Memorizing the I Ching: 34. Ta Chuang / The Power of the Great

[rosada]

Six at the top means:
A goat butts against a hedge.
It cannot go backward, it cannot go forward.
Nothing serves to further.
If one notes the difficulty, this brings good fortune.

If we venture too far we come to a deadlock, unable to advance or to retreat, and whatever we do merely serves to complicate things further. Such obstinacy leads to insuperable difficulties. But if, realizing the situation, we compose ourselves and decide not to continue, everything will right itself in time.

 

[dobro p]

The time of Great Power is fading, so this sort of approach has a bad result. Turn on the lights, however, and awareness automatically! attracts good things. It's the mindless of the powerful approach, and not the power itself, that causes problems.

 

[rosada]

I think of information being given to us on an As Need to Know basis. 34.6 could be saying, you've gotten as far as you could on what you knew. Now it's time to be open to new understanding.

 

[dobro p]

Yup. But the goat didn't get stuck in the hedge because he went too far, he got stuck in the hedge because he stupidly and impulsively butted the hedge. He got stuck because of a lack of restraint of impulse, not because he persevered in something. But 34.6 seems to be saying that as soon as that stupid goat stuck in the hedge stops and REFLECTS, the important thing happens - awareness, and good fortune.

 

[Sparhawk]

Pffft! Is much simpler than that. The stupid goat got stuck in the hedge because it forgot it had horns. If you forget that there are things that can snag you in a situation, I thing that would give you some clues about this line.

 

[Sparhawk]

Speaking of stuck goats, I just saw today's Dilbert cartoon

 

[rosada]

I see the whole theme of 34 as being about coming into a situation with more force than the situation requires, and the eventual smoothing of the ruffled feathers. like in 33 we have RETREATed from a situation that was not suitable - like going too far out on a limb - and now have fallen back into a position that is more in harmony with inner consciousness.

Example a soul 33.Retreats from earth and goes to heaven. At first he does not recognize he is totally in the right place and starts by trying to make a strong impression...

34.1
Upon arriving the soul announces they have arrived, how glad they are to be here, how ready they are to pitch in and help..blah, blah, blah. As nobody shares this particular vision of heaven, nobody knows what the heck they are talking about, and it takes awhile for these strong misguided first impressions to mellow out.

34.2
Soul is certain they are right to be in Heaven, but it sure seems like the angels don't know how to run the place.

34.3
Soul starts arguing that they have a right to be admitted, that they've paid their dues blah, blah, blah.

34.4
Soul realizes that nobody is objecting, they ARE in. Welcome to heaven.

34.5
Soul realizes that anybody who wants to be in heaven is automatically in. No outside restrictions are holding you back.

34.6
Soul realizes they may have some problems of their own that have been holding them back.

 

[rosada]

Love the cartoon, Luis!

 

[charly]

I see the whole theme of 34 as being about coming into a situation with more force than the situation requires...

Rosada:

You'r right. Sometimes the situation reaquires less strength that is thought at firsth. Who kows how to recognize it has a Great Strength indeed.

I believe that this hexagram is not all about male goats but also about female persuasion.

From: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob25.htm​

34.6 Soul realizes they may have some problems of their own that have been holding them back.

To know beforehand his own limits is also a Great Strength.

Yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

I have noticed that while we have been focusing on 34. I have been coming in contact - through books - with an unusual number of "powerful" people and more importantly, powerful ideas, culminating with Stephen Hawking's "A BRIEFER History of Time" which is really exciting if like me you didn't understand his first book. Here he explains the ideas in more detail and you really do get it. Not only are the ideas fascinating, but the fun of discovering you can understand them is a total self-confidence boost. But the culminating lift off for 34.Power of the Great has for me been discovering the David Wilcock websites. If you're interested in this sort of thing, check out projectcamelot.org for transcripts of a fascinating interview. This fellow has a lot to say about UFO's, 2012 and just the changes in human consciousness happening as we speak. Trippy!

 

[charly]

Six at the top means:
A goat butts against a hedge.
It cannot go backward, it cannot go forward.
Nothing serves to further.
If one notes the difficulty, this brings good fortune.

