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Best I Ching book to study for first principles?

blissdude

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Hello, new to the forum!

I'm looking for a text that doesn't so much hold the reader's hand with regards to asking a question then interpreting the given text of a hexagram or moving line, but rather, that is a study of the basic structure of the hexagrams, the thinking behind it - i.e. from first principles, that is.

For example I found this http://www.iching123.com/index.htm which looks promising, but need something in book format.

It seems to me that a firm grasp of the positioning of the lines, and change from one state to another, would remove the need to depend too much on given words in texts.

In people's experience, which would be the best book to go for?
 

Liselle

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I think Huang and Wilhelm both talk about line positions and "correctness" (whatever that is), and how lines interact with each other.

For example, here's what Huang says about 10.2 -

"The second line is a yang element in the central place of the lower gua. Its character is strong; its temper moderate. It does not correspond to the yang element at the fifth place, since they are both yang. The image of a recluse illustrates the situation here. He walks in hte central path with a pure heart and ins content and happy."

I have no idea what any of that means, or even if it's what you mean - ?
 

blissdude

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I think Huang and Wilhelm both talk about line positions and "correctness" (whatever that is), and how lines interact with each other.

For example, here's what Huang says about 10.2 -

"The second line is a yang element in the central place of the lower gua. Its character is strong; its temper moderate. It does not correspond to the yang element at the fifth place, since they are both yang. The image of a recluse illustrates the situation here. He walks in hte central path with a pure heart and ins content and happy."

I have no idea what any of that means, or even if it's what you mean - ?

Is is that kind of thing I'm looking for. I want to understand the suitability of lines and their interaction, their direction etc. I'd like to understand if there is a repeatedly tangible form that comes even through six consecutive tossing of coins/splitting of yarrow stick.

For example, in Tarot spreads, of which there are many, different concepts are attributed to different arrangements, and tends to be very variable. In the I Ching, the positioning never changes, I'd like to understand the hexagram form better...

Not sure if I'm making sense... I am to myself!!
 

bradford

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The dimensions you may be speaking of, like yin and yang in even and odd or correct and incorrect positions, or hexagram rulers, or centrality, or correspondence and holding together, or nuclear trigrams, are NOT first principles of the Yijing. They were derived much later than the original book, in the Han Dynasty, and some were incorporated into the Ten Wings. Most people don't know, or refuse to accept, that even Yin and Yang were later additions. These were attempts to understand the original, but they succeed less than half of the time. The nuclear trigrams were a bit older, but not nuclear hexagrams. There is no evidence that any of these structural principles were on the minds of the earliest authors or informed the creation of the text. The really old dimensions are fewer in number - to some extent inverse and opposite hexagrams, upper and lower trigrams, and the six line positions, plus certain associations between a changing line and the two hexagrams it hovers between. Hexagram shape or image was often a factor.
Per Severus' comment, two of my books are still for sale, but more importantly, all four are still free downloads at the website below. The Dimensions chapter in my Volume 2 talks about all of these, but this is more challenging reading than Volume 1.
 
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angelatlantis14

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To me, the true key to understanding the I Ching and receiving answers to your questions is really your willingness to work on the answers. As Bradford already summarized, a lot of the elements used in interpreting - "yin and yang in even and odd or correct and incorrect positions, or hexagram rulers, or centrality, or correspondence and holding together, or nuclear trigrams" are actually later-day additions or attempts at understanding.
Personally I believe, if you get a decent translation and just focus on the judgment and line texts, you should be fine with regards to "first principles" if this is what you require.
To my mind, this is not so much important, but rather what you personally make out of these words - how do they strike you, what happens when you really get into them and let them develop in your soul and mind? What are the answers you are getting?
Sometimes to me, the interpretations (like for example Wilhelms) are useful and help me on towards undertstanding. Sometimes, they do not. I think you need to make that discernment yourself and get the correct answer for you and your situation. Then it does not matter so much what book you are using...
I suspect that often additional interpretations are sought out when a) the original answer is not immediately understandable to the querent or b) the answer is not what the querent likes :) (I have been doing both...)
So really to me the best interpretation tool is your own mind!

best wishes

maui
 

tuckchang

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The heavens and earth had existed for a long time before people named them. Some people call them heaven and earth; some people call them 天tian地di.

