Memorizing Hexigram 17. Sui / Following

[rosada]

Wow, so much rich stuff here!

Listener, I love your correlation with the Kings and Herod. Amazing!

I woke up this morning thinking as you do Trojan, that the distractions are primarily our own disinclination to release, rather than a subversive outside influence. So it was really fun to plug in this morning and see you too had recognized that possibility. Makes me feel I'm not just lost in space here if we had both FOLLOWED the path and arrived at a similar conclusion.

Chris! Your #82 post said it really clearly, IMO. Not only that, but for the first time I was able to FOLLOW your thinking all the way through to the end in post #90. cool.

Martin, I've been back to fooling around with the tarot cards again:

Astrology:..Mars.........Cancer...........Venus......Capricorn

Tarot:......Tower.......Chariot..........Empress....Devil

Meaning:...Energizing..Journey Home..Comfort....Hell.

Suggests to me a frantic chariot race trying to beat the devil to the finish line. Or to put it in the more encouraging tones of Frank r's post:

17.4 May you be in heaven an hour before the devil know's you're dead.

One more thought on hex.3, dobro. 3.4 states:
Whoever hunts deer in the forest without a forester
Only loses his way in the forest.
The superior man understands the signs of the time
And prefers to desist.
To go on brings humiliation.

I'm seeing this as underscoring how dangerous it is to become side tracked when on a mission. If one doesn't stay on the path, follow the leader, there is a very real potential of being lost in the woods. Real life example: Last night we went to a gathering. The friends wanted us to stay longer, my husband (and driver) was ready to leave. I would have liked to have stayed mainly because my friends wanted me to, but then I would have had to find a ride home. So I left without protest. Once having made the decision, I realized we were very wise to leave when we did as we not only got home safe and sound, but it started to snow. Waiting longer would have been unfortunate. So The Difficulty was only At The Beginning. Once I'd made the decision the rest was easy.

 

[tinas]

I have been following this thread pretty closely, since I received 17 in a casting only a week ago. It was only the 2nd time I ever received it, in the 10 years or so that I have been consulting the IC, and each time it was regarding my involvement with a man whose actions have displayed immaturity (running hot/cold, breaking promises, pulling disappearing acts, etc).

Both times I've ended my relationships with these people, but I knew 17 meant this was for the best. In 17.2, I've found that if "I stayed with the little boy, I would lose the great man", for me this had meant I would lose something of myself in staying with them (such as my self-respect, dignity).

Perhaps it is just a coincidence (if there is such a thing) that both of these men were born in the year of the rooster, and with my apologies to other roosters on the board and elsewhere, as I don't want to generalize, but I've found both of them to be high-maintenance in the attention-seeking department. They both had this perpetual need to flirt, fish for flattery, "crow" about their abilities and what a great catch they are. So again, I think of them in Wilhelm's 17.4 commentary: Only when a man is
completely free from his ego, and intent, by conviction, upon what is right
and essential, does he acquire the clarity that enables him to see through such
people, and become free of blame.

Well, just some personal experience I wanted to throw out there.

I wish everyone here happy holidays; I find you all brilliant and insightful (believe me--that was NOT insincere flattery : )

T

 

[dobro p]

As with hex 3 overall, initial difficulties associated with 'sprouting' etc will be overcome. The following nature of 17 + the foresight/enthusiasm of 16 combined with the difficulties of 03 reflect qualities mapped into the line comment I gave.

It's the *difficulties* associated with 3 that are involved in 17.4, of course. Thanks, Chris.

Line position 4 is 'ruled' by hexagram 16 and so covers foresight and associated enthusiasm for things to come.

Okay, I see how that can work. Question: does Hex 9 have any connection with how position 4 is seen?

 

[lightofreason]

Question: does Hex 9 have any connection with how position 4 is seen?

