trouble understanding 47.2

[legume]

i have trouble fully understanding who’s the oppressor in 47.2.

so a while ago i quit smoking cannabis, as i told myself while still being a heavy user that it’s a form of an experiment that i’ll run for a certain amount of time and then shall stop. and i did. in the exact time i planned.

now, it’s not that i will never smoke again, however for the time being i’m completely avoiding taking this „medicine” to have happiness. i might use it again occasionally but probably only in social situations, as wouldn’t want to depend on it when on my own.

but i do get cravings and sometimes out of curiosity ask Yi what if i just go and get me some weed. to my surprise i always get a one line response that ends with „good fortune”. yet i still restrain myself and don’t give in to the temptation.

today was one such occasion and Yi’s answer was 35.5, again, good fortune. but the resulting 12 made me stop myself and refocus. so i asked simply: what if i continue without weed and the resulting cast was 47.2 > 45

this, in contrast with previous readings surprised me a bit and got me thinking if maybe i’m being too harsh on myself? am i oppressing myself with this strict decision to cease taking any „soma” (reference to Huxley’s brave new world)? or is the reading just saying that to continue this way may cause me some discomfort, yet with time i’ll eventually overcome it by „patience of spirit” as Wilhelm puts it in the comment?

i feel that i do get the gist of it but i’m completely stumped as to the offering / sacrifice part. i also don’t feel at all oppressed regarding eating or drinking, if anything i’ve been taking better care of myself recently, with its ups and downs of course. „to set forth brings misfortune” makes me think that, as said, i’m not ready to let myself have occasional smoke even, however the question was about not smoking, so also a bit confused here. and who would the man with red knee bands be in this situation?

i’m really curious about your interpretations, thanks so much in advance.

 

[mandarin_23]

Hi legume,

47.2 might well rely to your cravings. This is a confiment - to crave for something you don't want to get yourself. An addiction or even a strong habit might be quite an oppression. You are just sobering up, and it isn't that easy. Maybe it also gives advice to your situation in general. Circumstances to endure.

35.5 - "let go" - in my experience can be something like a "you don't have to do that, things are fine anyway, don't worry". So this really doesn't say you've got to get yourself anything.

All the best to you,
Mandarine

 

[becalm]

I'm with Mandarine. To me it's just saying you miss it sometimes and you're not even sure if you feel better not taking it in terms of happiness. Clearly it's much better for your health but in what other ways has it changed your life.
Personally I'm not keen on it because it partly destroyed my marriage.....I never believed in the damage it could cause someones brain, until I saw it for myself.

 

[legume]

This is a confiment - to crave for something you don't want to get yourself.

thanks, that's a really good point that i probably missed in my interpretation.

You are just sobering up, and it isn't that easy.

yup it might as well take another decade until i flush my system fully out of exocannabinoids that have been running the show and until my own endocannabinoids come back into play. but it's also something that makes me feel i don't need it anymore at this point.

you're not even sure if you feel better not taking it in terms of happiness

well, i’m sure i'm not interested in searching for happiness (equanimity is more of my thing). i understand how this whole happiness orientation can be important for some and i learned to respect it, as have few close british friends who value happiness more than other things in life. but slowly and finally i’m also learning to value my own cultural background.

in some slavic languages there’s only one and the same word for happiness and luck. and as the old chinese tale goes: good luck, bad luck, well, who knows what’s best.

funnily enough, there's no one simple word for enjoy in my language, so nobody tells anyone to enjoy something (though we're slowly starting to copy it and use the word "enjoy" itself for lack of equivalent and due to the fact the whole anglo-saxon culture is kinda becoming a global communication device).
it took me a while to stop getting annoyed anytime an english speaker would tell me to enjoy something, as if that was the one and correct way to experience any given situation or... my life. but ok, i get it’s not meant as an order

I never believed in the damage it could cause someones brain, until I saw it for myself.

again, i understand we all have a cultural and personal bias when interpreting other people's readings, but it feels like you barely even touched on the cast itself. in previous one, re my unemployment, your comment (because there's too many people doing the same thing as you) came across as basically trying to guilt-trip me for something that's happening in your country that had nothing to do with my situation, while this time you're sort of indirectly calling me brain-damaged?

most likely you didn't mean to. however, please try to understand how differently we may perceive things or how you may come across (possibly just to a non-native speaker) when sharing personal opinions like this.

anyway, i will update with time how the situation unravels, if it sheds some new light on my understanding of the line.

