Help Greece please!

diamanda · Jun 30, 2015

Hi everyone,

There's this new page online to help Greece by crowd-funding:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story

The guy who started it is an English guy from York, and by what he says he sounds like a really kind helpful person. He's already gathered 253,000 euros in 2 days (5 minutes ago that I checked)! The website keeps crashing from too many hits, but hopefully it will be up again soon.

I hope this crazy and kind new idea rocks the world in a good way!
Please donate something if you can!

A bit of background, in case you're interested:

As you've probably all heard, Greece is in deep financial trouble.

The cause of it, in a nutshell, is a series of endless loans over the decades.
All that loaned money was mainly:

a) spent to repay instalments/interest of previous loans
b) spent on purchases of weapons from European countries
c) placed right into the pockets of some elite politicians

The result is that for the past few years, Greek people have been seriously suffering.
People cannot find any jobs and many rely on their parents' severely diminished pensions to survive.

I'm sure more eloquent people could put all this in a much better way, but in essence, this situation is not the fault of the people, and it is they who are suffering.

Fingers crossed for Greece!

pocossin · Jun 30, 2015

Look, Diamanda, do you objected to my appraisal of the situation:

In my opinion the so-called referendum is irrelevant. It is another attempt to evade repayment of debt. I agree with the finance minister of Greece that the debt is impossible to pay back. I agree with northern Europeans that it is absurd that they should continue to pay for a retirement system in Greece that is more generous than their own. I see nothing but catastrophe -- that is, a return to reality

I am a conservative who thinks that socialism -- rob from the rich to give to the poor -- is the root of all evil, because it justifies unlimited robbery. That was the rationale of my namesake "Robin Hood", or the American Jesse James, who allegedly stole from the rich to give to the poor, and if history is any guide, the current leader of Greece is lining his pockets with stolen goods. Actually, the rich have the sense to remove their money from thieves, so the poor victims are those who are queued before ATM machines today. Class warfare between the haves and have-nots goes back in Greece over two thousand year. Recently, labor has had the upper hand and has extorted bizarre concessions that cannot be maintained unless paid for by the rest of Europe, especially the Germans. Were I am German, no way would I tolerate further Greek predation.

diamanda · Jun 30, 2015

Pocossin, I agree with one of your points, and disagree with the others because they are inaccurate.

The referendum is not an excuse to not pay the debt.
It is an objection to how this debt will be paid.
The troika themselves admit that their proposed measures will not help them to get back the debt!
http://www.theguardian.com/business...sis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed

So, the troika proposed measures are definitely not the way, and the Greeks are correct in not wanting them
(even the troika admit that their measures are not constructive).

Also, Europe is not "paying for the Greek retirement system".
The loan money goes straight back to the lenders, plus to more arms purchases from Europe.

But I'll agree with you on this: the Greek public services / pensions system (NOT pension amounts) need heavy revising.

As about the current Greek governing party, it's their first time in office.
I am hoping that they will not do what the previous ones did - line their pockets, well documented...
At least they should be given a chance to see IF they will be any different to the others.

This is not a class warfare.
It's just typical loan-shark behaviour.

diamanda · Jun 30, 2015

I'd like to add this.

Do you truly believe that the average Greek pensioner pocketed all those billions?
The idea is ludicrous - of course it was the rich who pocketed more money.

So why should the average Greek pensioner pay for it by even further cuts to their already tiny pensions..?

pocossin said:
I am a conservative who thinks that socialism -- rob from the rich to give to the poor -- is the root of all evil, because it justifies unlimited robbery

Pocossin, it sounds like you're an ultra-rich person, who would hate helping out the poor.
Or, if you're not a super rich person... why are you bothered?

In both cases I find your statement deeply offensive to the majority of the earth's population - who are NOT ultra rich.

pocossin · Jul 1, 2015

diamanda said:
The loan money goes straight back to the lenders

That is because they are borrowing money to pay back money, and their creditors have finally realized the folly of throwing good money after bad. The debt cannot and will not be repaid.

Do you truly believe that the average Greek pensioner pocketed all those billions?

Yes. Individuals are not getting billions, but the millions of them are getting billions. I do not know exact figures, and nobody can because Greek accounting is fraudulent.