If we venture too far we come to a deadlock, unable to advance or to retreat, and whatever we do merely serves to complicate things further. Such obstinacy leads to insuperable difficulties. But if, realizing the situation, we compose ourselves and decide not to continue, everything will right itself in time.

The chinese text, W/B, other sources:

羝di1: goat / billy goat, ram
羊yang2: [omitted] / sheep, lamb, ram → male lamb / tall ram
觸chu4: butts against / to beta, to knock → knocks
藩fan1: a hedge / fence, hedge → the fence
不bu4: ... / no, not, negative prefix
能neng2: it cannot / can, may, capable, able → unable
退tui4: go backward / retreat → to retreat
不bu4: ... / negative prefix, not, no,
能neng2: it cannot / can, may, capable, able → unable
遂sui4: go forward / forthwith, → to advance
无wu2: Nothing / no, not, without, avoid → no
攸you1: serves / distant, far → much
利li4: to further / benefit, profit → profitable
艱jian1: If one notes the difficulty / hard ,difficult → hard
則ze2: [omitted] / expresses contrast with a previous sentence → but
吉ji2: this brings good fortune / lucky → lucky

Some differences with W/B:

Why a goat, why not a ram?
Why so negative: «Nothing serves to further» instead of «No much profitable»?
«If one notes the difficulty» , why this licence? why not «hard but lucky»?

Maybe because the Ram was taken as a Scape-Goat an innocent animal burdened with the blame of others. Thus why not a Ram, it is easily associated with lamb → Jesus.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... The stupid goat got stuck in the hedge because it forgot it had horns...

Hi, Luis:

1st.: Do you meant that the goat thought to beat the hedge with the naked head? Maybe you're speaking of another goat or of another head. Goat heads have horns and the goat knows it very well.

2nd.: why do you think the goat(1) is stupid? He is only an animal looking for his freedom with the means that have at hand (his horns). If the goat is alone, maybe he gets nothing beating the hedge, but if he gets to beat at the weak point he can break the hedge and become free.

If all the goats beat the hedge it is sure thet will break it and get freedom for all them.

3rd.: line 6 says «unable to retreat, unable to advance» do you think it is applied to the goat? It is applied to the hedge, that cannot neither retreat nor advance, the hedge that cannot react. When the goat weakens he can retreat, when the goat recover his strength he can advance. The goat is a maoist goat, like the old man and the mountain.

Tha's why the same line ends «hard but lucky», for the goat, of course.

Un abrazo,

Charly



________________________
(1) the character «billy goat» functions as adjective before «lamb/sheep» → Ram

 

[Sparhawk]

1st.: Do you meant that the goat thought to beat the hedge with the naked head? Maybe you're speaking of another goat or of another head. Goat heads have horns and the goat knows it very well.

2nd.: why do you think the goat(1) is stupid? He is only an animal looking for his freedom with the means that have at hand (his horns). If the goat is alone, maybe he gets nothing beating the hedge, but if he gets to beat at the weak point he can break the hedge and become free.

Hola Charly,

Well, the line only speaks of 'one' goat, not of many that can attack the 'hedge' (1 a: a fence or boundary formed by a dense row of shrubs or low trees). Now, just picture the goat/ram, ramming against a dense hedge (pardon the redundancy). The horny head of the goat/ram will easily get through the first layer of foliage and branches but then it runs the risk of getting its horns stuck in it and unable to retreat and not having enough momentum to go through to the other side. Granted, there are many types of goats/rams and hedges, but, the image of a stuck goat/ram can be easily pictured. No goat will get stuck only by its ears, something more solid and unyielding is necessary for it to get stuck. The "stupid" adjective I used intended to be a humorous way to say that goats are stubborn in the pursue of their goals, even in the face of impossibility.

Un abrazo,

 

[charly]

...the line only speaks of 'one' goat, not of many that can attack the 'hedge'...

Luis:

The line speaks of Goat / Ram, it doesn't specify number, can be generic or it's uncertain if one or more. I know and undestand the image and I accepted it in the past. But now I believe that there are more than one way for undestand H.34 from the textual point of view.

... The "stupid" adjective I used intended to be a humorous way to say that goats are stubborn in the pursue of their goals, even in the face of impossibility...

Stubborn, why not persistent and resistant? It is the nature of the billy goat / ram to be so, it is his nature to fight for territory, supremacy and sexual opportunities.

