New supervisor at work is a problem

[Trojina]

There's changes in the works anyway - not that I'm privately privy to them - but I have a feeling it's gonna get interesting.

Before Hilary gets pelted with water balloons, just let me say, I think her hands off policy has made for some interesting experiences, which wouldn't have happened if there were stricter policies. Yi is about change, not about Yi.

And in all fairness, Hilary is a businesswoman. Newcomers and their wishes are important. I think we should respect that.

I'm down for another round, just to see where this is going.

I agree with some of your points - like the hands off policy has let in some fresh air. But right now for me it genuinely does feel painful to watch newcomers start to think the yi is gonna tell them they will be rich on Aug 5th or whenever. Sure they can look further if they want, they don't have to believe it - but it isn't even the I Ching and Jim doesn't even have any respect for our concerns.

Sorry I can't respect power trippers who make up predictions and I don't find it interesting to watch them cause mayhem - but they will.


well like you say why should I give a **** just thought this was a genuine place people came to learn about the Yi thats all and i was wrong

 

[Trojina]

Still why do all the agonising over what to call each area of the forum when it doesn't even describe whats in the forum - so now this isn't a place to share i Ching readings but a place to share any oracle reading or simply to give predictions as is your whim.

 

[luz]

I can understand that, from the business point of view, it's important to attract people. And some people will be more attracted to this site by coke machine readings and date by date predictions. It's human nature, we want to know and we want to know NOW and we want the DETAILS.

Personally, I am pretty allergic to fortune telling. If I had found the sort of posts that I see today when I first ran into this site, where people speak with such certainty and even give you lucky days and foretell great financial breaks in you future... I would have run in the opposite direction. I might as well start reading my spam mail.

And I would have missed out on a lot of things I have learned throughout these couple years. Luckily, the posts I read back then really impressed me with their wisdom, their clarity, and their honesty. I felt I was listening to real, caring, fallible human beings as if they were gathered around, looking at the 'signs', as casted by those three coins, trying to make sense of them, sharing perspectives. And not charlatans that pretended to see in their crystal ball or with their own 'private methods' what no other human eye could see.

Even from the business perspective, I think that is what sets the I Ching aside from other divination systems. There is a lot of fortune telling to be had out there. There will always be the people that need to know now, with 100% certainty, what the future will bring or how X feels about them. But, as far as I know, only the I Ching can help them look beyond the question, and in so doing, help them grow a little bit. I embrace its vagueness, its difficulty. I know that, as much as anybody can help me with a reading, the answer can only be found by me and, even though that can be a frustrating, it simply rings true where other 'systems' sound like poppycock.

 

[Trojina]

Well said Lightangel :bows: I agreed with all of what you wrote.

 

[Trojina]

And in all fairness, Hilary is a businesswoman. Newcomers and their wishes are important. I think we should respect that.

I'm down for another round, just to see where this is going.

No theres faulty logic here somewhere Bruce. Either this is a forum to discuss I Ching readings or an area where any oracular system can be used to answer querants and any predictions regardless of source can be given.

Personally I can't for the life of me see how tolerating the kind of stuff around lately leads to improved business in the long run. It would seem a certainty to me that eventually those who were more interested in the Yi would fall away and go elsewhere. Even now more and more people stay away from the friends area and go to the discussion area and you may note those who want readings even go there, I get the impression to escape the predictions they'll be bombarded with if they stay here. Selling out is selling out - but selling out without even a profit isn't selling out I don't know what it is - i don't understand.

This'll sound pompous and self important i guess but i would not share interpretations in this area now, even I don't want to drop below certain standards and I don't want to share in a place where giving out phoney predictions about financial windfalls to people with autistic children is seen as okay.

Usually the policy here is wait around long enough and things change. What was a problem yesterday is not today kind of thing - but this kind of stuff hasn't gone away
it just gets worse.

Maybe it doesn't matter as theres changes coming in and the whole thing changes like the paid membership area and so on - so maybe forum areas like this won't even be here - unless you pay.

Shame still it was good while it lasted.

 

[maremaria]

I have a silly question to post.

Lets say that I need help for a hexagram. Where I should go ?

