Memorizing the I Ching: 33. Tui / Retreat

[rosada]

Hi maremaria!
Certainly "One must not wish to undertake anything" can be seen as an admonishment not to become distracted, but Wilhelm emphasizes 33.1 being a time when one doesn't wish to undertake anything because to do so would attract attention:
"Here one is at the back, in immediate contact with the pursuing enemy. This is dangerous, and under such circumstances it is not advisable to undertake anything. Keeping still is the easiest way of escaping from the threatening danger."

In using the story of Jesus and Peter to illustrate this line, I was meaning Peter was trying to withdraw from the situation by denying he was a disciple. So the others he was joining with (13) would have been the general public. Perhaps 33.1 has a feeling of Hiding in the Crowd.

 

[Trojina]

Wilhelms commentary makes not much sense to me in that i've never been able to relate 33.2 to an smaller/inferior person clinging to a greater - so I'm not sure if 33.2 means you're stuck with something whether you like it or not ,the attachment is too strong to withdraw, or it just means you hold fast to your withdrawal despite anyones attempts to retrieve you ? Or is it being put under pressure, tied to do something ? Who is holding who fast ?

Can people stop withdrawing from my question 33.1 is sooo yesterday - what do you think 33.2 means - apart from Wilhelms commentary

 

[Sparhawk]

Can people stop withdrawing from my question 33.1 is sooo yesterday - what do you think 33.2 means - apart from Wilhelms commentary

Geeze, so impatient... It only took over 90 messages to reach 33.2...

Do you remember those cowboy movies where the apaches would tie up someone to a post and and then would decorate their necks with a necklace made of wet rawhide? This form of torture, and eventual demise of the victim, worked on the principle that, as the rawhide dries, it shrinks. Well, a more practical use of this the principle is to bond and fasten parts, such as cart parts, etc. The use of ox hide in 33.2 seems to point to bonds that only get stronger and tighter as time passes.

I'm reading another curious book that our friend Jesed pointed out to me: Chinese Leadership Wisdom from the Book of Changes by Mun Kin Chok. The line statement he uses for 33.2, and for this I mean his interpretation of the line, reads: "Make a good relationship unshakable"

 

[Trojina]

Interesting, thanks I'm wondering though how the line meaning fits with the overall meaning of 33 ? If a bond gets tighter where does withdrawal come in ?

 

[rosada]

In an effort to understand and memorise the individual lines I decided to read up on the trigrams. By exploring what the first line of the trigram Ken means in all of the hexagrams I got a stronger sence of what it means in 33.1.

First and most importantly, Ken means KEEPING STILL. So anytime you have Ken in a hexagram you will be dealing with issues involving keeping still. Next, we are dealing with the first position, the very lowest of the six, so we are in a position that has no visibility, and therefore the appropriate behavior is to STAY HIDDEN. This low position is also without power so we have a sence of DANGER. Finally, I read each of the hexagrams that begin with Ken to see look for these themes of Beginning, Danger and Keeping Still.

15.1
Here we focus on the fact that when one is in circumstances of DANGER, one ought KEEP STILL and just go about doing what they need to do Modestly - quickly and quietly.

31.1
Now the focus is on the fact the Influence is just at the BEGINNING and therefore NOT VISIBLE.

33.1
Unlike hex. 15 where one can go about what they need to do quietly, here the DANGER is so pronounced one is advised to KEEP STILL and do nothing at all.

39.1
Somewhat similar to 33.1, during the time of Obstruction one is advised to retreat, KEEP STILL and WAIT.

52.1
Here along with KEEPING STILL one is advised to stay vigilant, to be careful that keeping still doesn't lead to becoming distracted, drifting off. Perhaps this is what Maremaria was sencing in her post #89.

53.1
Here the emphasis is on the DANGER inherent in JUST STARTING OUT.

56.1
The Wanderer is likewised warned of the DANGERS of being the new kid on the block.

62.1
This hexagram is about attention to details, aiming for perfection. Misfortune comes from exhausting oneself, trying to be perfect too soon, when one really ought just KEEP STILL and not TRY TO DO TOO MUCH AT THE BEGINNING.

So, what do we learn from all this? It seems that with Ken in all the hexagrams in which it appears, over and over the theme is one of being in a DANGEROUS vulnerable position and how one ought avoid attracting attention.

--
Yes, Trojan it IS time to move ahead. Seems like I'm clinging to 33.1 with a yellow oxhide and no one can tear me loose...

 

[Trojina]

you did post 33.2 ages ago but everyones got hung up on 33.1 for some reason - ah well i shall practise the virtue of patience it will be good for my character i suppose

 

[Sparhawk]

you did post 33.2 ages ago but everyones got hung up on 33.1 for some reason - ah well i shall practise the virtue of patience it will be good for my character i suppose

Perhaps a spanking to match the boots and whip??