 

[dfreed]

Legume, you asked:

what if i continue without weed and the resulting cast was 47.2 > 45

I think the advice here is that YOU SHOULD CONTINUE without weed.

The words of 47.2 (from Rutt) that stand out for me are:
'Beset while taking food and beer, when scarlet-girded men appear. Favorable for offering a sacrifice'.

'Beset while taking food and beer' I can see as being 'befuddled (or beset, or set upon) by cannabis'. The Scarlet-girded men appear as perhaps authority figures, but since your concern isn't about breaking laws, they are not police, but maybe 'spirit officials' - perhaps your own sense of what is needed.

They are here to remind you that a sacrifice is favorable - which for you involves giving up weed.

On a practical note, there is an expression, 'fixing the omen'. There are two explanations I've heard: one involves the act of asking the oracle twice, once via the oracle bones and and also via the yarrow stalks (or Yi). It has the flavor of the carpenters' adage: 'measure twice, cut once'. The other meaning is that it was a specific ritual that one did to 'fix' the oracle, to make it real.

For you, 'fixing the omen' means sticking with this advice for a while, maybe a month or so, and not coming back in a few hours, or a day, or a few days to ask, 'should I still continue (with or) without weed?' If you do, then you're like an alcoholic who every few hours says, "I haven't had a drink for few hours, so I think it's now okay if I do." That is just more being beset and befuddled.

You need to take enough time to 'fix the omen' - to actually let the advice work.

Best, D

 

[becalm]

Lol - don't consider you brain damaged, have seen no evidence of that plus I don't know you personally.
Pot is a sore spot for me and I watched a very intelligent man (husband) destroy more than his brain cells). Re the other post about employment, again I don't know your circumstances and I know a few people who've taken time out to work out what they want and relied on government benefits. We all need that at some time.
Potentially I think it's just a language barrier at times and the fact that it's written text and not spoken and comes across as talking AT people.

 

[legume]

I think the advice here is that YOU SHOULD CONTINUE without weed.

agreed

maybe 'spirit officials' - perhaps your own sense of what is needed.

this really resonated with me, thank you!

They are here to remind you that a sacrifice is favorable - which for you involves giving up weed.

so that's the part i also find problematic and wasn't too sure about. initially this was my thought as well, and i do agree with what you say later on, it's the addiction / habit / dependecy bit (pretty much indeed like an alcoholic or any addict for that matter) that's behind the impulse to ask these types of questions in the first place. yet the sacrifice somehow doesn't ring true in my mind.

in my personal semantic field there's always this dissonance between offering and sacrifice, as in sacrifice: to give up / a form of loss / destruction or surrender vs offering: to make an offer / a proposal / to give / contribute / something presented for acceptance. they're quite opposite (tho can be understood as certain type of yin to its yang) and that's another thing that makes me feel confused about this line.

thinking about this i looked back at original text of Yi and the character for sacrifice / offering in 47.2, that is xiang 享 to which google translate (oh, the irony, after i went on about how i don't have the word in my own language) produced "enjoy"

i'm aware this translator is far from correct when faced with ancient Chinese. still, the synchronicity!

only then i remembered about a year ago i got me Language of Change by Hilary (highly recommended) and i found few bits worth sharing (though if i'm in any way abusing copyright by this post, please let me know and will edit / delete if too much, but hopefully this can serve as an advertisement ).

