I want to thank first the admin for having me accepted on the forum, I greatly appreciate it!

From the spiritual point of view, I’ve heard some people talk about ascended masters, subtle spirits, or entities, which the I Ching provides with a way by which the are able to talk to us, I’ve even heard some others refer to the I Ching as an actual concrete entity.

I like Carl Jung’s hypothesis that the hexagram resulting from the casting of the coins or the sticks is characteristic of the moment and therefore it tell us something about the moment, from a synchronistic point of view.

What are some of your ideas or experiences regarding the two above points of view?

Best,
tarkus

Tarkus said:

I want to thank first the admin for having me accepted on the forum, I greatly appreciate it!

From the spiritual point of view, I’ve heard some people talk about ascended masters, subtle spirits, or entities, which the I Ching provides with a way by which the are able to talk to us, I’ve even heard some others refer to the I Ching as an actual concrete entity.

I like Carl Jung’s hypothesis that the hexagram resulting from the casting of the coins or the sticks is characteristic of the moment and therefore it tell us something about the moment, from a synchronistic point of view.

What are some of your ideas or experiences regarding the two above points of view?

Best,
tarkus

Click to expand...

I am generally a little more into the spiritual aspects of the I Ching than most people. I consider it first and foremost a spiritual guide which helps us to see ourselves. I don't just believe, I know, beyond any doubt, that there is a spiritual guidance taking place when we consult the I Ching. It is NOT just an automatic response system. I am the only person I have ever known to use that terminology, but that fits the picture precisely. Therefore, the quality of the answers we get depends to a large degree, on our own spiritual advancement and practice. And we MUST have superior motives for consulting the I Ching. It is not just a book but an awareness. When we consult the I Ching it draws down or concretizes certain quantum physics into material physics, and it does so in a way that is consistent with the time of the question, (which is not by accident, though we know it not) and therefore, the question should not be asked a second time, because we can interfere with the quantum mechanics in question.

I think this is as far as I should take it at this point in time. I know there are some who disagree with this. That is okay, they will find out in time.

gene said:

I am generally a little more into the spiritual aspects of the I Ching than most people. I consider it first and foremost a spiritual guide which helps us to see ourselves. I don't just believe, I know, beyond any doubt, that there is a spiritual guidance taking place when we consult the I Ching.

Click to expand...

My feeling toward the I Ching is somehow along these lines too. I'm just very intrigued over who are we asking to, could we say do yo consider it a guiding spirit?

Someone asked a similar question recently here where you may see various views

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?22262-Just-what-is-the-I-Ching&highlight=jung

My view is Yi is an Oracle and Oracles are openings like wells. Through these openings one can draw on sustenance, wisdom and guidance. Some wells are clear and the water is pure, other wells less so. My sense is the I Ching is very much a good working well who's water gets more and more accessible thanks to the efforts and generosity of dedicated scholars and all those who sincerely engage with it.

I had the idea Jung, in his Foreword to Wilhelm's book, had written he had received 48 when asking Yi about itself. Scanning through my ragged copy it looks like it wasn't 48 but 50 .....but anyway to my mind asking the I Ching is like approaching an opening such as a well and of course there may be many occasions where the bucket leaks or the rope breaks !

But what is this opening an opening to exactly ? Everyone has their own ideas. My current conceptualisation of it is that it is an opening to a greater intelligence which can seem to be both within and outside of us, a universal intelligence if you like and yet even though universal appears to have it's own Oracular character. Can oracles have characters ? I tend to think so. For me consulting the Tarot feels absolutely nothing like consulting the I Ching and it's nothing like consulting with angel cards or anything like that. Most who have consulted for some time get a sense of this character as being both sharp with an acerbic humour but also deeply compassionate, endlessly patient and also playful. I even think we can come to love the character of the I Ching. I think I do and those who have a different view would think that silly but love is binding and I do find once a person connects with the I Ching they stay bound up with it in one way or another and if that isn't something to do with love I don't know what is. For this reason I hypothesise our answers actually come from love.

Tarkus said:

I’ve heard some people talk about ascended masters

Click to expand...

Me too. My suggestion is, be careful around people who talk about themselves as ascended masters. Case in point:

gene said:

I know there are some who disagree with this. That is okay, they will find out in time.

Click to expand...