Sure, it is acceptable to interpret that way - if 16 rules the yang nature of line position 4then 9 rules the yin nature. In this context of 17.4 where line 4 becoming yin then we can consider 9 as an influence rather than 16. As 16 has a planning focus to achieve X, 9 works off small experiences and so small gains to achieve X and there is a stronger sense of self-interest in 9.

I recall a good association of 16 to the expections and nervous excitement of going to market to buy/sell - and so the rehersal of how one will sell or bargin etc. With 09 the small gains have a more universal intent in that they serve the purpose of being a foundation to build upon, to cultivate, and to then standupon and eventually get noticed, become influencial (wind in top).

As such 09 comes across as more political and it IS in the context of competitive exchange (heaven base, five-phase METAL) whereas 16 is in the context of unconditional filtration (five-phase EARTH) - what happens, despite all plans, is still ultimately determined by the local context but a good plan and a positive attitude helps! (the 'negative' side of 16, or more so the emotional aspect is of dealing with issues of surprise coming out of, operating in a context of, fear - we get around that by use of foresight, planning, good attitude etc. For 09 the emotional focus is on anger (competitiveness, heaven base) within which is operating anticipation (wind focus).

With all of the emotional mappings, the negative turn to positive, the positive to negative as we develop 'upwards'. Thus mountain in base represents grief but in top we become proactive, exploit the grief to become a source of learning quality control etc.
Fear (earth) in base becomes devotion to others in top as we use the group to protect us. Keep going and devotion to others becomes absolute trust in another/others and so dualmindedness as compared to heaven's focus on singlemindedness.

However, given the focus on energy content in the binary sequence as mapping potentials vs actuals, where potentials is all 000000 and adding yang actualises, hex 09 rules the aggregate of yang lines 1,2,3,5,6 as 16 only covers line 4. Thus hex 9 is all lines excluding 4 and so excludes the nature of 16 (from a wave perspective we can interpret the qualities of 9 as the sum of 24,7,15,8,23 - see comments on this in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveInterpret.html )

All of that said, given the wave format we can map in the 16/9 where the sine wave covers the pair and so we can show a relation to a pair operating on a line position such that 09 covers the single yin value as 16 covers the single yang value - so one will detect a commonality in interpretations either by yang only actualisations or by issues of exaggerating(yang) or dampening (yin) a line position.

If we want to focus on the qualities of the hexagram, the XOR work gives us 17 XOR 16 (16-ness of 17) = 03; and 17 XOR 9 (9-ness of 17) = 50.

the issues in all of this are with the limited set of categories available in the I Ching (64 to 4096) and so all perspectives are described in the same language. Thus the 17.4 mapping of 17-03 gives us a dodecagram format where the quality under consideration is this composite of two hexagrams and so 100110100010

Focus on XOR and we stay at the level of 64 hexagrams, we are using the IC to describe a quality of a hexagram, here being the 16-ness of 17 that is described by analogy to 03. In other words we have not moved to a dodecagram perspective. (XOR at the dodecagram level works the same way but with 12-lines not 6)

Chris.

 

[rosada]

17.5

*Nine in the fifth place means:
Sincere in the good. Good Fortune.

Every man must have something he follows - something that serves him as a lodestar.
He who follows with conviction the beautiful and the good may feel himself strengthened by this saying.

The place is correct and central.
The six at the top symbolizes the sage in retirement. The present line, the ruler, follows him. The ruler's correct and central character safeguards him against conforming to those beneath him, from whom no good would come to him.
-Wilhelm

He maketh my way perfect (II Samuel 22:33) Integrate yourself around the conviction of God's guidance and the expectancy of the best, and you will reap a rich harvest.
-Murphy

Trust in your Higher Self to provide for you, and it will.
-Leichtman

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 17.5

Line 5
"When in accord with one's belief, one moves towards the ideal and away from the past."

with/from following comes enlightening. As one gets more and more involved with what is followed so it works like a light and so attracts (line position 5 ruled by hex 8) to a degree it elicits idealisation, an increased metaphysical focus. This works to such a degree any reflection upon the past is like looking on an alien landscape and one wonders how all of that past was ever possible in that any connectivity is increasingly cut (also gets into issues of being 'born again' - reflecting the re-birth element of thunder, the return of 24, the quality control re infrastructure of 27, the augmentation of 42 as we shift levels etc etc)

Chris.