To answer your question, let's think that at times of retreat you don't leave behind those that are bonded to you...

 

[charly]

you did post 33.2 ages ago but everyones got hung up on 33.1 for some reason...

Trojan:

Maybe due to the pregnancy of the «tail» image: «Retreating as a dog, with the tail between the legs», «The tail wagging the dog».

33.2 chinese characters | pinyin | W/B | other:

執 | zhi2 | hold fast | grasp , catch
之 | zhi1 | him | it
用 | yong4 | with | using
黃 | huang2 | yellow | yellow
牛 | niu2 | oxhide | bull
之 | hi1 | ... | 's
革 | ge2 | ... | hide, leather, skin
莫 | mo4 | no one | none, nobody
之 | zhi1 | him | it
勝 | sheng4 | can | able
說 | shuo1 | tear ... loose | speak, persuade (shui), joy (yue)

W/B is forcing the translation for fitting to the previous image of the Superior Man (JunZi) and the Inferior Man (XiaoRen) attached to him.

The last character 說 shuo by Sears:

shuo1: to speak / to talk / to utter / to say / to explain / to clarify / a description / a narration / a statement / a theory / to scold / to talk to / a talking-to / a scolding
...
shui4: to persuade / to influence
...
yue4: to delight / to please
http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=說&submitButton1=Etymology

Many options for 說:
Nobody able to persuade him. (to whom?)
Nobody able to explain it. (something undescribable? the Luis'indian ordeal?)
Nobody able to enjoy it. (ordeal-two?)

The seccond fits better for me, to explain, the 1st. character in the middle column:

from: http://www.answers.com/topic/shuowen-jiezi

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

 

[Trojina]

Perhaps a spanking to match the boots and whip??

To answer your question, let's think that at times of retreat you don't leave behind those that are bonded to you...

I see so its like if you go up the mountain for spiritual retreat you have to take the cat because he just won't let go i actually had a cat like that. You would of course have to leave your boots and whip behind....ah though they mind come in handy for self flagellation for impure thoughts

 

[Trojina]

Thanks Charly I await the next installment

 

[Sparhawk]

I see so its like if you go up the mountain for spiritual retreat you have to take the cat because he just won't let go i actually had a cat like that. You would of course have to leave your boots and whip behind....ah though they mind come in handy for self flagellation for impure thoughts

Hey, I'd take my dog with me... As for self flagellation, well..., it does a lot for my soul but nothing for my impure thoughts. They have a soul of their own!

 

[rosada]

I continue to be excited about looking at the other hexagrams containing the same trigram - here Ken, Mountain, Keeping Still - to get a clearer sence of what the change lines mean.
In 31. Influence, the change in the second place discribed a person without influence being dragged along, forced to follow the desires of others.
In 33. Retreat, the change in the second line discribes an opposite situation, the fellow follows along, clinging, refusing to let go.

 

[maremaria]

Still confused about who is the “he” and who is the “him” ?

If the “he” is the “superior” then he holds the “inferior” fast and so tight that he can move or act ?
Or in an retreat we should immobilize (or control ) the inferior part of us ? Maybe control him in a “yellow” way because we need some of his own traits since he is one of the extremes ?
Retreat should be somewhere between excess and deficiency ?



Maria

 

[rosada]

Maria,
According to Wilhelm,
Yellow is the color of the middle, It indicates that which is correct and in line with duty.
Oxhide is strong and not to be torn.
While the superior men retreat and the inferior men press after them, THE INFERIOR MAN REPRESENTED HERE HOLDS ON SO FIRMLY AND TIGHTLY TO THE SUPERIOR MEN THAT THE LATTER CANNOT SHAKE HIM OFF. And because he is in quest of what is right and so strong of purpose, he reaches his goal. Thus the line confirms what is said in the Judgement: "In what is small" - here equivalent to "in the inferior man" - "perseverance furthers."
A similar idea is suggested in the story of Jacob's battle with the angel of Peniel: "I will not let the go, except thou bless me" (Gen. 32:26).
--Wilhelm

 

[dobro p]

If you consider Lofting's idea that the second line is always some kind of expression of 7-ness in every hexagram, and if you see the core idea of 7 as some kind of force, then 33.2 ain't no inferior man. The force would then be seen in the strength of the connection that can't be broken, even in the time of withdrawal. Something that might reinforce this idea is that it's difficult (for me, anyway) to see much 44 in 33.2. I mean, where's the 'not uniting with an attractive force' in the 'connection that can't be broken in a time of withdrawal'?

 

[rosada]

I've haven't been well lately so if people want to continue on the Memorizing threads without me that would be great. Otherwise I hopefully I will be back in the game before too long. I have a problem with seizures.

