Pearlescent]

Another time I received H 57.3 and had the sense of Yi saying "enough already!" as more of an admonishment. But that is not what those lines always mean for me. Sometimes I receive them and understand that I am being told something other than "enough" or "stop pressing so impatiently" --- something related to the question in a different way. Instead of being absolute, the meaning is contextual. At least that is how it is for me.

I am curious about a word in the phrase, "The first consultation speaks clearly." Are there other possibilities for the word "consultation"? Is it possible that while the text sometimes may mean "don't keep asking the same question --- look at the answer I already gave you" that it sometimes means something else?

I've wondered the same thing as I've had similar experiences. I think the most recent was 27.1, I tend to get that a lot when I'm apprehensive about asking a question I know I probably shouldn't, I could either figure out myself or it is somewhat careless or perhaps immature, but I got this line as a response to something incredibly genuine that I believed I did need help with, It made me wonder if there is another possible application of this line that I'm not aware of yet, or it could be as simple as my initial understasnding of the translation. Sometimes I wish there was a book or documentary or something that goes really, really deep into the first records of the Yi's use and history of each line, like the literal oracle consultations of the ancient Chinese diviners and how each line played out for them when the Yi was being written and developed, though the Yi itself lends everything to those experiences like the Zhou and shang wars and how they played out I wish there was something from that time that spoke much deeper on the subject, and delved deep into the stories from history that carried the energy of each line... Something much more than what we currently have available, or at least what I know of.

 

[Pearlescent]

My personal theory on the process of divination is that in the early days there were indicators both about the situation and the divination itself.

That makes all the sense in the world, even presently with the coin method I find it especially mind bogglinv when the Yi not only answers my question but then state of mind in which I asked it, such as in line 51.2, the subject is asking in a state of shock, or at least I was when I recieved this line, and yet the answer to my question is also present, what to do, and what to expect. It's fascinating how the Yi can say so much so simply, everything fitting perfectly into place.

However the Yi Jing we see is masked behind many layers of history and interpretation.

I almost mentioned how the Yi has been translated a lot like the bible over a long period of time, but I didn't because I don't want to offend anyone. Cjgait if you have a moment, do you know of anywhere I can see the rest of the direct translations of the characters for the text in hexagaram 4? I'd love to understand more how it came to be this in english

'Not knowing, creating success.
I do not seek the young ignoramus, the young ignoramus seeks me.
The first consultation speaks clearly.
The second and third pollute the waters,
Polluted, and hence not speaking.
Constancy bears fruit.’

* edit, I also have particular interest in the word ignoramus and what else that can be translated, as or what other meaning the character may carry

 

[Pearlescent]

Not often entirely unrelated I don't think...although I think it has happened. But what I have got are predictions or notifications of events to come that will have a bearing on the topic I ask about but which I know nothing of at the time of casting.

Yeah thats what Im thinking, it makes more sense to me to be in keeping with the nature of Yi, at least as I understand it. I definitely thought at first that I was receiving non answers, especially when I first started using the Yi I had a lot of problems going on and I was pretty obsessive so I'd ask and ask again about things, only now years later do I see what the answers were saying and for the most part they're all crystal clear. On an interesting note, although I wouldn't be the first to volunteer to participate, it would be interesting if a large group of people Cast the Yi so many times that it would be almost unthinkable to be able to understand the answers at that point, like hundreds of times in a row. Would any of them be 'non answers'? What patterns might emerge? I mean just food for thought. I wonder what the Yi would think about that.

The answer that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever is more like the long lost hard boiled sweet under the car seat. You can forget about it but it's still there. But one day, one fine day, it comes to light to be devoured in a whole different frame of mind to when it was first left under the seat. I'd always recommend walking away from answers and coming back to them anyway.

* well if they wrapped boiled sweets and answers are indeed often wrapped much like sweets

True, lol. I like your anectode.

 

[cjgait]

Here is a resource for the individual definitions of the text: http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&id=25067

 

[rosada]

I like the Wilhelm translation for hexagram 4:

"It is not I who seeks the young fool;
The young fool seeks me."

It seems that here we are being reminded that we need to have the proper attitude when consulting the oracle - which means we shouldn't be demanding or argumentative.

"At first oracle I inform him."

So that's it. We are being told the answer is in the very first answer - so stop asking.

"If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes I give no answer."

So we've been told very specifically to consult the I Ching with the attitude of one asking a favor, not with the attitude of one who is in position to argue if the answers seem unsatisfactory.

"Perseverance furthers."

The seeker should continue to look at the first answer and thus the advice in the Image:

"Thus the superior man fosters his character by thoroughness in all that he does." That is, be more thorough in the study of the first answer.

Again, the I Ching has given its answer, now its up to the seeker to thoroughly investigate it.

But what if you investigate it thoroughly to the best of your ability and it still makes no sense? Most likely this is because you have asked a question about something you have no previous experience with so the answer given doesn't ring any bells.
Thus if we look at the lines they seem to be describing a person who lacks experience and how it is necessary to get out in the world and have experiences.

4.1 He doesn't know and the only way he'll ever learn is to try.
4.2 He knows enough to handle the basics.
4.3 But he can be pulled off course.
4.4 And he has no guide or previous experience to rely on.

So then we come to a major line on the right attitude to have when consulting the I Ching and the promise that if our attitude is right we will be helped!!!