People wanting to convince him not to pursue his goals maybe fears the possibility the hedge be broken. Interested advice given by the hedge (and goat / ram) owner.

What do you think about the 3rd. point?

Un abrazo,


Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

Charly,

The line speaks of Goat / Ram, it doesn't specify number, can be generic or it's uncertain if one or more. I know and understand the image and I accepted it in the past. But now I believe that there are more than one way for undestand H.34 from the textual point of view.

There is no textual or contextual indication of plurality in the line, whatsoever, and even in the terse Chinese text of the received Yijing there are inflexed ways to indicate such a thing:

上六 羝羊觸藩。不能退。不能遂。旡攸利。艱則吉。
shang4 liu4 di1 yang2 chu4 fan1 bu4 neng2 tui4 bu4 neng2 sui4 wu2 you1 li4 jian1 ze2 ji2

Thus, we must assume it is referring to a singular goat/ram.

Now, I'm not trying to interpret the line as generic interpretations can box us and they should remain open and contextual to a given question. I'm trying to visualize the simple act of a goat/ram getting stuck in a fence, how that can happen, and the "possible" use of such a metaphor in interpretations, without actually interpreting anything. Just brainstorming here...

Stubborn, why not persistent and resistant? It is the nature of the billy goat / ram to be so, it is his nature to fight for territory, supremacy and sexual opportunities.

We are splitting hairs but "persistent" works too, applied to a reasoning person, that is... In the context I'm thinking of, mindless stubbornness though, as in "unreasonably or perversely unyielding" according to one of the meanings of "stubborn," I believe applies better to an animal that has forsaken natural instinctual behavior and denotes an act whereby the subject "persists" in a course of action beyond the possibility of accomplishment. Mind you, a lot of us, "reasoning" humans, behave exactly the same...

People wanting to convince him not to pursue his goals maybe fears the possibility the hedge be broken. Interested advice given by the hedge (and goat / ram) owner.

What do you think about the 3rd. point?

Now, just how do you, by using reasoning, convince a goat/ram of anything? Do you see where the metaphor of the goat/ram, being stuck or not, goes from here as applied to a situation depicted by this line? There is no reasoning with it... The only one that can get the goat/ram out of that bind is itself or by being forced out by something it cannot control but be hopelessly at its mercy and under its power (i.e. its owner) The owner of the goat/ram is not there to convince it of anything but to coerce and/or force it.

Un abrazo,

 

[charly]

...The owner of the goat/ram is not there to convince it of anything but to coerce and/or force it...

Oh, Luis:

Your commitment with the standard version is hard.

I'm thinking in the ZhuanZi turtle. ZhuangZi could think what if he was the turtle. Cann't you thik what if you were the goat? And if the goat were yours? You go to use cohersion? Why if good for you it's not good for the goat?

I think, as many authors, he is a ram, not a goat. If you have a ram is because you want a ram as he is, if not better get a sheep or la lamb.

That the hedge can be breached is sure (see line 4), it's not impossible.

I believe the key is in the name of the ram: 羝di1 羊yang2

di is billy goat, ram
yang is sheep, lamb, has no mystery, but what about di?

Di is «strongly male» (1), english associations «billy goat», «billy club»...

Di has two components, at the left sheep/ram, at the right resist, oppose, go against (also the phonetic part).

Whithout the stroke of the base it is 氏shi, man bowing the head as in reverence, see a bone character:

From Sears: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=氏&submitButton1=Etymology

But with the stroke of the base it is 氐di, the seal character looks like an archer from infantry, with the feet in the soil:

From Sears: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=氐&submitButton1=Etymology

Thus 羝di1 is the sheep/lamb who resists, opposes, goes against → ram, the guy who bows the head and fight, the stubborn, men, we.

Rams are natural oppositors, people who resists (2), people who «makes his foot wide».

Don't you agree?

Un abrazo,

Charly
____________________
(1) «macho» in spanish, how do you say macho in english?
(2) «El que se tiene por hombre / Ande quiera hace pata ancha». José Hernández, Martín Fierro

 

[my_key]

(1) «macho» in spanish, how do you say macho in english?

RAMBO

 

[charly]

RAMBO

Good, Mike:

Synonym of gun (1), and you know what the gun means.