In the Zhou Yi, there exists the unbroken and broken line. In the world, there exists day (brightness) and night (darkness), rigidity (or strength) and softness (or weakness), the masculine and feminine, etc. They can be called 陽yang and 陰Yin, or X and Y.

Yang and Yin are two opposites of one subject like two ends of one cord, i.e. two extremities. The middle position of the trigram offers them an opportune to act moderately.

The unbroken line has one (odd) line stroke, and the broken line has two (even) line strokes. In a hexagram, positions 1, 2 and 3 are seen as the odd position, and positions 2, 4 and 6 are the even position.

And so on ………….

Zhou Yi exists in a form of symbol and text as one integral part. I believe that the symbol was invented much earlier, like the development of human civilization, and the text was derived from it.

When divining, people can be enlightened simply by the available text. While paraphrasing what the text tells and why, it is essential, I believe, to involve the symbol.

Tuck
www.iching123.com
 

gene

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I think Huang and Wilhelm both talk about line positions and "correctness" (whatever that is), and how lines interact with each other.

For example, here's what Huang says about 10.2 -

"The second line is a yang element in the central place of the lower gua. Its character is strong; its temper moderate. It does not correspond to the yang element at the fifth place, since they are both yang. The image of a recluse illustrates the situation here. He walks in hte central path with a pure heart and ins content and happy."

I have no idea what any of that means, or even if it's what you mean - ?

The three books, Wilhelm, Huang, and Ni Hua Ching work together for a good analysis of the lines. However, no matter what, it ultimately boils down to a certain type of intuition, which can best be developed after a lot of study is done.
 

russell

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If you want to get down to the original nuts and bolts, start with Zhouyi by Richard Rutt. Then The Composition of the Zhouyi by Edward Louis Shaughnessy (http://dissexpress.umi.com/dxweb/search.html, order number 8320774). There are those on this forum who don’t agree, but . . . it takes all kinds to make a world.

The hexagram lines were originally determined by numeric digits, and the solid and broken lines came from odd and even numbers, which in my opinion have archetypal masculine and feminine qualities to them. And since the concepts of yin and yang are as old as the oracle bones, it is not a great leap to connect them with the numbers and lines, even if it was not formalized until later. The seed of the idea was there. The same goes for binary numbers. Trigrams, ruling lines, associations with family members, and that kind of thing all came later and I personally don’t pay any attention to them. But some people do.

—Russell
 
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deflatormouse

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I would second Russell's recommendations, if not necessarily as starting points.
In the former, Rutt outlines his skeptcism in a section called 'The Fascination of Zhouyi.'
On the subject of binary numbers, he has this to say, and I think it's an important counterpoint to Russell's post above: "Since numbers to the power of two, together with multiple symmetries, turn up everywhere in mathematical and physical structures, Chinese scholars found no difficulty in applying the 64 hexagrams to everything from the structure of crystals to the solar system." He goes on to dismiss "biological" or reproductive interpretations of the mathematics by a similar logic: "The natural world is indeed susceptible to complex mathematical patterning," citing as his example the Fibonaci sequence (see also: Wolfram - A New Kind of Science).

In his ubiquitous explanation of Shuogua, Richard Wilhelm (translated by Cary Baynes) suggests explicitly that the Doctrine of the Mean is self-evident in the line figures. And although he cites neither, his explanation of the Yijing's "fundamental principles" derives much more clearly from the Atomists and Epicurus than ancient China: "The fundamental principles of the world are heaven and earth, spirit and matter."

And this thread, the objective of its original query and the various responses, as well as the 'modernist' approach to Yixue reflect our cultural obsession with atom splitting. Please laugh! My intention is not to attack anyone, as I see this as fairly unproblematic, or at least unavoidable. It's not wrong; it's just us.