And my reaction whenever someone tells me how we all "MUST" use the Yijing is to run.

Anyhow if you want to know who you're speaking to, why not ask the oracle itself?

(Just popped in to read Trojina's thoughts on this; she usually has thought-provoking things to say. Sorry, carry on.)

Trojina said:

Someone asked a similar question recently here where you may see various views

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?22262-Just-what-is-the-I-Ching&highlight=jung

My view is Yi is an Oracle and Oracles are openings like wells. Through these openings one can draw on sustenance, wisdom and guidance. Some wells are clear and the water is pure, other wells less so. My sense is the I Ching is very much a good working well who's water gets more and more accessible thanks to the efforts and generosity of dedicated scholars and all those who sincerely engage with it.

I had the idea Jung, in his Foreword to Wilhelm's book, had written he had received 48 when asking Yi about itself. Scanning through my ragged copy it looks like it wasn't 48 but 50 .....but anyway to my mind asking the I Ching is like approaching an opening such as a well and of course there may be many occasions where the bucket leaks or the rope breaks !

But what is this opening an opening to exactly ? Everyone has their own ideas. My current conceptualisation of it is that it is an opening to a greater intelligence which can seem to be both within and outside of us, a universal intelligence if you like and yet even though universal appears to have it's own Oracular character. Can oracles have characters ? I tend to think so. For me consulting the Tarot feels absolutely nothing like consulting the I Ching and it's nothing like consulting with angel cards or anything like that. Most who have consulted for some time get a sense of this character as being both sharp with an acerbic humour but also deeply compassionate, endlessly patient and also playful. I even think we can come to love the character of the I Ching. I think I do and those who have a different view would think that silly but love is binding and I do find once a person connects with the I Ching they stay bound up with it in one way or another and if that isn't something to do with love I don't know what is. For this reason I hypothesise our answers actually come from love.

Click to expand...

In every chapter, in every line, the I Ching on one level is talking about its relationship to us. So on one level, when hexagram 47 says, "When one has something to say, it is not believed." In many ways, when we consult the I Ching, its word are not believed. At the very least they are not received. Hexagram 48 improves things somewhat, in the sense that we have a clear well in which water, (sustenance, the words of the I Ching) can be received. That is at least if the rope goes far enough down, (we can get to the depths of the meaning) or the jug doesn't break (we start to understand but get sidetracked, or lose our concentration, or just cannot perceive the meaning.) In hexagram 47 the water sinks into the depths of the earth, so we cannot so easily reach it. Our lives seem dry and without meaning. We are spiritually bankrupt. But for those who can find the means to get deep enough, the "inner" meaning starts to become more clear. We have to have a vehicle, so to speak, (a jug) to bring the water up. If we cannot, we remain in the wilderness as in hexagram 47 line 1. We may or may not be depressed, but either way, life seems meaningless. We have to accept the I Ching as a guest, and honor it, realizing that in our present state we cannot fully understand it, but we can increase our understanding, (the rope gets longer) and we can follow in the steps at the level we do understand it. When we attain a greater understanding of the I Ching, we transform our lives. (hexagram 49 and 50) Transforming our lives leads to new understandings, (hexagram 50) and when we have new understandings we are "shocked" into a new level of being, (hexagram 51) Enough for now.

When you consult, it comes down to you, the Yi, and the rest of the universe. It is tempting to think of the Yi as some sort of interface between you and the universe; but since you and the Yi are both part of the universe, and the universe is all one piece, then you are the universe, the universe is the Yi, the Yi is you, etc. Thinking about this is like chasing one’s tail, so it’s probably best not to do it too much.

Having said that, I personify the Yi as a wise, benevolent mentor. A sage. One who is happy to answer questions but who deserves to be addressed with respect and dignity. I do not believe that this is any more than a mental construct on my part, but it seems useful. There may be other ways to do it. I recently asked a question of the Tarot as if addressed to my spirit guides (I have two) and interpreted the answer in that light, and it was rather inspiring.

So I guess my answer to your your question is that what you are doing when you consult is trying to connect yourself to the rest of the universe; getting information this way is how I would define an oracle. The “whom” that you are addressing is kind of up to you.

—Russell

p.s. Me gusta mucho el álbum Tarkus; pero mi favorito es Trilogy.