Yours,

Charly

________________________
(1)gun = 炮 bao, fire + bag !!!

 

[rosada]

I think it's interesting that while we have been forcusing on these last lines of 34 there has been a discussion going on over at Shared Readings concerning a person feeling betrayed when her married boyfriend called off the affair. The fact that he was breaking his wedding vows to be with her hadn't seemed so awful at the time, and it seems to me this could be an example of 34.5, "Loses the goat with ease, no remorse," a feeling that one is not required to live by society's rules. However, the man eventually left her and in a coldhearted fasion at that - the downside of living beyond the bounds of society's rules - even common curtesy is ignored. Now -34.6 like - the lady is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. If she forces things in any direction what so ever - demanding to see him or even refusing to see him - she only traps herself.
Guy Damian Knight says of this line, "If you realize your predicament and maintain a sence of inner harmony, the situation will untangle itself. You will be able to move forward again. Without inner composure, you will not be able to extricate yourself.
(Inner composure arises from a state of relaxation. This means not allowing external events and circumstances to create inner tensions.)"
So it seems we have a real life example here of 34.5 being, "You're in Heaven, you can do anything you want." and 34.6 being, "But you may not have the inner self discipline to handle living in a world of no restraints."

 

[Sparhawk]

Oh, Luis:

Your commitment with the standard version is hard.

The standard version, by some accounts, is perhaps close to 3000 years old... Bad habits die hard...

I'm thinking in the ZhuanZi turtle. ZhuangZi could think what if he was the turtle. Cann't you thik what if you were the goat? And if the goat were yours? You go to use cohersion? Why if good for you it's not good for the goat?

Coming from a country that raises and eats as much beef as my own, right next door to yours, you are too kind to livestock... . Of course I would use coercion and/or force to get the ram/goat out of its troubles if it was mine! And if it doesn't cooperate, it'll end up spread over the hot coals...

Is up to you, but, it occurs to me that if you continue thinking as a goat/ram, you'll be in trouble, specially if you are in a situation like the one described in 34.6... In this case, I believe it is better to be the observer than the subject, and that, I also believe, is one of the morals of the line. It is the type of situation where one can learn from observation, or, more precisely, "visualization and projection," to avoid falling in the same quandary the subject of the line finds itself.

I think, as many authors, he is a ram, not a goat. If you have a ram is because you want a ram as he is, if not better get a sheep or la lamb.

I don't see much genetic difference between a ram and a goat, other than observing that rams are stronger, have thicker skulls and sport more impressive horns. And they both will ram you if you give them a chance...

That the hedge can be breached is sure (see line 4), it's not impossible.

We are discussing line 6... As they say in the stock market, "Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results..."

Thus 羝di1 is the sheep/lamb who resists, opposes, goes against → ram, the guy who bows the head and fight, the stubborn, men, we.

Rams are natural oppositors, people who resists (2), people who «makes his foot wide».

Don't you agree?

Yes, I do, and those were some of the attributes I was thinking about in my assessment.

And "macho" is already universal, no translation necessary.

Un abrazo,

 

[Sparhawk]

and 34.6 being, "But you may not have the inner self discipline to handle living in a world of no restraints."

 

[charly]

RAMBO

Mike:

You make me think about a name for the goat/ram actor, some alternatives:

• Rambo the Ram, always with a gun.
• Billy the Goat, instead of billy goat
• Billy the Lamb, when he was little

Maybe his name is William, aka Rambo, aka The Goat, aka The Ram, aka The Lamb...
the hero with thousand faces.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

The standard version, by some accounts, is perhaps close to 3000 years old...

Luis:

My number don't reach 3.000, Confucius (551-479 BCE), many people thinks Confucius never used the Yi, the entanglement imagery arrive from Confucians, before Confucius maybe the story was about rulers and shepherds.

The character for entanglement could be read also as «to weaken» or as «excessive for a lamb», the ram is lost in the change (not in the ease), because the rule of change the lamb become tall ram, but the tall ram only can chage in something more weak, streght has a natural limit.

There are many stories out of the standard.

...Coming from a country that raises and eats as much beef as my own, right next door to yours, you are too kind to livestock...

You're alway thinking in the barbecue. It is said that «human nature is food and sex». Don't use coercion with the lamb, he still can lend you good services if alive. As Rosada says don't use too much force.

