Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
I took that to mean a "yes"
I think that where matters of spirituality and self-development are concerned we can't say with finality that 'yes' we are on the right path. Self-development is a process of perpetual on-goingness. We can't give ourselves airs that we have arrived since there are ever higher relations to ourselves that we can attain to.
I think that the reply is stating that at the time of the question you were on good ground, but it is important not to presume upon that lest we start to coast and find ourselves on the bad side of hexagram 29.
Don't know where you stand in your understanding of this but I thought I would mention it. You might also want to ask, at this juncture, what you might be doing to further your continuance on the path of return. If you are at all given to prayer you might pray: If I am on the path of Return I pray to be sustained on it. if I have strayed I pray to return to it.
This is why the oracle is so valuable. One has a little "Checkpoint Charlie" to monitor where one is at.
Hex 57.2 says that you still have to sort out the problem of others who seem to be acting against you, so before you proceed any further root out all opposition because the last thing you need right now is secret or known enemies.
Hex 53 Patience, take it slow and steady, gradually creep up on your goal.
Ain't that the truth!
Thanks WF.
Topal
Oh, I don't think that's the truth. I think that's usually called paranoia. The enemies within, now that's a different story. But any shaman worth his or her mojo pouch knows, these enemies bring important messages.
I dunno quite why but I always take 57,2 a bit tongue in cheek. Too much earnestness, frantic checking out of omens and signs, neurosis in its funny aspect, somehow Woody Allenish - checking and re checking - good fortune though, no harm in doing all that.
Certainly i can't see any danger in the line. I've always gotten it it that kind of "OMG am I doing the right thing' state and it always feels like the Yi is laughing at me - and that kind of how I take this answer. The path you're on is the path you're on and wherever you are you're on the path of return - I think paranoia about ones own demons as well as outer demons may be being gently mocked in this line.
The only other reason I can think of as to why i take this line as humourous is that I have a Yi book with a ridiculous picture of someone with spiky hair with devils pointing at him from under a bed i think.
I don't think "wherever you are you're on the path of return" has validity for me. That feels like a platitude and is far too nebulous. A path of return (i.e away from ignorance and repeating patterns of behaviour) needs to be consciously trodden otherwise you're just like the ball in a pin-ball machine. It takes effort and will as well as humour and fun don't you think? Letting it all flow according to the Tao doesn't just happen to my mind, it has to be created intentionally as balance of active and passive. Like going straight to simplicity without first navigating the complexity can't be done.
Topal
It depends upon the part that is doing the 'conscious treading' - to my mind using effort and will is good up to point for certain things but the trouble is they are very much ego driven and people get so hooked on how far along on the spiritual path they are and where they are on the path and so on to my mind it just becomes another ego trip.
Will and effort may come into defeating destructive habits and behaviours but I don't think they always have a lot to do with expanding spiritual awareness or receiving grace - (pardon the language there I get stuck for terms to use) I think more often it may take conscious choice to reach that but thats not the same as effort.
And haven't you ever noticed sometimes in every day life the less effort you make to push things into how you want them the easier they happen anyway.
As for psychological 'faults' and so on, such as anger etc I've seen far too many spiritual 'aspirants' squidging their feelings down, always talking in a level tone etc but actually just being quietly nasty - they make an effort to repress their feelings because they deem them 'wrong' but it is their ego that judges them wrong and their ego that gives them a pat on the head if they think they are doing well.
Theres something about the use of the term effort in this context that makes me think of someone constantly anxiously keeping an eye on their performance, but in my own experience, my deepest and best meditations come not when i am concentrating hard with furrowed brow but when i let go of all that performance anxiety.
As for returning, well to me it seems even in the depth of ignorance once cannot be separated from ones path, theres no where else to go is there ?
It may sound like a platitude but then I don't necessarily think effort prevents one being like a pinball in a machine - just a pin ball thats being obedient to its superego.
But you know thats just my point of view right now, I appreciate you feel it differently - and then again i can't really say how much effort it takes to reach enlightenment cos I'm not enlightened I'll tell you how hard it was when i get there except I expect you will get there first because you worked harder
Anyway however you see the answer you got, yes I think its positive.
Enjoying the dialogue between you two, and find myself nodding along as I read both.
Topal, there's just one thing in your recent post which doesn't feel quite right to me. That is the emphasis on the virtue (I know you didn't use that word) of following the Creative path. The reason it discords in me is that, I view the Creative as encompassing what we humans would consider some very negative attributes. Not that's it's at all really negative in the big scheme of things, but the way it effects us on a subjective level can include such things as: ruthlessness, war, dominance, lack of feeling, even violent death. These attributes go hand-in-hand with what we might call divine inspiration and heaven's blessings.
Trojan's pov seems to reflect the opposite side of this, characteristic of the Receptive: walk the path you're walking, accept your destiny, don't strive or struggle to make things happen, and so forth.
To me, those magicians and priests, whether frightening or funny, mystical or practical, are helpers who guide us to equalizing our extremes, in either direction: light and dark. In this sense, you each are saying what the other probably needs to hear.