Pocossin, it sounds like you're an ultra-rich person, who would hate helping out the poor.
Or, if you're not a super rich person... why are you bothered?

I am bothered because I happen to like the Greeks, and hate to see them suffer. They are shooting themselves in the head. Greece produces nothing of economic importance that I know about except some vegetables. They live by the tourist trade, and their current choices are sure to repel tourist. Socialism -- the belief that the important thing is sharing, not producing -- is the road to poverty. The Greeks are getting there before the rest of us.

Actually, I am lower middle class bourgeois and proud of it. I am frugal and conservative. I save and repair and grow a significant part of my food. I continue to work although I am long past retirement. For me, the grave is retirement. Yes, I get a monthly check from the government, and even more importantly, my medical bills are paid for at public expense. I feel, as you said, 'super rich' not because I have much but because I have more than I need. If the inventive Greeks were to escape the delusions of socialism, they would do as well as I.

moss elk · Jul 1, 2015

Does anyone else see the irony of Pocossin's hatred of socialism combined with the medical care he receives?

Tohpol · Jul 1, 2015

pocossin · Jul 1, 2015

Moss Elk said:
Does anyone else see the irony of Pocossin's hatred of socialism combined with the medical care he receives?

An individual in a corrupting system has no choice. Either you jump off the cliff with the rest or they push you off. The economic effect of socialized medicine is to inflate the cost of health care for anyone outside the system.

diamanda · Jul 1, 2015

Apart from the medical care self-contradiction, there's also the self-contradiction of millions of Greek indivicuals pocketing billions but now being penniless.

Pocossin suggests:

that Greece should return to austerity (which hasn't for years, and will never, solve the issue)
that Greece should return to conservatives (who were ruling for years, and created this chaos)
that Socialism favours sharing but is against producing (...??????)

Pure absurdity.

anemos · Jul 1, 2015

pocossin said:
That is because they are borrowing money to pay back money, and their creditors have finally realized the folly of throwing good money after bad. The debt cannot and will not be repaid.

Yes. Individuals are not getting billions, but the millions of them are getting billions. I do not know exact figures, and nobody can because Greek accounting is fraudulent.

I am bothered because I happen to like the Greeks, and hate to see them suffer. They are shooting themselves in the head. Greece produces nothing of economic importance that I know about except some vegetables. They live by the tourist trade, and their current choices are sure to repel tourist. Socialism -- the belief that the important thing is sharing, not producing -- is the road to poverty. The Greeks are getting there before the rest of us.

Actually, I am lower middle class bourgeois and proud of it. I am frugal and conservative. I save and repair and grow a significant part of my food. I continue to work although I am long past retirement. For me, the grave is retirement. Yes, I get a monthly check from the government, and even more importantly, my medical bills are paid for at public expense. I feel, as you said, 'super rich' not because I have much but because I have more than I need. If the inventive Greeks were to escape the delusions of socialism, they would do as well as I.

Tom,
Are you serious ? You have no idea about what is going on here.

pocossin · Jul 1, 2015

anemos said:
Tom,
Are you serious ? You have no idea about what is going on here.

That's true. I don't know what is happening on the ground because news from Greece is censored. Has panic buying emptied the shelves of grocery stores yet? I think I know where things are going. The Greeks will vote Yes. Odds makers are so certain of this that they are already paying off bets.

sooo · Jul 2, 2015

Moss Elk said:
Does anyone else see the irony of Pocossin's hatred of socialism combined with the medical care he receives?

Not really. That is, not unless someone has relied upon Welfare during the majority of their life and are just along for a free ride. But if someone has put in their share of time and productivity in the work force, they themselves have paid, many times over, for the Social Security retirement and a small % of their medical expenses, once old enough to retire from full time gainful employment or sickness. Unless 100% disabled, only Medicare Part A is prepaid. The rest of the Medicare Insurance premiums are paid for by the recipient, just as private insurance is.

We all (in the US) pay 1.45% of our earnings into FICA - Federal Insurance Contributions Act, if you're into deciphering acronyms - which go toward Medicare. Employers pay another 1.45%, bringing the total to 2.9%.