Simply put, I am personally extremely wary of any interpretation of the Yijing's "first principles": Whose principles are they, exactly? I don't think there is really any way of completely disregarding or bypassing our own deeply ingrained cultural biases here, and would you want to live according to the same principles as the text's authors anyhow? To start off with, don't assume that it's a book of philosophy. It may be closer to 'Tiffany's Table Manners for Teenagers' in certain ways.

Or the Iliad. There is one book on the Yijing that has influenced my own understanding more than any other - The Mandate of Heaven by S.J. Marshall. Although he might wince at the Iliad comparison. His core theories have been contested and can be regarded as hypothetical if you wish. Most of the discussion on his book concerns whether or not hexagram 55 contains a solar eclipse record. I feel this is a great pity, as he succeds more than anyone else I have read in reconciling the tratitional "history" of the book in China with contemporary, Western expectations of "authenticity". His approach points to a collusion between history, mythology and divination that has transformed the way I work with the book.
 
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deflatormouse

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...On second thought, this is probably as good a starting point as any: Harmen Mesker's translation notes on hexagram 1 (http://yjcn.nl). Specifically, the part where he says, "Honestly, I don’t know how to translate the name of hexagram 1, Qian 乾. From the context in the third line (see below) I can deduce that it is a verb. A detailed analysis of the character shows that it is connected to the image of a banner, which is the focus in a town or centre. That is why I chose the meaning of ‘(to) focus’ but I am well aware that this is more interpretation than translation."

If Harmen doesn't know how to translate it, I very much doubt that anyone really does. Harmen is probably one of the most accomplished contemporary sinologists, and quite possibly the most accomplished contemporary sinologist who is also a diviner. His statement above is in my opinion one of the most honest and revealing things anyone has written on the Yijing, and it's discouraging and empowering all at the same time.

If Harmen Mesker does not know how to translate not just any character but the title of hexagram one, the first word in the book, then I would suggest that a "first principle of the Yijing", or at least one very helpful thing to keep in mind could be that, actually, nobody is all that sure what it means.
 
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gene

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I think Huang and Wilhelm both talk about line positions and "correctness" (whatever that is), and how lines interact with each other.

For example, here's what Huang says about 10.2 -

"The second line is a yang element in the central place of the lower gua. Its character is strong; its temper moderate. It does not correspond to the yang element at the fifth place, since they are both yang. The image of a recluse illustrates the situation here. He walks in hte central path with a pure heart and ins content and happy."

I have no idea what any of that means, or even if it's what you mean - ?

There are a number of ways to consult the I Ching; some, like the sugar plum method, allow for only one line changing, and the terms of interpretation are different. In the coin toss or yarrow method, it is possible to get more than one changing line, and therefore interpretation takes on a different standard. And the laws of correspondence, depending on the type of question, can be significant in the reading. When two or more lines are changing, the lines can refer more to people involved than to an actual divination of events. That comes in interpreting the interaction.

When only one line is changing, often the laws of correspondence are delineated in the line itself. In hexagram ten, line two, the person is depicted as a hermit because he or she has no relationship with the fifth line. The line goes its own way, therefore, it is highly unlikely that other people are involved. It is a combination of the meaning of the line with its correspondences, and the meaning of the hexagram overall that gives the ultimate picture.
 
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maggie may

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or at least one very helpful thing to keep in mind could be that, actually, nobody is all that sure what it means

Its all in the question. Whatever it means must in some way answer the question or the concern. All the interpretations and quotes and research and connections are pretty meaningless if the question is not answered. Sounds simple enough. I find lately that I ask a question and then sit with the images for quite awhile, days, before attempting to write any answer. Its like I am just absorbing and cooking the ingredients. Often the images are just a way of looking at the situation from a different perspective, a widening view. Its not like I even get a specific answer to my question but more just an approach, an idea, an image to hold.
 

gene

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Its all in the question. Whatever it means must in some way answer the question or the concern. All the interpretations and quotes and research and connections are pretty meaningless if the question is not answered. Sounds simple enough. I find lately that I ask a question and then sit with the images for quite awhile, days, before attempting to write any answer. Its like I am just absorbing and cooking the ingredients. Often the images are just a way of looking at the situation from a different perspective, a widening view. Its not like I even get a specific answer to my question but more just an approach, an idea, an image to hold.