In “ Divination discussion, advice and tips” ? no because is only
“For discussion of all kinds of divination (not just the I Ching). Not for sharing or requesting readings - those go in the 'Friends' Area'.”

Friends area: Yes this is the rigth place
For sharing I Ching readings and asking for help with interpretation

But if I go to friends area I’ll know that I can’t “talk” with some of you because you are not happy with the current situation. I don't say its wrong or right but this is a very confusing situation. I can understand your worries and fears about the "quality" of the intepretetions given etc . I wish this forum was a "safe place" and by that I mean free of misleading help but this safe place does not exist anywhere. In family, in work area, in friends. nowhere !
In my opinion, IC helps as to create our "safe place" where it is inside us.If we ever manage to do that then we don't have to worry about the ones who migth misleading us.
this is my greatest fear. To be misleaded in this forum and in my life. I have met and i'll meet misleading people, ideas etc but this is life. The only tool i have to protect myself is to be wise. I that is something we learning day by day.
I try to create my "safe place" not to hide but to be what I want to be (no matter what that is )

So, where should I post my thread to get some help ?

 

[jimnammack]

I'm really having trouble understanding what you are talking about. You think others deserve to know what? Whether they are using Karcher, Wilhelm, Hua-Ching Ni, Deng Ming-Dao, or whomever when they post their divinations on this website? I would agree that this would be useful information. That is why, in the last two or three days when I have used my own I Ching system to help someone, I have made it clear that that was what I was doing.

Elsewhere on this website I have gone to great lengths to explain how I went about creating the I Ching system that I use.

Concerning the thread of yours just posted by maremaria, to an extent I agree with what you said. When someone comes to this website with a divination they need help with, they are typically met with a wide diversity of interpretations. There are reasons for this. First, almost all people posting these divinations are using the Wilhelm translation. To my mind, the Wilhelm translation is the most obtuse divination system I have ever seen, and I have seen many. When I first got involved with the I Ching some years ago, I too used the Wilhelm translation exclusively, and I was often confused by some of the answers I I received through it. Since then, I have acquired a lot of experience doing divinations in lots of different ways for lots of different people. And so, I have a lot less trouble interpreting Wilhelm now than I did then. Having said that, the Wilhelm I Ching is still the murkiest oracle I have ever seen.

And so, when people who participate on this website try to help others intepret the meanings of their Wilhelm readings, they often tend to pick and choose from the Wilhelm text they use. The reason for this is that much of the Wilhelm text is indecipherable, so they do the best they can by sticking to what seems to make the most sense. I used to do that too. Sometimes, however, this can lead to horrendous misinterpretations of what the I Ching message actually is.

Another thing I have noticed on this website is that sometimes people (not all, but some) do not really take a lot of time or effort developing their divination interpretations. This can lead to some grotesque misintepretations too. For example, I recently was trying to help someone on this website interpret a Wilhelm divination in which Modesty was included as one of the hexagrams. Another person had already posted some remarks, and had interpreted Modesty to mean that the querent should take a low profile in the matter asked about. This person was apparently intepreting Modesty to mean something like, shy, retiring, unobtrusive, not calling attention to oneself, and the like. This is the way we usually use that word in ordinary speech. The Wilhelm text, however, does not offer that intepretation at all. The Wilhelm text says, "It is the way of heaven to make empty what is full and to give increase to what is modest." "Thus the superior man reduces that which is too much, and augments that which which is too little. He weighs them and makes them equal." In the Wilhelm I Ching, Modesty is defined as bringing things into proper balance with each other, with an emphasis, perhaps, on supplementing that which is too little. It has nothing to do with being shy or retiring or taking a low profile.

I do not see that any of the things I just spoke of would be improved by doing one-on-one interpretations.

Jim

 

[bruce_g]

In my opinion, IC helps as to create our "safe place" where it is inside us.If we ever manage to do that then we don't have to worry about the ones who migth misleading us.
this is my greatest fear. To be misleaded in this forum and in my life. I have met and i'll meet misleading people, ideas etc but this is life. The only tool i have to protect myself is to be wise. I that is something we learning day by day.
I try to create my "safe place" not to hide but to be what I want to be (no matter what that is )

So, where should I post my thread to get some help ?