In addition, workers and employers pay for Social Security. Workers pay 6.2 percent of their earnings up to a cap, which is $113,700 a year in 2013. (The cap on taxable earnings usually rises each year with average wages.) Employers pay a matching amount for a combined contribution of 12.4 percent of earnings.

So, US workers pay approximately 15% of every pay check toward their own social security, medicare A and disability insurance. The portion matched by employers assuredly is considered as part of their compensation to their employees, and rightly so.

If one were to figure just how much this would amount to for a middle class worker, it in most cases would far exceed the amount they live long enough to receive in return, particularly if normal interest rates were added over the course of a working lifetime. If this were so, by 62 or 65, we indeed would be living in pretty tall clover. However, the "fund" for these earned "benefits" has been pillaged and plundered, with most going to those who have not earned it but have gained entitlements to it through socialistic ideology of liberal politics.

I can't speak for Greece, because as Maria pointed out to Tom, I have no (real) idea of what's going on over there. But I have a very good idea of what's going on over here.

I applied for and received my Social Security card when I was 14, and worked part time as a dishwasher in a bowling alley restaurant. I started working full time at 16, and worked hard to improve my earnings as I supported a family of four. The Social Security check I receive each month is money I've earned, and only a very small fraction of it of it at that. I'd have to live to 300 years old to receive it back. If it went instead into a retirement account, I'd be a ranch owner or enjoying retirement in my own home by a lake, fishing my retirement years instead of shoveling another rancher's horse manure.

Yes, I'm a conservative, though that does not imply greed or apathy. I'm quick to give and care generously. I just don't like having it unfairly taken for the sake of those who haven't at least tried their best to earn it, and paid their own fair share.

I agree with Tom, that Greece's economics is but the beginning of what this entire planet may soon be facing.

sooo · Jul 2, 2015

For the record, this 15% is skimmed right off the top, and this has nothing to do with income tax to the federal government to fund federal entitlements, nor state tax to fund state government entitlements, nor sales tax, which is outright double taxation on ones already paid income tax. You think these tax funded entitlements go to those of us who have paid for them? Ha, think again.

charly · Jul 2, 2015

Hi, All:

Casting the coins about greek people´s consult I've got 28.2 going to 31.

My almost literal translation:

H.28

大過
da4 guo4
GREAT EXCESS
Excessive load.

棟撓
dong4 nao2
THE ROOFBEAM SCRATCHES
All the building could fall. (Maybe speaking on the EU).

利有攸往
li4 you3 you1 wang3
PROFITABLE IF HAVING FAR TO GO
Good for going far (from Europe?).

亨
heng1
FEAST
Occasion of celebration and joy.

Advice:
Vote "NO", say not to financial vultures.

28.2

枯楊生稊。
ku1 yang2 sheng1 ti2
THE DRIED WILLOW GROWS SPROUTS.
Old life will get a new spring.

老夫得其女妻
lao3 fu1 de2 qi2 nu3 qi1
THE OLD MAN GETS HIS YOUNG WIFE.
The folk finds what he needs.

旡不利
wu2 bu4 li4
NO UNPROFITABLE.
Good indeed!

Keys:

The Old Man is the Greek People.
The Young Bride is Democracy.

(to be continued)

All the best for the Greece´s friends.

Charly

sooo · Jul 3, 2015

charly said:
Casting the coins about greek people´s consult I've got 28.2 going to 31.

An interpretation:
So the Greek crisis should not be looked at solely through the lens of economic statistics: austerity, debt levels and pensions. The underlying questions are: can Europe still be seen in Greece as an anchor for a relatively young democracy? Ahead of Sunday’s referendum, some of the yes demonstrators in Athens seem to think so. And could Greece, located on the continent’s unstable, exposed south-eastern flank, still contribute to a European project in dire need of rejuvenation, not the kind of bashing that in the end weakens everyone?

pocossin · Jul 3, 2015

pocossin said:
Yes. Individuals are not getting billions, but the millions of them are getting billions. I do not know exact figures, and nobody can because Greek accounting is fraudulent.

Here are Greek government numbers. The population of Greece is almost 11 million.

