Memorizing the I Ching Hexagram 4

[bruce_g]

So he gets in behind the steering wheel with all his friends piled into the back seat - and nothing happens, and the reality painfully catches up with him...

Or, takes his parent's car for a little spin when they're not home. I know no one here would have ever done that though. :bag:

 

[rosada]

Hexagram 4.5

4.5
Childlike folly brings good fortune.

 

[philippa]

Call me 4.4! I still don't quite see why 童蒙 (4.5) is a good thing at all. Is it because it's situated near 4.6 (a yang) and hence, Confucius' commentary on 4.5's willingness to be led.

On the other hand, the funny thing is, 童蒙 rhymes with 同盟 (forming an alliance). In terms of the hexagram itself, 4.5 (a yin) does correpond with 4.2 (a yang), and therefore, a good thing. (Two childlike people is better than one??? )

Hmm.

 

[rosada]

At the end of the movie, Zorba the Greek, they build this logging apparatus that is supposed to transform the fortunes of the people on the island. It is blessed by the priests and then the first log is released. It successfully careens down the mountain and splashes into the sea. Everyone cheers. The second log is released. With that the whole thing collapses. In a moment, everything, months of work, all their money, their dreams, gone. But Zorba survives. In fact, as he and his friend review the catastrophe he can hardly speak, he is laughing so hard as he thinks of the priests scrambling for cover.

I think this is what 4.5 is about. After the cosmic bonk in 4.4 the road to recovery is a childlike good nature that refuses to be miserable for long. Another example might be when you stumble and then say, "Hey, I meant to do that." A sort of cheerful taking responcibility for foolish errors, but not wallowing in self pity.

In the progression of the hexagrams I think we are being shown how 1) The Creative wants to do everything, but 2) The Receptive can only take in/ digest/ understand so much at a time and so 3) Difficulties arise and 4)Youthful Folly when we try to act as if we understand more than we do.

The good news with 4.5, I think, is that when we are acting as is age or understanding appropriate the result is fun and "good fortune". Seems IC is saying "Find a position in life that is appropriate for your understanding with a small challange (ie. the son taking charge of the household, NOT the whole neighborhood). if you try to act as if you understand more, not only will you be humiliated, it just wont be any fun."

 

[bruce_g]

I don’t see 4.5 as being quite so complicated, though I can see how adults would complicate things. Adults always complicate things . Kids only know this is here for the moment, and then it moves on. The context of youth is always changing, and when it changes frequently they call it ADD. Youth doesn’t hold onto things or ideas the way adults do. It grasps them and then lets them go. Furthermore, adults deny what they know and assert what they don’t know.

 

[hilary]

Young and not knowing is good fortune. Right! I suppose the alternative would be to be old and know it all already, which really doesn't sound so good.

Not Knowing, Dispersing. Maybe it's the clouds of knowledge that are dispersed, leaving the way clear for direct connection, the king in his temple. Pretty much like Bruce said.

 

[rosada]

Hexagram 4.6

4.6
In punishing folly
It does not further one
To commit transgressions.
The only thing that furthers
Is to prevent transgressions.

 

[bruce_g]

I thought it fair and reasonable that a child should answer to what line 5 means. Can you imagine what kids must sometimes think of adults, but lack the developed intellect to speak?

Perhaps the best commentary on line 5 is the Tao Te Ching. IE:

47
The more knowledge you seek,
the less you will understand.

48
One who seeks knowledge learns something new every day.
One who seeks the Tao unlearns something new every day. (relating hex. 59)

 

[bruce_g]

4.6
A beaten tree doesn’t grow straighter.
Taut guide wires does the job.

 

[ewald]

In my view 4.6 isn't really about transgression, doing something wrong, while trying to teach. It's about attacking someone who is considered ignorant, and thereby turning into an enemy of that person. An example of such an attack is degrading someone for not knowing something ("How stupid of you! This is how it's done."). Such degrading isn't really a transgression. If the person gets defensive, he will not want to hear what was said.

Attacking ignorance.
It is a disadvantage to turn into an enemy:
One better guards against enemies.
​

The last sentence in the Chinese is the same as the last sentence in 53.3.

 

[bruce_g]

The book of Proverbs, 22:6, says: Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

I believe this is relevant to 4.6. But it could be easy to forget that every violation of the child’s being becomes ingrained. It can never remove itself entirely. Training up a child isn’t only a matter of the words you teach him or her, much more so, it is the support you provide.

 

[rosada]

4.1
Moi:
I have a certain amount of knowledge about the I Ching. I know the drill, 3 heads is solid, 3 tails is broken. Put me in the game, Coach, I'm ready to play!