Maria, there's a lot of wisdom in those words, and I don't use the word wisdom lightly.

Here's a good place to start learning, in the quiet of your safe place. You might start at "How to begin".
http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html

 

[bruce_g]

I'm really having trouble understanding what you are talking about. You think others deserve to know what? Whether they are using Karcher, Wilhelm, Hua-Ching Ni, Deng Ming-Dao, or whomever when they post their divinations on this website? I would agree that this would be useful information. That is why, in the last two or three days when I have used my own I Ching system to help someone, I have made it clear that that was what I was doing.

Elsewhere on this website I have gone to great lengths to explain how I went about creating the I Ching system that I use.

Concerning the thread of yours just posted by maremaria, to an extent I agree with what you said. When someone comes to this website with a divination they need help with, they are typically met with a wide diversity of interpretations. There are reasons for this. First, almost all people posting these divinations are using the Wilhelm translation. To my mind, the Wilhelm translation is the most obtuse divination system I have ever seen, and I have seen many. When I first got involved with the I Ching some years ago, I too used the Wilhelm translation exclusively, and I was often confused by some of the answers I I received through it. Since then, I have acquired a lot of experience doing divinations in lots of different ways for lots of different people. And so, I have a lot less trouble interpreting Wilhelm now than I did then. Having said that, the Wilhelm I Ching is still the murkiest oracle I have ever seen.

And so, when people who participate on this website try to help others intepret the meanings of their Wilhelm readings, they often tend to pick and choose from the Wilhelm text they use. The reason for this is that much of the Wilhelm text is indecipherable, so they do the best they can by sticking to what seems to make the most sense. I used to do that too. Sometimes, however, this can lead to horrendous misinterpretations of what the I Ching message actually is.

Another thing I have noticed on this website is that sometimes people (not all, but some) do not really take a lot of time or effort developing their divination interpretations. This can lead to some grotesque misintepretations too. For example, I recently was trying to help someone on this website interpret a Wilhelm divination in which Modesty was included as one of the hexagrams. Another person had already posted some remarks, and had interpreted Modesty to mean that the querent should take a low profile in the matter asked about. This person was apparently intepreting Modesty to mean something like, shy, retiring, unobtrusive, not calling attention to oneself, and the like. This is the way we usually use that word in ordinary speech. The Wilhelm text, however, does not offer that intepretation at all. The Wilhelm text says, "It is the way of heaven to make empty what is full and to give increase to what is modest." "Thus the superior man reduces that which is too much, and augments that which which is too little. He weighs them and makes them equal." In the Wilhelm I Ching, Modesty is defined as bringing things into proper balance with each other, with an emphasis, perhaps, on supplementing that which is too little. It has nothing to do with being shy or retiring or taking a low profile.

I do not see that any of the things I just spoke of would be improved by doing one-on-one interpretations.

Jim

Jim, it's a nice idea to address the person you're speaking to.

You're entitled to your opinion. What can I tell you? That's what this hoopla is about, isn't it? Everyone's entitled. Oh, how wonderful to be so entitled!

 

[heylise]

It is not a matter of your oracle being better than Wilhelm or not. It is a question of your oracle not being I Ching. Maybe it is better, who knows. Then go to the discussion area and discuss it. But do not go to the friends area and give readings with an oracle which is not I Ching.

When people come here, they trust that this forum will give them I Ching readings. After all it is why they come here. If they want another oracle, they go to a website where they can get answers with the help of that other oracle.

I think a forum, or a shop, or an institution or whatever, which says clearly what it is about, has a responsibility to be and do what it says.

LiSe

 

[Trojina]

It is not a matter of your oracle being better than Wilhelm or not. It is a question of your oracle not being I Ching. Maybe it is better, who knows. Then go to the discussion area and discuss it. But do not go to the friends area and give readings with an oracle which is not I Ching.

When people come here, they trust that this forum will give them I Ching readings. After all it is why they come here. If they want another oracle, they go to a website where they can get answers with the help of that other oracle.

I think a forum, or a shop, or an institution or whatever, which says clearly what it is about, has a responsibility to be and do what it says.