 

[rosada]

I think the observation "..and away from the past" is key.
Thanks Chris, You lose me in your long posts but this was just right!

 

[rosada]

17.6

Six at the top means:
He meets with firm allegiance
And is still further bound.
The king introduces him
To the Western Mountain.

This refer to a man, an exhaulted sage, who has already put the turmoil of the world behind him. But a follower appears who understands him and is not to be put off. So the sage comes back into the world and aids the other in his work. Thus there develops an eternal tie between the two.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 17.6

Line 6
"Having established a following, one attempts to retire but will be called back."

you can check out but you can never leave ... (hotel california?)

 

[Sparhawk]

IC+ 17.6

Line 6
"Having established a following, one attempts to retire but will be called back."

you can check out but you can never leave ... (hotel california?)

Sounds like a line in the "Godfather III"...

L

 

[martin]

I'm behind ......

17.5 Mars in Leo (or house 5), Venus in Aquarius (11)

Mars in Leo/5 is strong-willed and can be dominant and autocratic. 'My will is law'.
But inside the other-directed and democratic Venus in Aquarius/11 this power is not used for selfish purposes. It serves a 'greater good'.

 

[martin]

17.6 Mars in Virgo (or house 6), Venus in Pisces (12)

Venus goes to a higher frequency. Universal love, agape.
Mars serves.

"I vow to liberate all beings, without number."
(Bodhisattva vow)

 

[martin]

Found this on the internet ..

May I be a guard for those who are protectorless,
A guide for those who journey on the road;
For those who wish to go across the water,
May I be a boat, a raft, a bridge.

May I be an isle for those who yearn for landfall,
And a lamp for those who long for light;
For those who need a resting place, a bed,
For all who need a servant, may I be a slave.

May I be the wishing jewel, the vase of plenty,
A word of power, and the supreme remedy.
May I be the trees of miracles,
And for every being, the abundant cow.

Like the great earth and the other elements,
Enduring as the sky itself endures,
For the boundless multitude of living beings,
May I be the ground and vessel of their life.

Thus, for every single thing that lives,
In number like the boundless reaches of the sky,
May I be their sustenance and nourishment
Until they pass beyond the bounds of suffering

 

[mudpie]

love that martin. It can also be found in the Kwan Yin oracle by karcher

 

[heylise]

View attachment 163
Hexagram 17
Two hands, a tool and meat.
The tool and meat together means mashed meat.

 

[Sparhawk]

 

[amy luisa]

Older man?

The only thing an older man can do for a young girl - is pay her rent.:bows:

 

[Trojina]

in 17 the older man follows the young girls lead

Wilhelm says "The joyous is the youngest daughter while the arousing is the eldest son. An older man defers to a young girl and shows her consideration. By this he moves her to follow him"

 

[meng]

The only thing an older man can do for a young girl - is pay her rent.:bows:

Assuming older is synonymous with mature (they aren't always), he may open doors for her to pass through first (paying her rent), and in this sense may follow her through the doorway, but it was by his lead that they passed through. That is, if one follows the example given in 17, particularly that which is demonstrated through trigrams. He defers to her as an act of kindness, maturity and wisdom, not an act of submission or subservience. Ah! but there are those cases, aren't there, where the young woman makes a clown out of the mature man, all too often. That's a sad thing. But that's more in line with 44 than in 17.

The personality components incorporated within the eldest son (not the old man of the family, heaven, but the mature son, thunder), and that of the young woman is a wonderful expression of the complexities involved with inner matters of sensual vs ethical priorities, and how one incorporates a balance of those into our nature.

 

[meng]

...so that what follows (in this inner way) is trustworthy to follow.