"An offering redirects your attention back to your origins." and for the idea of offering Hilary gives some related English phrases: What you bring to the table, What you have to offer, Putting yourself out there, investing yourself, Mindfulness

then i also learned that: Heng 亨 is very closely related to xiang 享, the word used for ‘offering’ in 41.0, 42.2 and 47.2. and Yong heng, 用亨, meaning making offering (...) appears at 14.3, 17.6 and 46.4. Like yong xiang, it means the act of making an offering.

on the chapter on offerings Hilary refers to Liji, the Book of Rites in Legge's translation, with this quote:

“Sacrifice is not a thing coming to a man from without; it issues from within him, and has its birth in his heart. When the heart is deeply moved, expression is given to it by ceremonies; and hence, only men of ability and virtues can give complete expression to the idea of sacrifices.”

i found this profoundly helpful, so thought i'd share. i'm much more inclined to understand this line now in terms of giving, rather than giving up (especially since the line itself is yang, thus active), as it also relates to phrases such as "set forth" or "move forward". more about them all in the aforementioned book.

You need to take enough time to 'fix the omen' - to actually let the advice work.

it's pretty much a given that the understanding comes in hindsight, so will make sure to update the thread after some time again, but the the idea of fixing the omen and the explanations sound very interesting, thanks for sharing

 

[legume]

Potentially I think it's just a language barrier at times and the fact that it's written text and not spoken and comes across as talking AT people.

hi becalm, no hard feelings and apologies if misunderstood your intention in my previous thread, obviously i might be a bit crabby considering the self imposed detox and the gov. imposed isolation... thanks for your reply!

 

[becalm]

hi becalm, no hard feelings and apologies if misunderstood your intention in my previous thread, obviously i might be a bit crabby considering the self imposed detox and the gov. imposed isolation... thanks for your reply!

Yeah it's you and your crabbiness......

It was actually weird for me to read that I'd offended you because noone's ever said that to me before (that I can recall) on here or in 'real life'. My gf of 30 years told me recently that's she's never, ever heard me be a bitch about or to anyone although I appreciate I can be a bit blunt sometimes.

 

[dfreed]

and the character for sacrifice / offering in 47.2, that is xiang 享 to which translate(s) produced "enjoy"

Looking at Hatcher, he has the phrase in question as: "li yong xiang si" and his matrix translation is:

"worthwhile (and) useful (for) offering (up a) sacrifice". So here 'xiang' is an offering, or offering up of something.

In Richard Rutt's translation, there is the fairly common phrase, 'sacrificing captives'. During Shang and Zhou times it was not uncommon for the king to make sacrifices (or sacrificial offerings) - which could include dozens or even hundreds of slaves, prisoners of war, and/or horses (and other animals). So a sacrifice carries a bit different meaning for me than an 'offering' - which feels much more like placing a bowl of rice on the alter, or 'offering up' a prayer or incantation.

Aside from that, I just sort of felt my way into what a 'sacrifice' meant in your situation. You were asking about 'continuing without weed' which feels like a kind of sacrifice - or giving up - on your part. I wasn't however looking for an exact match.

I think the advice here is that YOU SHOULD CONTINUE without weed.

Whatever the meaning/translation of 'sacrifice', this is the main point. And you agree about it too.

the idea of fixing the omen and the explanations sound very interesting,

This is more my own practical advice. I have no moral or spiritual objections to weed; I don't partake anymore but many of my friends do. The point is however, that if you're going to do this, you need to give it time for you to feel the effect - and see any subsequent results.

Best, David

 

[legume]

i was reading up more on 47 in relation to another cast and had Hatcher's commentary open at line 5 at the time of your post, with this sentence just speaking to me: "Maybe he could give up these thoughts about sacrifice." just thought it another funny coincidence.

and thank you for elaborating

 

[marybluesky]

Legume,

James Dekorne interprets 47.2 as "starving amidst plenty" and Hilary writes there is feast outside (45) but you remain confined in your place.
So the line seems to tell you're depriving yourself of the joy (! )- but it also says no mistake.

well, i’m sure i'm not interested in searching for happiness (equanimity is more of my thing). i understand how this whole happiness orientation can be important for some and i learned to respect it, as have few close british friends who value happiness more than other things in life. but slowly and finally i’m also learning to value my own cultural background.

in some slavic languages there’s only one and the same word for happiness and luck. and as the old chinese tale goes: good luck, bad luck, well, who knows what’s best.

funnily enough, there's no one simple word for enjoy in my language, so nobody tells anyone to enjoy something (though we're slowly starting to copy it and use the word "enjoy" itself for lack of equivalent and due to the fact the whole anglo-saxon culture is kinda becoming a global communication device).
it took me a while to stop getting annoyed anytime an english speaker would tell me to enjoy something, as if that was the one and correct way to experience any given situation or... my life. but ok, i get it’s not meant as an order

This part attracted me very much.