LiSe

I think thats the nub of it yes :bows:

 

[heylise]

Maremaria, it depends how you post. You can ask questions in the friends area and if your question is about how to deal with something, you will get all kinds of answers. It will not be that hard to discern which ones talk to (or about) 'you', and which ones are 'predictions'.

On the other hand, when you clearly ask for a prediction, like many querents do, then the kind of people who talk to 'you' will usually not bother to answer, because you don't ask for their kind of reading, and they can see the difference. Certainly after two or more posts.

For those who come for the first time, it is a lot harder to find their way among those very different readings. And also for those who ask for a prediction but would be a lot better off by finding out what they can do themselves, instead of letting fate just steamroll over them. But who knows, maybe we find a solution for that.

LiSe

 

[Tohpol]

I think a forum, or a shop, or an institution or whatever, which says clearly what it is about, has a responsibility to be and do what it says.
LiSe

Very nicely put. I think it's then that this becomes more than just someone's opinion but an important principle to adhere to.

Topal

 

[maremaria]

Maria, there's a lot of wisdom in those words, and I don't use the word wisdom lightly.

Here's a good place to start learning, in the quiet of your safe place. You might start at "How to begin".
http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html

Thanks Bruce !
Of course I'm in the beging of creating this "safe place". So, for the time being is only words, and a direction. What I can imagine is that this will be a very long trip. Maybe I never reach at this point, but the trip itself can be interesting.
maria

 

[maremaria]

Maremaria, it depends how you post. You can ask questions in the friends area and if your question is about how to deal with something, you will get all kinds of answers. It will not be that hard to discern which ones talk to (or about) 'you', and which ones are 'predictions'.

On the other hand, when you clearly ask for a prediction, like many querents do, then the kind of people who talk to 'you' will usually not bother to answer, because you don't ask for their kind of reading, and they can see the difference. Certainly after two or more posts.

For those who come for the first time, it is a lot harder to find their way among those very different readings. And also for those who ask for a prediction but would be a lot better off by finding out what they can do themselves, instead of letting fate just steamroll over them. But who knows, maybe we find a solution for that.

LiSe

You are rigth Lise. Somewhere in my mind are all those you said. I'm working on that.
thanks for your advise

 

[bruce_g]

Just smilin' here...

 

[bruce_g]

Maremaria, it depends how you post. You can ask questions in the friends area and if your question is about how to deal with something, you will get all kinds of answers. It will not be that hard to discern which ones talk to (or about) 'you', and which ones are 'predictions'.

On the other hand, when you clearly ask for a prediction, like many querents do, then the kind of people who talk to 'you' will usually not bother to answer, because you don't ask for their kind of reading, and they can see the difference. Certainly after two or more posts.

For those who come for the first time, it is a lot harder to find their way among those very different readings. And also for those who ask for a prediction but would be a lot better off by finding out what they can do themselves, instead of letting fate just steamroll over them. But who knows, maybe we find a solution for that.

LiSe

Discernment is such a great word.

The cognitive condition of someone who understands
Delicate discrimination (especially of aesthetic values)
The mental ability to understand and discriminate between relations
The trait of judging wisely and objectively

Greater discernment by everyone would solve this entire debate. But how does someone discern someone else's lack of discernment? hmm

 

[bruce_g]

So I asked, how does someone discern someone else's lack of discernment? Answer: 2

 

[Tohpol]

But if I go to friends area I’ll know that I can’t “talk” with some of you because you are not happy with the current situation. I don't say its wrong or right but this is a very confusing situation. I can understand your worries and fears about the "quality" of the intepretetions given etc . I wish this forum was a "safe place" and by that I mean free of misleading help but this safe place does not exist anywhere. In family, in work area, in friends. nowhere !
In my opinion, IC helps as to create our "safe place" where it is inside us.If we ever manage to do that then we don't have to worry about the ones who migth misleading us.
this is my greatest fear. To be misleaded in this forum and in my life. I have met and i'll meet misleading people, ideas etc but this is life. The only tool i have to protect myself is to be wise. I that is something we learning day by day.
I try to create my "safe place" not to hide but to be what I want to be (no matter what that is )

So, where should I post my thread to get some help ?

I read your post again Maria and I'd like to respond after thinking about it more this morning.

