Thoughts on “The Oracle of the Cosmic Way”?

[settan3579]

Hello,

I’ve studied the I Ching for a few years now, and after my Whilhelm translation was stolen I decided to look for other translations that spoke to me.
One that caught my eye was Carol Anthony’s and Hannah Moog’s translation/version, “The Oracle of the Cosmic Way.”
For those who aren’t familiar with it, they basically tried to develop a version of the I Ching that was modern and removed the feudal imagery from the Image and Lines. They did this by using what they call the “retrospective three coin method” which basically is throwing three coins and getting varieties of yes or no based on the value, and doing this while asking the Sage if they were understanding things correctly, until they received a yes. They did this for the whole book and came up with a different version of it.
I like some of the ideas contained within it. They speak a lot of the collective ego and how it conditions the individual through what they call “spells, projections, and poison arrows.” They also talk a lot about various “Helper” spirits that one can call on for “deprogramming” beliefs, images, etc., that are of an egoic nature.
I did a reading tonight, received hexagram 17, and read their version of it. The Judgment felt familiar and relevant in some senses, but their commentary felt strange, mainly because of their recommendations for “deprogramming” and the “mini-meditations.” It seemed focused less on the text and more on their recommendations for ridding oneself of ego in light of the hexagram. Which isn’t so bad, that’s a lot of spiritual practice, but I’m hesitant as to how they came to this point if that makes any sense.
I’m curious if anyone has worked with this version and/or has thoughts about it. If you’ve worked with it, did it sit well with you? Is it a viable version to use?

Thanks!
Settan

 

[my_key]

As you have mentioned this can be an alternative and effective resource for personal psychology and growth / self development. It is based in a different approach and so has to be something that resonates with you. It needs perseverance for the connections to become strong with this approach.

 

[moss elk]

I cannot, in good conscience,
recommend Carol Anthony.

 

[Trojina]

I’ve studied the I Ching for a few years now, and after my Whilhelm translation was stolen I decided to look for other translations that spoke to me.

A thief who takes Wilhelm!? Dear me, well I hope they learn better values from it. I guess you mean a friend took it and didn't give it back, I had visions of a burglar climbing in through the window, leaving the jewels and money and taking off with a copy of Wilhelm

One that caught my eye was Carol Anthony’s and Hannah Moog’s translation/version, “The Oracle of the Cosmic Way.”
For those who aren’t familiar with it, they basically tried to develop a version of the I Ching that was modern and removed the feudal imagery from the Image and Lines. They did this by using what they call the “retrospective three coin method” which basically is throwing three coins and getting varieties of yes or no based on the value, and doing this while asking the Sage if they were understanding things correctly, until they received a yes. They did this for the whole book and came up with a different version of it.

The idea that they have to toss 3 coins to get a yes or no for understanding seems a very dissociated way of connecting with Yi. If we consult the I Ching we do not need to do that.

What they have ended up with is not a version of the I Ching it's their own book loosely based on the I Ching. In removing imagery and trying to make it modern they removed Yi basically.

I like some of the ideas contained within it. They speak a lot of the collective ego and how it conditions the individual through what they call “spells, projections, and poison arrows.” They also talk a lot about various “Helper” spirits that one can call on for “deprogramming” beliefs, images, etc., that are of an egoic nature.

Hmmm and none of this is actually in the I Ching. What they've done is take their own philosophical/psychological values and laid them heavily over the I Ching, that is tried to remake the I Ching according to their world view. I found when reading Anthony years ago that it was worth reading, interesting always to get a new take especially at that time, but I soon got tired of every single answer being interpreted in terms of 'the ego' and 'inferiors'.