Comparing to my own experience, we do have an equivalent for "enjoy" in our language but I'm not likely to understand the notion well.
I consider the term to indicate a vivid sensual experience I hardly ever had if any. When they tell me to enjoy the life I can't imagine how. Frustrating indeed. Admittedly, the lack of joy has made me averse to people-oriented responsibilities such as motherhood and taking care of people, as I think I haven't had my share of life, so why investing in others?
They then say "but the mothers love their babies very much". WTF! What does it have to do with "enjoying"? OK, I may love my mother but it doesn't cause me any pleasure, nor removes my depression.

I would be more comfortable if I could go along with the old Chinese citation.

 

[rosada]

47.2
Confined while drinking and feasting.
Scarlet sashes come from all directions.
Fruitful to use thank offerings.
Setting forth to bring order: pitfall, no mistake.

Confined while drinking and feasting.
"To be confined here means the great frustration of not being able to participate." -Hilary
I see this as referring to your intention to not smoke even when you'd like to.

Scarlet sashes come from all directions.
"Scarlet sashes are worn by officials come to offer you a job." - Hilary
I see this as referring to opportunities to smoke, particularly offers from friends inviting you to share a smoke in social situations.

Fruitful to use thank offerings.
"It's good to respond with SMALL offerings, gently opening up channels of communication, deepening the experience, restoring alignment and harmony," - Hilary
I see this as saying smoking in small amounts can open up channels of communication (versus smoking so much a person becomes silent and brain dead).

Setting forth to bring order: pitfall. No mistake.
"It's not all that easy to bring order to the borders." - Hilary.
Knowing your limits, how much weed to smoke to enjoy company without overdoing and becoming a pot-head, is not all that easy so it's not a mistake to attempt to regulate your intake.

I see the IC as saying it's not wrong for you to renounce weed if you feel you've been inclined to over do but it also seems to be saying you need not be too hard on yourself. Moderation in all things.

 

[rosada]

Giving this some more thought. Many people claim they get some of their best insights from smoking. George Carlin, perhaps the greatest comedian/social activist ever famously revealed he wrote his routines first and then smoked marijuana "to get it right." In other words, he didn't just enjoy the smoke and space out. He did something with the insights he received. Doing something with the insights was like a "thank offering" to the Higher Consciousness that allowed him to briefly vibrate on their frequency.
This leads me to think "Fruitful to use thank offerings" could also mean it's good to do something with what you receive from smoking. If you smoke and have a grand "Aha! insight, like let's say you were a sportsman and you smoked pot and realized, "OMG, Animals evolved into creatures/humans with opposable thumbs so they could take better care of the animals!!" then it behooves one to actually do something with this insight. You can't ever kill again or you'll never make it to higher consciousness cause that's what higher consciousness is all about.. Up until then you were not responsible for any misguided selfish actions towards the animal kingdom (like killing them for sport), but once the Gods show you that killing for sport is wrong you must act on this revelation. Thus giving up this activity you enjoyed could be a sacrifice since you still live in a lower vibration but now that you have felt a higher vibration it would be wrong to go on living by the old ways.

Interesting that 45. represents groups. Perhaps the I Ching is giving you specific guidance for how to be around others47.2 Confined while eating and drinking - Not smoking when around others.

Sorry I have to come back to this.