4.2
I Ching:
Okay Kid. Give it a shot. Ask your question.

4.3
Moi:
OMG, the I Ching spoke to me! This is fabulous! I am The High Priestess of The I Ching!

4.4
I Ching:
I don't know who you are or what you're talking about. I was speaking to the funny little kid in the back of the room.

4.5
Moi:
Oops, sorry about that. As a matter of fact, I am the funny little kid in the back of the room. Will you still speak to me?

4.6
I Ching:
Well sure, kid. Just don't let it happen again.

 

[hilary]

*grin!*

I like Ewald's take, about creating enemies. I think 4.6 is connected with 'making someone wrong'. Maybe helped along by 7, the sense that this won't do and something must be done about it.

Legge translates the last part of the line as 'advantage would come from warding off injury from him [the ignorant].'

And there is a good story of 4.6 from LiSe at http://ichingresources.co.uk/hexagrams/h4.html (if you scroll down a bit).

 

[hilary]

"The young ignoramus seeks me"

On Not Knowing in general - here is an excerpt from Unveiling the Heart of your Business by Mark Silver (available from heartofbusiness.com).

"Perplexity– or ignorance– is one of the best ways the Divine has of keeping us near our Source. If God gave us directions to our life, step-by-step, all in advance, most of us would rush off to a corner to follow each direction in order, finally sure of being in the right place, to do the right thing. And, we would be all alone in that corner, far from experiencing the Source of love."

 

[Sparhawk]

 

[Lavalamp]

One way I look at 4.6 - say you don't do as well as you would have hoped at something, your skills aren't developed enough or you simply lack the practical experience. So you messed up in some way, maybe missed an entrance, blew a test, hit some wrong notes... Don't beat yourself up, that doesn't help. What helps is if you go to the woodshed and study more, practice more, do some work at self improvement. Making yourself feel crappy doesn't change anything - it just makes things worse!

 

[hilary]

I think Lavalamp's post is a very good start for 4.6. I've interpreted it for people who were dedicating all their energies and focus to attacking the enemy of not-having-enough-energy-and-focus. If you have yourself divided up into good-me vv bad-me, the first step is just to find ways to stop these two from fighting one another to exhaustion - to 'resist enmity'. Maybe replace it with active collaboration for a purpose (zhi gua 7, the noble one accepting people to gather crowds).

Ignorance as an opener of doors... yes, absolutely. And the key idea that not knowing is not some shameful state to be remedied as rapidly as possible, and so on - all good stuff. Only I've found that when I'm at 4.6, that way of seeing isn't really available to me. Resist enmity first - stop beating self up - and then there might be doors to open.

 

[anemos]

I wake up with this line in mind this morning and this thread appeared when i came here to search for it, lol

Was spoiling a painting yesterday trying to come to terms with the rods and knots of a specific medium. Have not any formal training so I try by myself to tame it, so to speak. After preparing a new paper and while waiting to dry so i could continue , that line in mind mind make me go and visit again my last-nights-disaster

When I get that line it feels like a comforting and considerable "its ok ". Punishing my self with all those negative feelings leads nowhere . Gathering myself again, letting the general do what a general has to do , focusing on the goal and accepting the shortcomings as challenges to overcome and not as reasons to quit is my feeling of 4.6.

while i was practicing at sumi-e the most difficult thing you had to face were the mistakes. Most of the times, there is no way to correct a mistake. The instructor's advice was , spend a min to understand what went wrong and then just throw the paper and take a clean one. I found this instruction helpful in other aspects of my life and to me seems a very 4.6 way of thinking. Its not avoid responsibility for actions , its take what you need and keep walking . What else is knowledge if not experience ?

 

[Lavalamp]

Ummm - Meng. I look at 4 as being about learning. In music the term "woodshed" doesn't mean where you go to take a beating, it means where you go to practice your instrument.
In the WIlhelm:

Nine at the top means:
In punishing folly It does not further one To commit transgressions.
The only thing that furthers Is to prevent transgressions.

The point is how to improve things. So if you brand or stigmatize someone for their problems, judge them, does it help them or just aggravate and trigger their problems? And the same goes for yourself, sometimes because that's how we have been treated when we mess up - sometimes on the most innocent of things even - we have been trained to beat ourselves up too. Doesn't help to beat ourselves up.

And if people have problems, there is a big difference between telling people they are screwed up and need to change, and helping them to do so. In fact sometimes it's better to not say anything about their problems at all, because you can't force an epiphany down someone's throat.
By extension, a lot of times people just want to punish others because of their personal guilt anyway, and just want to pretend they are somehow better than others, keep up appearances.

- LL

 

[anemos]

A state of unknowing can also be interpreted as in dao de jing, or in modern terms, as a state of potential being.

that brings in mind the image of the underground water of hex 7. Its there , flows, yet invisible.