Frankl I think we live in a world that is VERY twisted and distorted. Not the Tao, Life, the Universe but our relationship to it. So, of course, we must be here on this earth at this level of matter because we fit! Sure, we can't be perfect otherwise we wouldn't be getting our feet dirty.
The twist in most religions - including Asian philosophies and dare I say the Tao, is that it is fine and dandy to go with the flow - we should and can, but on no account does that imply that we attempt it as an escape from reality and without paying attention to the nuances. The IC is a wonderful tool in that respect. It says pay attention to objective reality which always requires effort, discipline to achieve results and before we get to that "flow."
It is also true that sometimes "the path of least resistance" is a path that the Shadow side of God employs frequently. Humans will seek the easy way out for most things because we are essentially very weak and malleable beings, open to all kinds of carrots and controls. "Friction" and shocks are the only way that progress can eventuate, imo. For Creativity to be birthed I don't think it comes through finding a safe place within nor does it come from banging your head against a brick wall until there's a bloody mess. I think It requires knowledge to choose when and how we can proceed. That's the tricky part!
Fundamentally, we can go towards Creativity or entropy; Being or Non-Being; up the spiral or down the spiral; towards illusion or away from illusion. The "higher" you go and the more progress one makes, the more subtle it gets and the harder it gets before one arrives at the state of simplicity so often talked about. Call it the karmic wheel or an endless repetitive film or the all consuming Eagle. But if we only see what we want to see based on what we want to know then our beliefs will conform to that and we will be in blissful ignorance. And yes, maybe you are right, even if we are in ignorance that is a path in itself, but let's not pretend it is a Creative one.
Don't get hung up on effort here, even if I harp on about it But I do believe it is an important part of the picture. Name me anything of quality and truly Creative that doesn't have effort and will.
Anyway thanks for allowing me waffle and making the EFFORT to read through all this!
This is where I part company with you - this sense that we are here because we are 'dirty' because we are 'fit' at this level of matter. So are all children born to this world stained with sin then ? This view just seems to contribute to an unhealthy level of unwarranted guilt.
Eh you mean the devil - the shadow side of God employs our path of least resistance ? Ooh I dunno about that - I'm not that sure there is this active dark shadow side - there could be I suppose - but its not something I consider much.
How can there be Non Being ? Where can that live ? (you don't have to answer that)
Actually as an afterthought it occurs to me the reason I might appear anti-effort re personal development etc is probably because for me in the past it has backfired in that I made myself ill in thinking too much about it all - and then I was no use to anyone least of all myself - so like with hex 60 now I respect my own limits re effort . I maybe projecting that onto you
How can there be Non Being ?
Non-being could be said to be entropy or emptiness; living in fantasy or not being in the present.
It's not a matter of "could be" - there has to be as light wouldn't exist. I think that's where we part company. To understand how the Dark side works is vital as it is just as much a part of the Universe as the Light. (not to embrace it of course - but to learn from it in order to SEE how to avoid it) If you don't have any knowledge of the highly deceptive ways of the Dark then you can easily be claimed by it. Look around the world. Or as I think the Cathars used to call it: "The World inside the Devil." But that is not a easy thing to do. I went into it and couldn't take the heat. Lots of Hubris there. But then tell that to those families in Iraq who live with hell everyday. I'd say they consider it quite a bit.
Oh but I will Non-being could be said to be entropy or emptiness; living in fantasy or not being in the present. Or our ability to assimilate knowledge and apply it which can increase Being. (To BE or not to BE) Many different ways to define it. Creative and whole or entropic and fragmented and thus towards the vacuum. But this "being" has a limit dependent on understanding i.e our capacity to learn and apply it.
One would say: if "non being" is this, ancients sages wouldn't teach to achieve "non being" as a goal to our development. But what do I know?
One would say: if "non being" is this, ancients sages wouldn't teach to achieve "non being" as a goal to our development. But what do I know?
To me darkness is simply absence of light as darkness is in the physical world. If I equate evil with darkness its the same, the absence of light - I'm not sure negativity has its own power source any more than darkness does. This was a difficulty i was touching on in another conversation here where it seemed to me someone was saying darkness/negativity was an equal and opposite energy to light - and even associating it seemingly with yin/yang. I say I'm not sure because its possible evil has its own energy source, I don't really know - but I had thought it was an utter abscence of love rather than a force in its own right. I have an open mind on that though. Not sure why you bring up Iraq families - experiencing great suffering does not logically have to lead to a belief in a dark side with its own energy force - could be complete absence of light.
Even when I'm living in fantasy I'm still being and there is no non being I can conceive of. I might be being pretending or playing at not being but I am still being. And BEING itself - unity consciousness cannot be increased or decreased by anything - it is beyond relativity or striving. Well i will find out about not being when I am dead eh
Good point - I understand my spiritual goal as extinguishing the fiction of myself in the one SELF so to speak - to use a cliche like the raindrop and the sea - the raindrop doesn't strive to be the sea it gives up the fiction of being an independant raindrop
OMG don't laugh at me - philosophical discussion is not my strong point - not once i get onto raindrops and oceans - but if we take the raindrop as the analogy it can wander about and plot and plan but eventually its going to return to the ocean whether it likes it or not, lol
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).