 

[Tohpol]

I've haven't been well lately so if people want to continue on the Memorizing threads without me that would be great. Otherwise I hopefully I will be back in the game before too long. I have a problem with seizures.

Oh dear. Get well soon Rosada...

Here we are then, let's get this ball rolling:

Nine in the third place means:
A halted retreat
Is nerve-wracking and dangerous.
To retain people as men- and maidservants
Brings good fortune.

"When it is time to retreat it is both unpleasant and dangerous to be held back,
because then one no longer has freedom of action. In such a case the only
expedient is to take into one's service, so to speak, those who refuse to let one
go, so that one may at least keep one's initiative and not fall helplessly under
their domination. But even with this expedient the situation is far from
satisfactory--for what can one hope to accomplish with such servants?"


Topal

 

[Trojina]

Sorry to hear that Rosada, hope things soon improve for you

 

[charly]

I've haven't been well lately so if people want to continue on the Memorizing threads without me that would be great. Otherwise I hopefully I will be back in the game before too long. I have a problem with seizures.

Hi, Rosada:

I was out last 10 days. I hope you can solve your problems and come back soon. If we can do something to help you let us know.

Best wishes,

Charly

 

[charly]

... To retain people as men- and maidservant brings good fortune...
...the situation is far from satisfactory--for what can one hope to accomplish with such servants?...

Topal:

Wich do you think could be the reason why W/B after having rendered that to retain servants «brings good fortune» add «far from satisfactory»?

Maybe they think the Yi was wrong?

Why they said «such servants»?

The chinese text says: «畜chu 臣chen 妾quie 吉ji»

Some of the meanings:

1) 畜chu: cattle, domestic animals | livestock, possessions, ranch ... (to retain for W/B)
2)臣 chen: minister, vassal, servant ... (men for W/B)
3) 妾qie: concubine, 2nd. wife ... (maidservants for W/B)
4)吉ji: lucky... (good fortune for W/B)

Maybe the advice was «if you'r tied to retreat or conceal, better with your preferred toys», like kings.

You know that ancient kings (not only chinese kings) used to go to his last hiden place with their preferred toys, including animals, servants and wives.

What can they (kings) hope to accomplish with such servants? They hope to retain life privileges after they had died. The best companions for a king, thus: «lucky».

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Still confused about who is the “he” and who is the “him” ?
If the “he” is the “superior” then he holds the “inferior” fast and so tight that he can move or act ? Or in an retreat we should immobilize (or control ) the inferior part of us ? ...

María:

All is relative. Superior and Inferior can be the same with a little difference.

In the batte when the Superior (officials) stays firm and the Inferior (troops) retreats last ones are called traitors and risk their heads.

But when the Inferior stays firm and the Superior retreats, this is called strategy if the officials are smart enough and can be honored.

The same rule is applied to Superior an Inferior inside us: the Superior's retreat is called prudence, the Inferioir's retreat is called fear, if not something worse.

No matters who's who.

Yours,

Charly

 

[Tohpol]

Topal:

Wich do you think could be the reason why W/B after having rendered that to retain servants «brings good fortune» add «far from satisfactory»?

Maybe they think the Yi was wrong?

Why they said «such servants»?

The chinese text says: «畜chu 臣chen 妾quie 吉ji»

Some of the meanings:

1) 畜chu: cattle, domestic animals | livestock, possessions, ranch ... (to retain for W/B)
2)臣 chen: minister, vassal, servant ... (men for W/B)
3) 妾qie: concubine, 2nd. wife ... (maidservants for W/B)
4)吉ji: lucky... (good fortune for W/B)

Maybe the advice was «if you'r tied to retreat or conceal, better with your preferred toys», like kings.

You know that ancient kings (not only chinese kings) used to go to his last hiden place with their preferred toys, including animals, servants and wives.

What can they (kings) hope to accomplish with such servants? They hope to retain life privileges after they had died. The best companions for a king, thus: «lucky».

Yours,

Charly

Hi Charly,

This is a line that has always been difficult for me to understand. But I tend to see these "servants" and "hangers on" as a means to an end. You have to try and adapt to the situation as best you can and retain the "services" of people, places and a situation that may have worked in the past but that must change when the time is right. In other words, it's not "satisfactory" to do this, but it must be done nevertheless to maintain a strategic withdrawal otherwise everything could get worse. It's all about adapting no? Kinda like using akido. Not sure if I have that right...

Topal

 

[Trojina]

Hi Charly,

This is a line that has always been difficult for me to understand. But I tend to see these "servants" and "hangers on" as a means to an end. You have to try and adapt to the situation as best you can and retain the "services" of people, places and a situation that may have worked in the past but that must change when the time is right. In other words, it's not "satisfactory" to do this, but it must be done nevertheless to maintain a strategic withdrawal otherwise everything could get worse. It's all about adapting no? Kinda like using akido. Not sure if I have that right...