4.5 AN INEXPERIENCED PERSON WHO SEEKS INSTRUCTION IN A CHILDLIKE AND UNASSUMING WAY IS ON THE RIGHT PATH, FOR THE MAN DEVOID OF ARROGANCE WHO SUBORDINATES HIMSELF TO HIS TEACHER WILL CERTAINLY BE HELPED.

Plus, you don't ever have to feel bad for making a mistake or for asking for help:

4.6 Don't over react if you make mistakes, just try to not repeat them.

Further thoughts...
Consider the Image/advice of hexagram 2 "The superior man with breadth of character carries the outer world." This means a person of wide experience can understand and deal with whatever life throws at him. However, what happens when the world sends you an experience unlike any you've ever had before? Then we come to hex.3 and Difficulty at the Beginning, which describes the attempts to bring order out of this new confusion. But because there is no previous experience all efforts end in chaos and bloody tears flow. So what to do? Hex.4 - well you're a young fool and well, with some people if they don't know you just can't tell'em - they just have to go out in the world and find out for themselves.
---

When I get hex.4 it's often a signal that information will be released on an "as need to know" basis. Like I already have the answer but need to complete something before I understand. Like maybe asking, "When will the company arrive?" and getting 4 reminds me that I have plenty of work in front of me to do to get ready for company and needn't be worrying about that next question. "Be thorough in doing what you know you can do and then we'll tell you the next step."

 

[Lavalamp]

When I get hex.4 it's often a signal that information will be released on an "as need to know" basis. Like I already have the answer but need to complete something before I understand. Like maybe asking, "When will the company arrive?" and getting 4 reminds me that I have plenty of work in front of me to do to get ready for company and needn't be worrying about that next question. "Be thorough in doing what you know you can do and then we'll tell you the next step."

Well - I used to feel like I was being chastised when I received 4. But these days I take the commentaries which are often heavy handed Confucianist Grandfather stuff with a larger grain of salt, which makes understanding the hex a little easier, for me at least. The hex is about learning, and the formality in Chinese culture between Master and Student was pretty severe. Think Master Pai Mei in "Kill Bill." Be ready to have your knuckles rapped with his pipe if he is displeased in any way with your attitude. Or a knuckle upside your head. These guys were a lot harsh.

All the stuff about "At first oracle I inform him. If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes I give no answer." I now take as commentary rather than as an image, and this has helped me to understand the hex is about learning and having an open attitude through which one builds success. Life is after all, all about learning to learn. This is a big deal. The heavy handed Confucianist tradition is not always helpful in advancing the learning process, especially for Western educated people. Here' I think it quite often gets in the way of the learning process, or it turns the student of the Yi unconsciously into a Confucianist.

If I got 4 I would not think the Yi was telling me to shut up. Maybe telling me to consider my learning attitude, but not to stop asking questions. It is not the number but the quality of questions that matters, I think. The Yi will answer if you actually look at it as a conversation. I don't get it telling me "just stop," but I don't ask the same question over and over again either, I ask a progression of questions, as in a conversation. And find the Yi is pretty generous in expounding fairly endlessly on a myriad of things, and not nearly as harsh as the commentary might indicate.

- LL

 

[Lavalamp]

"When will the company arrive?"

Hex 4 unchanging.
Who knows? It could be any time. But we should be ready when they do get here.

- LL

 

[hmesker]

do you know of anywhere I can see the rest of the direct translations of the characters for the text in hexagaram 4? I'd love to understand more how it came to be this in english

'Not knowing, creating success.
I do not seek the young ignoramus, the young ignoramus seeks me.
The first consultation speaks clearly.
The second and third pollute the waters,
Polluted, and hence not speaking.
Constancy bears fruit.’

This is Hilary's translation so you might ask her how she arrived at this translation.
If you are interested in some background behind the Chinese text you can also check my translation notes: http://www.yjcn.nl/wp/translation-notes/.

 

[hilary]

This is Hilary's translation so you might ask her how she arrived at this translation

Well, I think it is mostly quite unremarkable and more or less in line with tradition. Not far from Wilhelm nor even from Harmen's translation notes for this one. The only somewhat original part is 'pollute the waters' for 渎 instead of 'importunity' or 'confusing' etc. I chose this because a) the meanings include 'disrespectful' and 'desecration/ blasphemy' and b) it also has the literal meaning 'ditch, drain' and the water radical. I must have been trying to capture both 'muddying the waters' (ie causing confusion) and also 'ritual pollution' - looking for English words that still have some resonance for interaction with the sacred. Maybe I should have omitted 'waters'.

Oh, and 'clearly'. Not sure why I put that in - maybe it just sounds odd to have nothing but, 'The first consultation speaks.'

'Speaks' is a good old-fashioned word for what an oracle does, I think - another one with some resonance. Of course, the only way to tell if it has 'spoken' is to attend to our own experience, whether we feel 'spoken to' (after plenty of slow, deep listening, of course). I think 'the second and third times pollute the waters'/ 'create confusion' (etc) describes what happens to us, much more than anything the oracle does.

* edit, I also have particular interest in the word ignoramus and what else that can be translated, as or what other meaning the character may carry

Harmen has 'ignorant, confused, dark, hidden', and you can see some possible etymological roots to the idea at LiSe's site - also on this page. There's the idea of something covered over and made dull - 'beclouded'. Also the possibility that the cover might be hiding/ protecting (like the outer trigram?), though I don't believe the protagonist of the hexagram donned this cover himself.