Please....help with 38.3

[ewald]

I'm not seeing this as getting what one needs in the end. Things come to an end, but it isn't said in what way. Wilhelm interprets it as a "good" end, but, like I said, that's not there in the Chinese. The man with the double punishment might be dying, for instance.

I'm interpreting the "seeing" as a kind of witnessing or noticing. One isn't undergoing the terrible situation oneself, but it's on one's path. One feels shock, but isn't hurt oneself.

 

[matt]

Dobro, no belittling on my part, I just thought 'lyrical dance' sounded nice too

The last few posts in this thread are a good example of 38 - the polarisation of interpretation - meanings can be derived from two (and more) distinct ways - the individual sees their own truth - each individual has their own way of 'seeing', neither is right or wrong, they are just polarised possibilties.

The key to understanding the situation as a whole is to consider ALL that has been said. There is value in Dobro's interpretation, value in Bruce's interpretation, value in Bradfords interpretation - because they are all self-truths, they all exist in an individual sense. Thats the beauty of polarising - recognising the value in everything, even those things that oppose us.

 

[void]

Mmm also 38,6 I thought was about someone 'seeing' others as 'pigs covered in filth', in other words suspecting someones motives wrongly, 'seeing' through your own clouded perspective what is not really there.

In the case of 38,6 in my own experience that turns out to describe the situation very well. Now if it were the case that I was 'seeing' the people as a group of 'pigs' and indeed they actually were and my perception is correct then - well that throws an entirely new light on it...

 

[bruce]

Jesed, I understand how real and illusion in-breed. (Ever spend nights in an unknown forest while under the influence of peyote?) If this is how Brad intended it, I'm fine with that. However, it still doesn't discriminate the difference between 38.3 as a misguided subjective impression of the junzi from the inner truth of what is actually happening. One can find their delusions within their illusions, as well as finding their truth.

 

[matt]

"One can find their delusions within their illusions, as well as finding their truth."

Agreed

 

[bruce]

Matt, I hear what you?re saying, but as was pointed out to me here awhile back , we must be cautious not to confuse Rorschach with I Ching. While I believe many of Yi?s answers are fluid to fit many bowls, there also are clearly definitive implications. I believe 38.3 exhibits clean articulation in its inference to subjective appearence vs truth of the matter. But then, maybe not.

 

[bradford_h]

Bruce-

It didn't open cuz I screwed up and wrote .pdf instead of .zip. To click is to download. It's got all the words in the Yijing that are used 5 or more times.
http://www.hermetica.info/I-YiGloss.zip

I've known/seen a few great men in my time. They have an effect on you. Meeting-type-seeing them is a whole lot different than seeing them on TV or in a documentary. You are inspired, your life changes. It's not a detached sort of witnessing.
I think jian4 type seeing means to have an experience that's much deeper than abstract or aloof. It's meeting in Martin Buber's sense when he said "all real living is meeting".

 

[bruce]

Brad, thanks. I've saved it to the Yi folder and will, I'm sure, be referencing it.

Can't say I've had the pleasure of meeting the sort of sage you refer to, physically. But I can imagine the impact, as I have met them elsewhere.

Guys, I'm exhausted.

 

[bruce]

umm, thinking just one brain cell more, I did meet such a man who made a tremendous impact on me, and not due to his celebrity, but due to his incredible humility and genius.

 

[dobro p]

This is a good thread - I'm seeing all sorts of stuff in this line that I never saw before.

But maybe I shouldn't say 'seeing' lol.

Ewald, okay, you're onto something. But how do you read the last line in 38.3? I render it something like "without at first, having completion", and one meaning I give it is "you can't bring things to their natural completion right away" (in this case, the thing you can't bring to completion right away is what you're witnessing, which is pretty unpleasant).

 

[ewald]

Dobro - I see the last line referring to all the problems that the man that is seen has gotten himself into. It's "not the first time" he's gotten into trouble, as two different punishments are visible on him: his nose is cut off and his forehead is branded. Now he's gotten into some kind of trouble for at least a third time (but probably the XXth time), which will be "the last time" or "the end of it."

Muller (username: guest, no password) has
for chu1:
# Commencement, inception; the beginning, the opening, the start, the first, the outset.
# For the first time; just.

and for zhong1:
# To bring to an end.
# To come to an end.
# The end, the finish.
# In the end; finally.
# Death.
# The whole of, after all.
# Still, yet.

 

[ewald]

This is the Chinese text:

So this last line has only 4 characters, none of which means "good" in any way:

wu2 - chu1 - you3 - zhong1.
not - first - there is - end.

 

[bradford_h]

It should be noted that this sentence "wu chu you zhong" also occurs at 57.5, just prior to "before renewing, three days, after renewing, three days".

 

[dobro p]

Ewald - "So this last line has only 4 characters, none of which means "good" in any way"

They don't have a 'good' meaning, true. Unless of course they signal an end to the picture presented in the first three lines. Is that what's going on, do you think? I suppose that might depend on whether you think Hex 14 being the relating hex has any bearing on the meaning of 38.3...