The number of Greek pensioners edged up for a third month in a row in March, reaching a total of 2.65 million as Kathimerini online reports. Greece spent a total of 6.8 billion euros on pensions in the first quarter of the year, according to the figures produced by the Ilios system overseen by the Labor Ministry. The average monthly retirement pay, including supplementary pensions, came to 941.47 euros [1,044.11 US Dollars].

http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/...ensioners-edges-up-2-65-million_10244650.html

6.8 billion euros X 4 = 27.2 billion euros a year.

sooo · Jul 3, 2015

I can hardly believe my eyes and ears, when I witness on our national TV network news, Greek leaders rolling out the welcome mat indiscriminately to immigration. On one hand it strikes me as supreme generosity, and on the other as extremely unwise. I see immigrants forced to live in crowded amps, cursing Greeks for their difficult living conditions, showing no gratitude for their life rescuing efforts to save and assist these people, desperate to escape their own oppressive governments, and who knows what terrorists come in among them? It's confusing to me. And I have to ask myself, isn't this exactly what we in the states are also doing?

At what point does a country have to say no more. We must now look after our own welfare?

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/greece-illegal-immigration-midst-crisis/

diamanda · Jul 3, 2015

"Greek leaders rolling out the welcome mat indiscriminately to immigration"

Not exactly a welcome mat, but, almost no other country wants to help.
So what's the alternative - to let them drown at sea?

And: why are all the immigrants' countries all destroyed at the same time, forcing those poor people to the closest place they can find (Europe)? Who benefits by the destruction of their countries, and at the same time by the weakening of Europe who can't cope with the problem?

Yet another weird and stinky story...

Charly: thanks for the casting! I'll answer on the 'Shared Readings' thread.

sooo · Jul 4, 2015

diamanda said:
"Greek leaders rolling out the welcome mat indiscriminately to immigration"

Not exactly a welcome mat, but, almost no other country wants to help.
So what's the alternative - to let them drown at sea?

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just relaying the live converge shown on national TV networks direct from Greece. They destroy the rafts as evidence and bring them in with warm and open arms (no artistic license taken here, being literal), and meanwhile an Afghan illegal immigrant shouts a curse at the Greek official that God should strike his mother's eyes out. A confounding thing to observe.

I never said they should let them drown, but they come because they know they will not be turned away, then protest with great hatred because they're only offered crowded and deplorable accommodations, because the country is poor. What more can they expect? My heart goes out to Greece and I admire their compassion, but so long as they continue to tolerate this ongoing illegal immigration traffic, this awful condition will not cease. They are being dragged down to the pit.

Let Charity come from all of Europe, all the world, not all dumped onto the back of a struggling Greece.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD69cB2vWOU

sooo · Jul 4, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34N-i2gjnH4

pocossin · Jul 4, 2015

sooo said:
However, the "fund" for these earned "benefits" has been pillaged and plundered, with most going to those who have not earned it but have gained entitlements to it through socialistic ideology of liberal politics. . .If it went instead into a retirement account, I'd be a ranch owner or enjoying retirement in my own home by a lake, fishing my retirement years instead of shoveling another rancher's horse manure.

Yes, you have been looted just as if your home were looted. Where the money is, there will the socialists be gathered together. In my youth my father compelled me to buy an insurance policy. In addition to a death benefit, which will go to my heirs, he told me that I would be insured against the cost of tuberculosis care. At that time this was no small matter because tuberculosis is in the family, and I was eventually infected by association with a promiscuous grandfather, but the infection was encysted by medication, and I did not need hospitalization. The yearly payment for this policy was $25 a year, but that was a hardship for me because I was earning 50 cents an hour, and so it yearly costs me 50 hours of labor. Nevertheless, I eventually paid the total costs of the policy, and it has continued to gain value. It is now worth about twenty times what I paid for it. If you paid in $100,000 to Social Security, the worth of your investment should be about 2 million.

diamanda · Jul 4, 2015

Let Charity come from all of Europe, all the world, not all dumped onto the back of a struggling Greece.