 

[legume]

"Fruitful to use thank offerings" could also mean it's good to do something with what you receive from smoking.

this is great and kind of in line with my decision to stop smoking. so here's a bit of background and what i experienced / learned / gained from weed.

i could never get peer pressured and although had a lot of anxiety as a teenager or even later as a student i refused to use weed even tho it was widely available around, as told myself then that when i'm ready i'd like to use it for spiritual practice - i generally see plants as teachers and am a casual treehugger.

a good few years back, already about 5 years into using, i remember reading in John Mini's book on treating marijuana syndromes that in some traditions smoking cannabis is indeed considered connecting with the spirits and getting help from them, but in such "shamanic" practice gifts don't come for free and require sacrifice. this was also a possible explanation as to why when abusing weed some people might meet with misfortune (for the lack of a better word) - as in, the spirits would collect the energy that was given to the user who disrespected it, in a way.

it was a huge book i didn't read in full, but if anyone's interested here's more. there's also a bit about how women who smoke it for a long time might become more masculine (cannabis is fire in TCM terms, the yang energy travels up to the head, which, i feel, explains a lot about how it works) and i think it helped me get more accepting of my masculine part, both physically (i'm not very butch at all, but i am kinda flat chested, even more so now probably due to smoking) and spiritually, as in getting closer to my "animus".
at this point in life i feel very happy (if not happiest so far) with my female body and in balance regarding any androgynous features (recently found a passport photo of myself and played around in photoshop to explore my facial asymmetry to find that my right side looks like a curious boy, while the left like a compassionate woman, which kinda reflects the functions of each corresponding thus the opposite brain hemispheres). so that's another reason why stopping now seems in order, i wouldn't want to push this acceptance of self that i've gained recently off balance.

around that time i also came across an article (that i can't find anymore), that basically prompted me to think about how to bring what i learn from smoking to my sober life. i believe the most important benefit of weed for me personally was the so called "fu*k-it factor" or not getting so emotionally entangled in every situation. and i had seen it work anytime i stopped, though these were short periods of time when i was telling myself that there's enough of it still in my system that's working, rather than giving myself credit for actually staying level-headed at quite difficult times, when i'd normally expect to get overwhelmed. well, thinking about it now, maybe not giving myself credit was some form of gratitude to those green spirits for helping me out

btw, i'm a huge fan of George, so thank you for bringin him up!

there's definitely great amount of insight i got while smoking and contrary to popular belief, don't think i've yet forgotten it all. so maybe with time i'll bring those ideas that sprouted from high to fruition and possibly even allow myself to smoke once done.

weed pretty much works a bit like a magnifying glass, maybe that's why some people can't handle it well, as it can also magnify any negative emotions or preconceptions about the world or self. though there's also this concept of consciousness levels / vibrations from Hawkins, which makes me think that maybe when vibrating on a higher level taking weed or alcohol may bring someone down, simply as these substances vibrate on lower frequency than its user, while at the same time they can be more "uplifting" for others.

47.2 as "starving amidst plenty" and Hilary writes there is feast outside (45) but you remain confined in your place.

ha, this is so true, at the time i asked this we were planning to go out for beers with a friend, but we both stayed in and didn't meet because it's still too cold outside.

I see this as referring to opportunities to smoke, particularly offers from friends inviting you to share a smoke in social situations.

yes, that's also what i first thought. and as mentioned, was to meet a friend with whom we occasionally like to get high. i wondered if should sacrifice my laziness (apparently an inherent trait of mine and not weed related ), clean up, make dinner and offer for her to come over (which i'll probably act on in the near future) but got too caught up in other things and in the meantime had another friend (who doesn't smoke) unexpectedly visit my town and we had a nice walk.

but if my smoking friend comes over wearing some red around her knees i'll make sure to report on the fact.

Interesting that 45. represents groups. Perhaps the I Ching is giving you specific guidance for how to be around others47.2 Confined while eating and drinking - Not smoking when around others.

i have to agree with that, though initially thought it's in the social situations i'll allow myself to keep it, i now feel it's actually more the opposite, as it blocks emotions and so severs the truer connection when with others. either way, for now i need to cease using it completely and so far it's leading me to gathering resources / planning my future / signing up for courses - hopefully in time not just online, but also with people.