 

[dobro p]

Brad - 57.5 noted. In that one, that line follows a good/positive/auspicious cluster of lines, so I'm sort of thinking that it doesn't negate or cancel out or dispel lines that precede it. But it seems to indicate some sort of delay involved, especially considering the three lines that follow it.

If that's the case, then Minnie's dealing with a period of waiting before something important happens.

 

[ewald]

Dobro - I don't believe that there is a direct relation between the relating hex and a line. In the case of a consultation with a single changing line, the Fan Yao (here 14.3) is imo more interesting than the hexagram text (14.0). The Fan Yao usually has a similar theme, but naturally differs in some respect. If a Fan Yao is "good", the original line by no means needs to be "good" as well. It may very well be a bit of a mirror image.

I'm translating 14.0 as:
<blockquote>Noble being,
a source of fulfillment.</blockquote>
and 14.3 as:
<blockquote>A duke offering to the Son of Heaven.
An ordinary man is incapable of this.</blockquote>
So that 14.0 and 14.3 are "noble," by no means means that 38.3 needs to be "noble" as well. Here 14.3 is more of a mirror image, it's the opposite of "noble." In 14.3 there is a sacrifice, which is something of a loss for the good, while in 38.3 there is a loss for the bad (for that man's ego defenses probably).

But you might argue that it's good that the "bad" situation comes to an end.

 

[ewald]

Dobro - I don't agree with in 57.5 the line not following something negative. There is "Regret goes away," so something negative has happened in the past - else there wouldn't be a previous regret. It's just that in this particular situation something is done about that.

 

[bradford_h]

I think the occurrence in 57.5 suggests that this might be a phrase taken from the larger culture, one which might be a) undertsood literally by analyzing the words, or b) an idiomatic expression whose meaning may only be guessed at. This might be an attempt to find a meaning for the statement that fits into both 38.3 and 57.5 contexts.
If I had to take a stab at the former, I would try "without beginning, there will be an end". "You" seems to be used many times in the Yijing as the future tense of the verb "to be". I might suggest the phrase might mean: although the causes of an even unfold infinitely back into the past, this does not prevent us from tying it off or resolving it in the present, or from finding some kind of closure.

 

[dobro p]

Brad - yes, some kind of closure in the context of a process that takes some time. That fits in both cases. Nice.

Ewald - I often see a direct relation of meaning between a particular line and the relating hex, but not always. In the case of 38.3, I see a little connection with 14.3 and a bigger connection with 14.0.

 

[jesed]

Just in case the comment could be useful

Wilhelm is not just a "word by word" translator. As you had said, the final part of the line have several ways of being translate. Not of one have "good" as textual translation. To clarify the "sense" of that final part (it means, not a accurate word by word translation, but giving the equivalent meaning) Whilelm had use the interconections of the line

a) The Past Cause of Line 38.3 can be found in Line 8.3
b) The Future Effect (what Bradford called fan yao) of line 38.3 can be found in line 14.3

So, the "begining" in the text of line 38.3 was a bad begining (8.3); and the "end" in the text of line 38.3 will be a good end (14.3)

Maybe we can see this more clear if we put it like telling a story:
"In the past you had joined unfair people (8.3), but now that unfair union is being finishing in the middle of hinderences and even humiliations (38.3) Even if the begining was unfair/bad, if you have a great heart, what seems to be a lost would be actually a great benefit for you (14.3)"

Of course, I'm not saying that this is "the truth, all the truth and nothing but the truth"... just trying to explain how Whilelm came with "bad begining/good end"

 

[ewald]

Jesed - Can you explain how you derive the Past Cause of 38.3 in 8.3?

 

[jesed]

ps

now, if we apply this to the original question, we cann't say "we have problems now, but we'll be together again".

To me, the answer is like the Sages telling to Minnie

"Dear Minnie: this was an unfair relationship (8.3); nowadays you are facing the oposition and you are feeling a little humiliated (38.3) but if you have a great heart, you'll find that having lost this relationship will be better for you (14.3)"

 

[jesed]

This is a basic tool in traditional teachings:

To find the past cause of any line, change all the lines except the line you are focusing (and read only the coresponding line, not the entire hex); to find the future effect of any line, change only the line you are focusing (and read only the coresponding line, not the entire hex).

So, in 38.3.. to find it cause, you change lines 1-2-4-5-6.. it gives you earth in the inner trigram and water in the outer trigram. So, the cause is in the line 3 of hex 8


Note: this is only a tool for expand the comprehension of the sense... one doesn't write another hexagrams... the principal answer is in the principal hexagram... the principal sense of the line is in the line. But reading the line at the light of its cause and effect helps to understand better

 

[jesed]

A little more speculation, at the light of traditional teachings, in case that could be interesting:


About "wu chu you zhong" in 57

Hexagram 57 belongs to a clasification as Cliclic Signs. This ciclic signs point to a ciclic work of reconstruction, ending in hex 18.