You could have this in your collection but I don't recommend it as a great guide to what the I Ching actually says. You can't beat Hilary, Bradford, LiSe, Wilhelm and some others for a good clear translation. And when I say 'translation' I mean from the ancient chinese, the actual words of Yi which is what we want to hear afterall. The commentary is the bit where the author says what they think it might mean, so those are not the words of Yi, (although good in themselves you cannot hang on to them)and that will always be insufficient, no matter how good, for the scope the translation can address

I did a reading tonight, received hexagram 17, and read their version of it. The Judgment felt familiar and relevant in some senses, but their commentary felt strange, mainly because of their recommendations for “deprogramming” and the “mini-meditations.” It seemed focused less on the text and more on their recommendations for ridding oneself of ego in light of the hexagram. Which isn’t so bad, that’s a lot of spiritual practice, but I’m hesitant as to how they came to this point if that makes any sense.

Well to be fair there are many people who have rewritten the I Ching in the flavour of their own religion or philosophy. I think Anthony is fundamentally a Buddhist stance on Yi somewhat - perhaps with a great deal of her brand of psychology and values thrown in. You can use it and find it interesting or useful but you need to be aware it's not really the I Ching you're reading, it's Anthony.

Their emphasis is fixated on getting rid of the ego, the I Ching much bigger, more vast, vast beyond our knowledge than that. Their commentary is just their commentary so it's something to hear but if you are consulting Yi with a question it is Yi's words you need with their commentary as an afterthought if you like to read it.

 

[my_key]

Their emphasis is fixated on getting rid of the ego, the I Ching much bigger, more vast, vast beyond our knowledge than that. Their commentary is just their commentary so it's something to hear but if you are consulting Yi with a question it is Yi's words you need with their commentary as an afterthought if you like to read it.

For me, when I worked with this book (many years ago) it felt less like being 'fixated on' and more 'couched in' - there was movement and some alternative perspectives as I recall. Similarly, I hold a differing view regarding 'getting rid of the ego'. Their work is based in transforming the ego rather than getting rid of it. The last thing humankind needs is to be without ego. through having ejected it from our being.

I agree that Yi's words are the basis for all transformations and eventual transfigurations. Any commentaries that resonate with the querent, though, can help smooth (enlighten) the process of transformation that has been originated by the query.

 

[settan3579]

I cannot, in good conscience,
recommend Carol Anthony.

Any particular reason why?

 

[settan3579]

A thief who takes Wilhelm!? Dear me, well I hope they learn better values from it. I guess you mean a friend took it and didn't give it back, I had visions of a burglar climbing in through the window, leaving the jewels and money and taking off with a copy of Wilhelm


The idea that they have to toss 3 coins to get a yes or no for understanding seems a very dissociated way of connecting with Yi. If we consult the I Ching we do not need to do that.

What they have ended up with is not a version of the I Ching it's their own book loosely based on the I Ching. In removing imagery and trying to make it modern they removed Yi basically.


Hmmm and none of this is actually in the I Ching. What they've done is take their own philosophical/psychological values and laid them heavily over the I Ching, that is tried to remake the I Ching according to their world view. I found when reading Anthony years ago that it was worth reading, interesting always to get a new take especially at that time, but I soon got tired of every single answer being interpreted in terms of 'the ego' and 'inferiors'.

You could have this in your collection but I don't recommend it as a great guide to what the I Ching actually says. You can't beat Hilary, Bradford, LiSe, Wilhelm and some others for a good clear translation. And when I say 'translation' I mean from the ancient chinese, the actual words of Yi which is what we want to hear afterall. The commentary is the bit where the author says what they think it might mean, so those are not the words of Yi, (although good in themselves you cannot hang on to them)and that will always be insufficient, no matter how good, for the scope the translation can address




Well to be fair there are many people who have rewritten the I Ching in the flavour of their own religion or philosophy. I think Anthony is fundamentally a Buddhist stance on Yi somewhat - perhaps with a great deal of her brand of psychology and values thrown in. You can use it and find it interesting or useful but you need to be aware it's not really the I Ching you're reading, it's Anthony.

Their emphasis is fixated on getting rid of the ego, the I Ching much bigger, more vast, vast beyond our knowledge than that. Their commentary is just their commentary so it's something to hear but if you are consulting Yi with a question it is Yi's words you need with their commentary as an afterthought if you like to read it.