I don't think you should be confused about asking for help here. We all have to do the best we can to follow what feels right and by thinking about it carefully. Put it through the intellect first then test it with the emotions - but trying not to separate the two, which we do most of the time! And also not to rely totally on the IC - it's a guide but we have to respond to life as it happens too.

I think to create a "safe place" there HAS to be some simple boundaries. This can create conditions whereby quality can be given a helping hand - and by "quality" I mean studying the I Ching and applying the lessons in our lives. If we question the deep reason WHY we are asking the IC - no BS - really question why we are seeking a particular answer and if we are brutally honest with ourselves then this goes a long way in cultivating discernment or the BS-o-meter in other aspects of our life journey.

The problem is we don't do this enough because our understandable fears and desires are getting the better of us. But that's all part of it too I guess.

This is just an I Ching forum it's not the Holy Grail. This "safe place" could indeed our own "holy grail" or other names from ancient wisdom that describe it as a: "strategic enclosure", "building our substance" "assemblage point" "magnetic centre" etc. As a network we are in a wonderful position to be able to share and give all kinds of valuable experiences and interpretations. This is something that cannot be gained on one's own. We're not objective enough. Imo, the only tool to protect yourself is Knowledge which allows wisdom to be accumulated. Knowledge if applied, will protect you. Whereas ignorance will blind you and leave you open to all kinds of attacks. And of course,l some are not interested in learning but "stamping their mark." or reinforcing their perceived significance. We all do it to a degree but when it gets to be the sole driving force which tips over from a creative tension to chaos...

So, I think this "safe place" has to be transposed to the forum itself. It's already present but there could be scope for more "accumulation" as it were. The integrity of our own individual safe places could be mirrored in the forum as a kind of fractal process and this process has effects. But the accumulation of energy cannot be started if the core is being drained away by elements which are not resonating to the same integrity. By integrity I mean the same essential principles, even if those nodes in the network have diverse reasons and experiences for being there, the goal is the same i.e. I Ching interpretations and discussion.

Bruce's reading of receptivity could imply building the correct housing to receive all those asking to know and learn, but it doesn't mean opening your heart to all without discrimination otherwise the well becomes murky pretty darn quick. Discernment can only operate when some level of discrimination is existing also. The dynamic of the blind leading the blind can be avoided if there is some consensus as to the way forward.

Well, some thoughts as they came to mind. No doubt "it'll all come out in the wash" as my Granny use to say.

Topal

 

[jimnammack]

Heylise: With my I Ching the basics are the same and so is the structure. Mine is different in that the meanings of the hexagrams and moving lines are more relevant and easier to understand.

Topal: I prefer clarity over murkiness every time, as do most users of oracles.

Laurie: Upon reflection, perhaps a better way to interpret the changes that are to come about between you and your new supervisor is that they will occur gradually over time, not necessarily because some special meeting or conference provides the impetus. In other words, in time you both become more accepting of each other, more appreciative of each other, and more supportive of each other. In fact, my interpretation is that your long-range outlook with this guy seems extremely positive.

Jim

 

[mudpie]

what really bakes my noodle is how open to diverse interpretation some of the readings are, even stretching things beyond recognition.

for instance, in this thread, someone gets 23 about attitude towards an abusive boss, and is told, by I Chingers and other divinatory readers, that 23 is about staying -and working together and finding harmony??? It doesnt make sense.
and 55 does not by any chance mean 'abundant prospects', oh gosh no, it has to mean DO NOT look for another job!
I just dont get it. it is like the child's game of "opposite day"

pass me a big mac, molaurie, and make room for my feet up on the dashboard. i'm with you

 

[bruce_g]

View attachment 353

 

[heylise]

WOW! Scrolled down this page, and a balloon appeared, and then Wormyi came emerging from the earth.
Beautiful!

LiSe

 

[heylise]

Jim, I started a thread about your oracle. I called it I Jim Oracle by lack of another name.

I Jim Oracle

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

Hi Listener,

Baked noodles and big macs. Any room left for frosted apples?