Personally, I think the Yi is a kind of trans-dimensional "circuit board" which allows a connection to your Higher Self. It's a conduit to that end. And perhaps the Higher Self is just a "separate" part of the Universal Intelligence/Spirit. Which is why it's perfectly tailored to each and every consciousness with all the humour and knowledge that comes with it.

Over the years I have come to no longer believe in the existence of the supernatural, and the Spirits referred to in the Lun Yu, the Yi Jing, etc., are included in that. Yes, I venerate my ancestors, but I don't think of them as having a sentient existence before or after death. My concept of eternal life is the eternity of the cosmos as a whole, and we are all part of that system.

This extract from my upcoming book Zhou Yi Dao, Living the Yi Jing, gives my opinion on this and related questions:

On the Random Nature of the Yi Jing

Someone asked: Isn’t it better to use the coins or stalks rather than generate a hexagram from a computer?

The key to any answer from the Yi does not lie in the figure received, thus the way that figure originates is of no importance. The result is random. It cannot predict the future. But we can. Our conscious mind floats over a great pool of unbiased data. We wander among the stacks of this library of Babel when we dream. We pull a page from it when we divine. Sometimes the reading seems incredibly apt. Sometimes it is obscure. But we can always find some seed of the situation described in it and use that to guide us along our Dao. The Yi was created by practical people, people who used it to make life and death decisions for themselves and their subjects. They used the shells and stalks, their descendants use the coins and the computers. But their wisdom and their humanity still shows through the texts. And our wisdom and humanity shows through them as well, when we clear our minds and accept the reading without the bias of willfulness and wishful thinking. We are on the verge of the age of the Singularity, a time when we will indeed unite with the 'soul of the machine'. But it will always be a human soul, because that is where it was born. Just so with the texts of the Yi. They were born in the minds of ancient diviners in China. They are full of humanity, even though I have no doubt that millions of light years from there are beings asking a very similar question about their 'Yi'. The words, the order of the hexagrams, the very concepts of their reality, would all be unrecognizable to human beings. And yet we have an affinity with those alien minds when we ponder the figures of the Yi. If we are entangled with such minds, is it so very 'alien' to use the numbers of our digital servants to create a hexagram figure?

cjgait said:

We are on the verge of the age of the Singularity, a time when we will indeed unite with the 'soul of the machine'.

Click to expand...

Is that a glimpse into your transhumanist belief?

topal said:

Is that a glimpse into your transhumanist belief?

Click to expand...

Well, not so much a belief as an educated guess on how things will go.

If you want to speak to your "higher self" or your "guardian angels" or your next door neighbor's dog the I Ching will give you meaningful responses. I used it to communicate with loved ones who have passed on and also with my dead car battery. And I've gotten accurate predictions when I've asked about the future, although those answers have led me to believe the future is not set in stone - that the I Ching can point out the direction one is heading in but sometimes one then has choices.

deflatormouse said:

Me too. My suggestion is, be careful around people who talk about themselves as ascended masters. Case in point:



And my reaction whenever someone tells me how we all "MUST" use the Yijing is to run.

Anyhow if you want to know who you're speaking to, why not ask the oracle itself?

(Just popped in to read Trojina's thoughts on this; she usually has thought-provoking things to say. Sorry, carry on.)

Click to expand...

This kind of reminds me of why I don't post here a lot. Not that I am mad at anyone. Nobody here is claiming enlightenment. I know what I know, others know what they know. It is just a statement. In certain areas I have a considerable amount of knowledge but I wouldn't come here if I didn't learn from others too. I am not telling anybody they MUST read the I Ching a certain way. I just know what I know. This is not meant to come across as offensive, just to clear the air. As far as asking the I Ching itself, I do that on a regular basis, and this is where my knowledge and expertise comes from. Not that I am enlightened.

That being said, I am just making a statement, not forcing my ideas on anyone. In every line in the I Ching, on one level the I Ching is talking about itself. We do well to hear its counsel. I get what I get out of it and others get what they get out of it. I have specific reasons for using the I Ching, and others do the same, their reasons are not necessarily what mine are. I will say this too, when people post on here, I usually know right away what level of expertise they have in a given area and how mature they are. That is not meant to be egotistical, it just is what it is.