...if you continue thinking as a goat/ram, you'll be in trouble...

We are getting in trouble all the time, sometimes not for any fault of ours, but for the value of our furs, like foxes or panthers. I don't remember where I have read this. The wheel of fortune can turn and we could find ourselves fighting with the hedge like goats or rams.

Do you see, as me, the Martín Fierro's «pata ancha» in the old obstinate-lamb character?

Un abrazo,


Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

Do you see, as me, the Martín Fierro's «pata ancha» in the old obstinate-lamb character?

Yes, I see it as making a stand. Very 'macho' point of view of not retreating from any fight. Actually cherishing the risks and dangers of a fight. Welcoming it.

En el peligro, ¡qué Cristos!
El corazón se me enancha,
Pues toda la tierra es cancha,
Y de eso naides se asombre:
El que se tiene por hombre
Ande quiere hace pata ancha.​

 

[Sparhawk]

Charly,

There was a recent thread on the CHF about the character for sheep (羊) that is very interesting. There is a lot of native Chinese people there that have very good insights into the language. Here: The Sheep is good It is possible that you have to subscribe to the forum to read the thread. I use the same user name there, Sparhawk.

Un abrazo,

 

[my_key]

Mike:

You make me think about a name for the goat/ram actor, some alternatives:

• Rambo the Ram, always with a gun.
• Billy the Goat, instead of billy goat
• Billy the Lamb, when he was little

Maybe his name is William, aka Rambo, aka The Goat, aka The Ram, aka The Lamb...
the hero with thousand faces.

Yours,

Charly

Charley

Billy the Lamb? Do you mean Billy the Kid ( i.e young goat).
Do you think William Bonney will turn in his grave if he thought he was being called a lamb?

There is also a magazine in the UK with a character called Billy the Fish....... now where does he fit into this?



Mike

 

[Trojina]

Charley

Billy the Lamb? Do you mean Billy the Kid ( i.e young goat).
Do you think William Bonney will turn in his grave if he thought he was being called a lamb?

There is also a magazine in the UK with a character called Billy the Fish....... now where does he fit into this?

Mike

Theres no way i can accept the goat in 34.6 as a lamb or a fish for that matter, a budgerigar maybe. Billy the budgerigar buts his head against the bars of his cage and gets his head stuck - silly billy !

 

[charly]

There was a recent thread on the CHF about the character for sheep (羊) that is very interesting... I use the same user name there, Sparhawk...

Thanks, very much, Luis:

I go to see the forum assap. Could you tell me why do you use «Sparhawk»? Maybe a sort of Hawk? Forgive the curiosity.

Un abrazo,

Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

Thanks, very much, Luis:

I go to see the forum assap. Could you tell me why do you use «Sparhawk»? Maybe a sort of Hawk? Forgive the curiosity.

Hola Charly,

Ah, that's a long story... It is connected to my path to learning the English language. Actually, more than two years ago, I wrote something in my blog about it. Here: Sparhawk, o rompiendo barreras idiomáticas

Un abrazo,

 

[charly]

...Billy the Lamb? Do you mean Billy the Kid ( i.e young goat).
Do you think William Bonney will turn in his grave if he thought he was being called a lamb?
There is also a magazine in the UK with a character called Billy the Fish....... now where does he fit into this?

Mike:

All is clear.

1) Billy the Kid, a story about a kid that bears gun, who perhaps is turning in his grave.

2) Billy the Fish, a story of a kid born half human, half fish, human head in fish body, fishes are always turning in his water environment, this is a fish who turns in another environment, that has his passions and his goals, and use to enjoy good company, as you can see:

Billy The Fish Born half-man, half-fish, young Billy Thomson’s dream was to play in goal for Fu.... United. And that dream came true...

From: http://www.sendit.com/video/item/7000000097016

3) If you thik that in english «Billy Club» is the policeman stick, all that Billies shares something in common, not only the name.

I have read that Billy de Fish had died and was replaced in the strip by his own son who is exactly like him. Thus Billy the Fish dies and rebirds like whoever hero, like the strenght of the ram.

You can add to the list → Billy... aka «The Fish»

Animals always means something deep hiden in our own inner nature.

Don't you agree?

Yours,

Charly