Sooo, I totally agree with you, apologies if I misunderstood you.
Thanks for the links, will definitely watch them.

pocossin said:
Where the money is, there will the socialists be gathered together

I had no idea that the socialists are the rich guys who rule all the money in the world.
I thought it was the capitalists and corporations who were the greedy money-obsessed ones.
Must have got it wrong then.

pocossin · Jul 4, 2015

diamanda said:
I had no idea that the socialists are the rich guys who rule all the money in the world. I thought it was the capitalists and corporations who were the greedy money-obsessed ones.
Must have got it wrong then.

You missed the Biblical allusion. Sooo knows that text better than I.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-wealthiest-greeks-2010-5?op=1
12 Ultra Rich Greeks Who Should Have Bailed Out Greece Themselves

Rich Greeks have the sense to move their wealth out of the grasp of predators, the real "economic vultures". In any case, were they totally stripped, it would finance the bizarre Greek pension system for less than a year. Once Greeks wanted to get to heaven. Now they want to get a pension. That works as long as the Germans pay.

diamanda · Jul 4, 2015

Rich Greeks have the sense to move their wealth out

Tomorrow Greece will get a chance to finally force those rich tax evaders to pay their due.
Fingers crossed!!

poised · Jul 5, 2015

Stocking up in Athens

Good article and photos of empty supermarket shelves in Athens today. Looks like Miami supermarkets the day before you absolutely know that a hurricane will strike:
http://news.yahoo.com/sugar-flour-r...5cXVuBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM2BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

anemos · Jul 5, 2015

poised said:
Good article and photos of empty supermarket shelves in Athens today. Looks like Miami supermarkets the day before you absolutely know that a hurricane will strike:
http://news.yahoo.com/sugar-flour-r...5cXVuBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM2BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

I was in two supermarkets those Saturday and the selves were full and as far as i know the same is true for the whole country. Yes, some people have bought some food but the propaganda we experience here for a week, is something that only in movies I have seen that before.

anemos · Jul 5, 2015

pocossin said:
Rich Greeks have the sense to move their wealth out of the grasp of predators, the real "economic vultures". In any case, were they totally stripped, it would finance the bizarre Greek pension system for less than a year. Once Greeks wanted to get to heaven. Now they want to get a pension. That works as long as the Germans pay.

nonsense. You are allowed to have an opinion but FYI,your sources are at least naive. The debt is a very profitable bussiness for the creditors and yes, I pay 47% of my wage for health insurance and used to pay 45% in taxes and I refuse to hear your nonsenses and silly generalization

I hope you think again what you said and delete your comments. They offend Noone but you.

Thank you.

pocossin · Jul 5, 2015

anemos said:
I pay 47% of my wage for health insurance and used to pay 45% in taxes and I refuse to hear your nonsenses and silly generalization

Simply add me to your Ignore List. I think you once reproved me for not knowing what was happening in Greece. Now, thanks to The New York Times and Reuters, I do know, and I have nothing to retract or apologize for.

sooo · Jul 5, 2015

That's the problem with thinking too strictly along party lines: one becomes of one mind with the party, whether it claims to be conservative and capitalist or liberal and socialist. Corruption exists across party lines, and killing the patient is no way to cure the disease. As the saying goes: follow the money, and you find the corruption. I don't mean honest money that is earned, regardless of personal political persuasion, but those in high places: bankers, politicians, lobbyists from both parties.

There's a difference between those who have built honest businesses and provide the majority of jobs to the middle class, and pay the great percentage of taxes as well, and those who line their pockets from special interest lobbyists and secret banking deals, and at that level, party is strictly a means to personal agendas, which is power and unearned riches. Does anyone really believe liberal politicians covet less personal money and power than conservative politicians? If you follow the money, politicians and those who offer and receive favors is where that trail leads, across party lines. That kind of thinking is what trickles down, first to big business, then to smaller businesses, and finally to those who just give up menial jobs for collecting government handouts. That stinkin' thinkin' begins at the top and falls to the bottom. That's for all countries, all peoples, all parties.

Tohpol · Jul 6, 2015

“The rules of big business: Get a monopoly; let society work for you. So long as we see all international revolutionaries and all international capitalists as implacable enemies of one another, then we miss a crucial point....a partnership between international monopoly capitalism and international revolutionary socialism is for their mutual benefit."

Frederick C. Howe, Confessions of a Monopolist (1906)

Help Greece please!

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