In hexagram 47, the judgment says, "When one has something to say, it is not believed." And the reason for this is that until we reach a certain amount of maturity and spiritual development, we will not see what is there. But that is okay, I don't see everything, what I see I use, what I don't will come at a later point.

Thank you all for your insightful answers, I just recently started to get into the I Ching with Stephen Karscher's guide to the I Ching and now I have an old copy of Wilhelm's translation which I'm exploring right now. Interestingly, my first contact with the Yi was years ago when I found on a garage sale a copy of John Blofeld's translation, which I bought, but which mysteriously disappeared in my house from one day to another. I can even recall that Blofeld on his preface to the book said that something sort of similar happened to him with the book. I could interpret this in that perhaps I wasn't ready for the book.

Trojina said:

Someone asked a similar question recently here where you may see various views

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?22262-Just-what-is-the-I-Ching&highlight=jung

For me consulting the Tarot feels absolutely nothing like consulting the I Ching and it's nothing like consulting with angel cards or anything like that. Most who have consulted for some time get a sense of this character as being both sharp with an acerbic humour but also deeply compassionate, endlessly patient and also playful.

Click to expand...

Could you please describe a bit the experience of consulting the Tarot (or some practice) compared with the I Ching?

Best,
tarkus

One comparison about the two methods:

Usually two people are involved when consulting tarot cards, the questioner and the reader. The pictures on the cards make it easy for 2 people to communicate, even when one of them is very new to the cards. However, the cards are not always easy to read for oneself. Too easy to read into the cards what you are hoping or fearing..
The I Ching on the other hand, is more single person user friendly. The blunt rulings are difficult to deny and often only understandable when the questioner is being totally honest with himself.

Could you please describe a bit the experience of consulting the Tarot (or some practice) compared with the I Ching?

Best,
tarkus

Click to expand...

You were asking for our personal thoughts about 'who' we are consulting when we consult Yi so what I meant was I get a sense of connection to the I Ching when I consult which does not occur for me with Tarot. I wrote of oracles being openings. Well my personal view is the opening that is the I Ching is more true, more present than Tarot and such which I find easily suggestible, more open to deception...well certainly more open to self deception as Rosada mentioned. When consulting Tarot cards I have no sense of presence, of being to connect with, which I do with the I Ching. That's just my feeling on it though, I'm not stating it as a fact because it cannot be a fact...but you asked for our personal thoughts.

Trojina said:

Most who have consulted for some time get a sense of this character as being both sharp with an acerbic humour but also deeply compassionate, endlessly patient and also playful. I even think we can come to love the character of the I Ching. .

Click to expand...

Some years ago I had a few months of being able to connect very strongly, very intensely, with 'someone' that I considered to be my guide. Then he went away and left me to it. Psychotic episode? Possibly, but there were no other symptoms present! Anyway, my guide was precisely as described here - sharp, witty, compassionate, endlessly patient. I transcribed a lot of our communications.

Anyway, now that I don't seem to be able to get him 'on the line', I use the I Ching. Oh and I loved him, too. Maybe that's why he went away.

FWIW I asked the Yi once: 'who are you?' and got 51 uc

Trojina said:

You were asking for our personal thoughts about 'who' we are consulting when we consult Yi so what I meant was I get a sense of connection to the I Ching when I consult which does not occur for me with Tarot. I wrote of oracles being openings. Well my personal view is the opening that is the I Ching is more true, more present than Tarot and such which I find easily suggestible, more open to deception...well certainly more open to self deception as Rosada mentioned. When consulting Tarot cards I have no sense of presence, of being to connect with, which I do with the I Ching. That's just my feeling on it though, I'm not stating it as a fact because it cannot be a fact...but you asked for our personal thoughts.

Click to expand...

I also spent many years learning tarot and also divination with playing cards. Put simply, they're not as wise as the I Ching, they are more mundane, not as spiritual. That's my assessment anyway.

Well, reading cards would be like reading the Yi purely based on the visual hexagrams and no written lines - which is surely how it developed initially. The complex written content of the Yi is what sets it apart, in my view... there is nothing comparable in terms of writings for any of the other divinatory systems. Not that writing necessarily trumps intuition but there's wisdom AND intuition in them there lines...

The written lines are themselves poetry, appealing to a different level of wisdom and understanding - more than could ever be achieved by a simple 'cookbook' interpretation.