Topal

Thats exactly how I understand it. I think its about times when practical matters hold you back and you must concede to their necessity - they are your servants but have this power at a time you want to be on your way. I've found these 'servants' are your way of getting what you need as in money, shelter something necessary. You don't want to have to rely on these ways but you have no choice at this time, as Topal says a means to an end.

I don't really understand how you see toys here Charly

 

[Tohpol]

Just thinking more on this. With 33.3 there is adapting to the demands of the time while withdrawing and with 25.3 there is Wilhelm's: "we must accommodate ourselves to the demands of the time, otherwise unexpected misfortune overtakes us" which is the same except it is a disentangling, while remaining in amongst it I guess; being innocent without going over board. Again practicalities and "nuts and bolts" reality which seems to often characterize line 3. I compare the two because I just got 25.3 regarding work/direction.

Topal

 

[maremaria]

Got 33.3 >12 about a situation some time ago.
In a retreat keep the "servants" that want to serve your purpose (good fortune) ....and fire the servants that want to be served (far from satisfactory ?) , because they bare shame (12.3 ?)
It make sence then (to me)

Maria

 

[charly]

... I tend to see these "servants" and "hangers on" as a means to an end. You have to try and adapt to the situation as best you can and retain the "services" of people, places and a situation that may have worked in the past but that must change when the time is right. In other words, it's not "satisfactory" to do this, but it must be done nevertheless to maintain a strategic withdrawal otherwise everything could get worse...Topal

Hi, Topal:

I undestand the point, compatible with W/B version. I only wonder why this servants (cattle, ministers, concubines as the text says) are presented under so negative aspect.

In a withdrawal you need your best resources, the best for the time, the best you have. Can be not good under some aspects, but the bests you have. They are not a burden for you, but a help.

The text don't say that you have to discard them when you get your goals.

I think that you must be loyal with them. Thus, at the time of to choose your companions you will prefer firsth the loyals, as your pets, your ministers (if you are a king) or your wives (if you have more than one).

«Not satisfactory» is not in the text of the line. And why W/B don't call things by its name?

Yours,


Charly

 

[charly]

... as Topal says a means to an end. I don't really understand how you see toys here Charly

Hi, Troyan:

The yours is a valid point of view, much people agree with it. Time obligate.
But think: if you were the person in a subordinate position taken as a mean to an end and later discarded? How do you would feel? Maybe like a «toy».

When strategy obligates, when power obligates, people become toys.

Don't you agree?

Charly

 

[charly]

Just thinking more on this. With 33.3 there is adapting to the demands of the time while withdrawing and with 25.3 there is Wilhelm's: "we must accommodate ourselves to the demands of the time, otherwise unexpected misfortune overtakes us" which is the same except it is a disentangling, while remaining in amongst it I guess; being innocent without going over board. Again practicalities and "nuts and bolts" reality which seems to often characterize line 3. I compare the two because I just got 25.3 regarding work/direction.

Topal

Topal:

I also got 25.3 long ago, and think very much about the tied cow! I believe that the «cow» is a great captive resource, much to do with 33.3 indeed.

The cow is like an opportunity, good for action men, bad for sedentary people. If you own the cow, beware of opportunists. If you don't, be attentive to opportunities.

Yours,


Charly

 

[charly]

Got 33.3 >12 about a situation some time ago.
In a retreat keep the "servants" that want to serve your purpose (good fortune) ....and fire the servants that want to be served (far from satisfactory ?) ...

María:

I don't see you retreating!

You retained people who served you ad threw people who went to used you. This is normal included when you have not to retreat.

But if you have to retreat isn't good to be among loyal friends, like your dog, your hairdresser and your partner? is that «far from satisfactory» ?

Maybe the advice of 33.3 is: have always a plan-B, C, D... , think about the last retreat, like ancient kings.

Yours,


Charly

 

[Trojina]

Hi, Troyan:

The yours is a valid point of view, much people agree with it. Time obligate.
But think: if you were the person in a subordinate position taken as a mean to an end and later discarded? How do you would feel? Maybe like a «toy».

When strategy obligates, when power obligates, people become toys.

Don't you agree?

Charly

I see what you mean but I don't think the line is addressed to one who is in the 'subordinate' position and again I think the word 'innapropriate' is more fitting than 'inferior' or 'subordinate' at least in my experience - It is not that the situation or person in the supporting role is lesser in anyway it is just that its not really right or satisfactory for ones own purposes - but in itself it is not lesser.

If someone threw the line about me, lol, say asking 'can she help me 'I think the line would be saying 'well shes the best you can get at the moment' which doesn't mean I'm a worthless toy just that I'm not ideal for the purpose in this instance but needs must - probably many employers of mine may have thrown this line hmm yeah but when they can they'll get rid of me hah yes discard me like a toy I see what you mean