Funny enough someone actually did steal the Whilhelm book, along with other Dharma books and whatnot. They broke into my car. Ah well, may it serve them haha.

Hmm, a lot of this was my sense of what was happening. I’m trying to find a translation that really allows the student to delve into the I Ching as an internal process and take it into oneself, so to speak, but still want to hold onto the original spirit and intention. This certainly seems like it took the original and ran with it.

Maybe time to find a new translation that is simple and allows for one to delve deeper. Maybe I should finally read the 10 wings haha.

thanks for your response!

 

[settan3579]

For me, when I worked with this book (many years ago) it felt less like being 'fixated on' and more 'couched in' - there was movement and some alternative perspectives as I recall. Similarly, I hold a differing view regarding 'getting rid of the ego'. Their work is based in transforming the ego rather than getting rid of it. The last thing humankind needs is to be without ego. through having ejected it from our being.

I agree that Yi's words are the basis for all transformations and eventual transfigurations. Any commentaries that resonate with the querent, though, can help smooth (enlighten) the process of transformation that has been originated by the query.

I see what you’re saying in it. Their viewpoint isn’t one what I have an issue with, but what I’m realizing is that they, in essence, view the I Ching from that viewpoint.
In their foreword they speak of having consulted the Sage intensely throughout the process of writing the translation, and how it was surprising no one else had thought of this, but that seems like a very easy way to bring more mis-interpretations in.
But there is something to the work they did, which is what I’m trying to sense into.
Thanks for your view and input, I appreciate hearing that!

 

[moss elk]

Any particular reason why?

Because of all the wacky/dizzy quotes of hers I have read on dekorne's site...
He used to have her commentary even before the image & judgement (huge mistake)
But it looks like he has edited some of it out.

Mostly I disapproved of her commentary/leaning that readings are all about the internal environment of the querent.
Many readings are literal and external, so her commentary is.... lacking to put it mildly.
And could be misleading when people get a literal external referencing answer and then spend days wondering how to kill their ego, when Yi has just told them to drive less and walk more in order to lose weight. (22.1)

Dive internal when the reading is about you(r internal)
Look out when the answer is outward.

Learning to discern what is being referred to is of utmost importance,
A 2nd set of eyes, such as those provided here can help.

 

[IrfanK]

Funny enough someone actually did steal the Whilhelm book, along with other Dharma books and whatnot. They broke into my car. Ah well, may it serve them haha.

Hmm, a lot of this was my sense of what was happening. I’m trying to find a translation that really allows the student to delve into the I Ching as an internal process and take it into oneself, so to speak, but still want to hold onto the original spirit and intention. This certainly seems like it took the original and ran with it.

Maybe time to find a new translation that is simple and allows for one to delve deeper. Maybe I should finally read the 10 wings haha.

thanks for your response!

Well, if it was me, I'd go out and buy another copy of Wilhelm, for a start. Couldn't imagine the bookshelf without that one. And easy enough to find in any well-stocked second-hand bookshop for not much north of five bucks.

But it's good to look at other translations as well. Pick one or two that are quite different from Wilhelm. Freeman Crouch is fun, easy to read, gives you a sort of digest of all that bronze age stuff. There's a lot in there to think about. Completely different from the traditional understanding, based on all that 20th century research. Some fun stories and ideas in it. Available as a cheap kindle book, if you use them.

Hilary's translation is nice, too. She draws on a lot of the post-Wilhelm stuff, too, there's quite a lot to learn from it if you've worked mainly with Wilhelm. She also disagrees with some of his more neo-Confucian interpretations. Also good for encouraging you to engage directly with the text and not on commentaries -- even her own.

More than one translation is good. You get a few points on the map, and the treasure is probably buried somewhere between them.

As for Anthony and Moog ... well, yeah. What everyone else said. I picked up an electronic copy for 50 cents from a dodgy book dealer in Chinatown, read it for about half an hour, and have never looked at it again. I think I paid about the right price for it.