It bakes my noodle too, sometimes. The question at hand is, what to do about it? That evokes the question, what can be done about it? Given the limitations, I see only a few choices: complain and harass those with strong convictions about different ideas, pack up the bags and move out, or trust that order eventually evolves from chaos if people persevere with each other.

If I'm dissatisfied with the quality and depth of interpretations, I'm always free to offer my own. I'm also free not to offer. It may help someone, it may not. The one I disagree with may help someone more than mine, and I might just learn something in the process.

RE: Jim's version and method, how do I know it isn't as good or better than the traditional method? He's now making it clear what he's working with and why. That's all I asked for.

When I first joined here, some 6-7,000 posts or so ago, Chris Lofting and I battled quite a bit. His method was completely unconventional, and that seemed to threaten myself and some others. Now, it's no problem. Chris adds a unique flavor to the mix, though his ways are still his ways. The only thing he's compromised is the manner in which he participates - he's found a way to fit in. Some still scoff at his methods; so what? He still scoffs at some other methods, too. It's not the end of the world.

 

[Tohpol]

what really bakes my noodle...

I love it. I'll have to remember that one.

Topal

 

[Trojina]

He can't be compared with Chris Lofting. Chris Lofting never made predictions about windfalls - or told people x was head over heels in love with them on some flimsy basis of hex 48.

On a thread just gone on hex 20 Jim says that the lady can now expect to wrap her man around her little finger cos she got 20 unchanging - what ? You think I'm gonna learn something from that ! I'd have to unlearn everything i ever understood then bang myself on the head to make sure there was no sense left.



Its just crap plain and simple. Chris didn't mislead people - and when he gave input on readings they were at least i Ching related.

This guys predictions don't even have anything to do with the I Ching.

 

[Trojina]

Theres sod all to do about it since the only person who could do anything about it chooses not to.

I asked Yi what will happen about it got 43, lines 3,5 and 6 to 38 , shrug.

Anyway we don't have to do anything about it do we, just watch it rot.

Its certainly gone way past the stage I'd bother jumping in with an alternative view for the readings, but if you want to go ahead

 

[Sparhawk]

Thats just crap plain and simple. Chris didn't mislead people - and when he gave input on readings they were at least i Ching related.

LOL! Finally, some vindication for Chris... You should have met him in "other" forums some 10 years ago... That was his "ax murderer" phase... Chris has evolved wisely over the years without losing his theoretical edge. IMO, there is much to respect in his work, unconventional as it may be.

As for Jim here, well, I don't know much about his methods but I find no fault in having his own. As you do, Trojan, I find fault--very personal opinion-- in asserting and presaging outcomes to these kinds of questions. He's not the only one though. I find such advise and actions akin to visiting a fortune teller parlor, which, for my, is lowering the bar.

On the other hand, having said that, lots of people take this forum as their personal "fortune telling parlor". People should realize that the way to learn the Yi is by divining and interpreting their own questions; by making mistakes in interpretation as well as realizing when they've been correct.

Luis

 

[Trojina]

LOL! Finally, some vindication for Chris... You should have met him in "other" forums some 10 years ago... That was his "ax murderer" phase... Chris has evolved wisely over the years without losing his theoretical edge. IMO, there is much to respect in his work, unconventional as it may be.

Yeah i know how um 'difficult' Chris could be but he did no harm. My own personal opinion is these predictions are potentially harmful - I can't apologise for having a moral stance on it anymore. I believe them to be misleading and harmful to the well being of others so have decided not to share in readings myself here while this continues. Call me pompous - I'm being true to myself thats all.

As for Jim here, well, I don't know much about his methods but I find no fault in having his own. As you do, Trojan, I find fault--very personal opinion-- in asserting and presaging outcomes to these kinds of questions. He's not the only one though. I find such advise and actions akin to visiting a fortune teller parlor, which, for my, is lowering the bar.

Is it such a personal opinion though Luis - he isn't even using the I Ching. If this is a place for the use of any oracle in readings then the headings here need changing as they are false.

On the other hand, having said that, lots of people take this forum as their personal "fortune telling parlor". People should realize that the way to learn the Yi is by divining and interpreting their own questions; by making mistakes in interpretation as well as realizing when they've been correct.

Luis

[/QUOTE]

Yeah well can't argue with that -