So, the "begining" and "3 day before change"; and the "end" and "3 days after" in 57.5 are in reference of the work of 18.

Cause of 57.5 is in 17.5 Your heart is in the truth
Effect of 57.5 is in 18.5 The work to correct what was spoiled is done

So: there is somenthing spoiled but your heart remains in the truth (17.5), so now your are trying to undertand what to correct and how to correct it in order to get the sorrow away (57.5) and that achieve the correction could be done (18.5)

Again, a bad begining is turned to a good end, in this case because a right comprehension of the situation (57)

 

[jross]

Dear friends,

Thank you each and everyone of you for all of your comments - I am sincerely grateful.

I am actually very confused about what I should do now - I have one potential relationship with somebody who is willing to offer me everything; support, friendship, love, marriage and is one of the kindest people I have ever had the good fortune to meet and then there the other, my previous relationship.....this person seems to be so terrified of being hurt again and tells me that he is damaged! A choice of the substance or the shadow - do I opt for the easy life with someone that I don't really love or do I opt for the hard one with the person I adore.

I know I am in desperately in love with my ex' and the new one is somebody I wish I could be in love with. What do I do? I never imagined I would ever be put in such a difficult position. I know who I should stick with....but can't help my feelings. I know I don't want to be hurt again and I certainly don't want to hurt anyone unnecessarily.

Over the last few days I have asked the Yi for some more support on the subject as I am totally confused. So, I asked it again if there was any hope of a reconcilation between Stu and I - 53 (Gradual Progress) came up with changes at 53.1. and 53.3 changing to 31 (Wooing). Now what? What does this mean? And because I did not understand what this meant I asked it again last night what was going to happen with Stu and I and it came up with 24 - no changing lines.

I have decided to stay away from Stu and only remain in contact with him if he makes contact with me and tells me exactly what he wants from now on. If he is unwilling to give me the commitment I want or deserve then perhaps he is indeed not the one afterall.

If any of you have any points of wisdom you wish to offer me then I would be sincerely grateful.

Thank you again kindly.



Minne x

 

[ewald]

Minnie - In my opinion 38.3 has been telling you that the relationship with your ex is over. You seem to be fairly attached to your ex, though.

You might try and find out why you don't love this new person you wish you could be in love with. Maybe something important isn't there - or maybe you're too attached to your ex to be able to move on with your life.

Actually 53 changing to 31 has changing lines 53.4 and 53.6 not 1 and 3...

 

[jross]

Dear friends,

I feel like a total fool. I have been using the I Ching for two or more years now and have always used it correctly, but because of stress related problems of late (I'd say within the last 4 weeks or so) I think I may have managed to confuse myself when interpreting the changing lines by reading the lines from back to front. I can not say for sure, until I go home this evening and look through my book of recent readings. I have spent most of this afternoon feeling very sorry for myself because having read the I Ching I truly believed it offered me a true insight into my relationship problem and some possible hope for the future. I am now unsure. Perhaps somebody is trying to tell me something - all I know is I am very unhappy and for some bizarre reason I am unable to let go.

Thank you to all those who have been kind enough to give me their thoughts on the subject - it means a great deal to me.


Minnie x

 

[matt]

"It should be noted that this sentence "wu chu you zhong" also occurs at 57.5, just prior to "before renewing, three days, after renewing, three days"."

Bradford, its interesting you should say that (I have no knowledge of the original chinese in the translation) because in the dual cycles I use that run paralell to each other, hexagrams 38 and 57 share space together, they are in the same position directly related.

Picture:-

So if you look at the correlation between the 3rd line and the 5th line, then it would take 3 full revolutions to move from the beginning of 3rd to the end of the 5th... a correlation in image and text it seems.

 

[jross]

Some of you may remember a number of weeks ago I asked for some advice about an ongoing problem I was having with an ex-boyfriend. I am now in a new relationship wiith someone I am extremely fond of and who I have great respect for - however, I still have feelings for my ex. I know this is wrong, but I can't seem to let go of him. I think I still love him. I truly thought that the relationship with him was over - so I moved on and gave up on him.

Two weeks ago I saw him out for the first time and all those feelings that I thought had disappeared returned with a vengence. Seeing him again filled my stomach with butterflies. We laughed and when he found out I was with someone new, he became very defensive and argumentative. I have been in contact again and he has suggested we meet up as friends. I have been lost as what to do - so I threw the I Ching and it came up with 49.2 changing to 55.

Can anyone offer me some clarity on this reading please. My head is all over the place.

Thank you.



Minnie x

 

[frank]

Hi Minnie,

49 is about revelution, line 2 about organising your own feelings insite (trigram below, only yang line in position 2, makes hex. 7, the army / organisation / discipline and 55 knowing things are great, but flowing... What do you self make of that?

Hug,
Frank