You are right Maggie May. It all depends on context, the type of question, etc. etc. etc. Often the I Ching does not specifically answer our question, but throws it back on us to look at, and look at the material in order to come to our own conclusions. And how the lines interact depends a lot on who is involved, how they interact. And so on and so forth.

Too often we think of the I Ching as an automatic response system and it is not. It has its own personality and can give us more of what we need than what we want.
 

tuckchang

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According to the image, hexagram Qian is constructed by six Yang (i.e. strong / masculine) lines, developing from the bottom straight forward to the top.
According to the sequence, it is the first hexagram, and hexagram Kun follows it stepping on the stage of Zhou Yi.
According to Shuowen Jiezi, 乾 (Qian or Chien) means growing upward. It is composed of 乙 (the character root) and 倝 (its pronunciation). depicts the brilliant sunlight at sunrise. depicts a plant in spring struggling to grow.

These give me a picture of:
1) It is a founder (as it starts Zhou Yi) and leader (as it is the first hexagram). This also suggests): a) masculinity occupies the predominant position in Zhou Yi, and b) Kun is an assistant and adherent.
2) The strong line goes upward, like the plant struggling to grow, and like a gentleman (or a nobleman) acting strongly and untiringly to get development.

Therefore its text says: Qian; (it possesses) origination (i.e. a great new beginning full of creative power), smooth progress (like its Yang line rising from the bottom to the top), advantage (or appropriateness, i.e. being appropriate for all concerned like a founder and leader, which creates benefit), and persistence (i.e. acting strongly and untiringly in maintaining what has been achieved and righteously carrying on toward what is intended).

Therefore its lines are expressed in a way of how a gentleman (or a nobleman) should act to realize his aspirations from stage to stage and become a leader. The changing Qian shows how all the leaders live together in peace eventually.

Therefore Qian is denoted as heaven (as in Chinese culture, in addition to the heavens and celestial bodies, Heaven denotes the supreme power that creates and dominates the world), the head, the king, the father, etc. and is characterized as 健jian (acting strongly and untiringly, i.e. persevering) in Shuo Gua Zhuan.

Tuck Chang
www.iching123.com
 
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deflatormouse

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According to the sequence, it is the first hexagram, and hexagram Kun follows it stepping on the stage of Zhou Yi.
That may not be the oldest sequence- in the Mawangdui Zhouyi, which provides the earliest physical evidence for the sequence of the hexagrams, they are arranged in a different order, grouped according to the upper three lines, and not in pairs as in the King Wen sequence. In that manuscript, it's still the first hexagram, but followed by 12. Both have variant titles. The title of hexagram 1 is given as 健.

It is composed of 乙 (the character root) and 倝 (its pronunciation).
It may not be, though.

Therefore its text says: Qian; (it possesses) origination (i.e. a great new beginning full of creative power)
This is relying too heavily on context; I would agree that context can provide substantial clues to the meaning of a word, but that approach has its limitations as well, and is not exactly translation in my opinion.

Therefore its lines are expressed in a way of how a gentleman (or a nobleman) should act to realize his aspirations from stage to stage and become a leader. The changing Qian shows how all the leaders live together in peace eventually.

This assuming that Zhouyi was always a book of philosophy; I very much doubt it. There's a lot of discourse on this in a number of the works already cited in this thread.

Therefore Qian is denoted as heaven (as in Chinese culture, in addition to the heavens and celestial bodies, Heaven denotes the supreme power that creates and dominates the world[the head, the king, the father, etc. and is characterized as 健jian (acting strongly and untiringly, i.e. persevering) in Shuo Gua Zhuan

Very interesting!
Keep in mind that East Central Asia in the Bronze Age wasn't yet "China", and the culture of its heterogeneous inhabitants wasn't yet "Chinese". There was no Laozi, there was no Confucius, and to suggest that their ideas are self-evident in the Zhouyi, as Wang Bi and others have, is the precise equivalent of Wilhelm citing the Doctrine of the Mean and Atomist philosophy in his explanation of Shuogua.
 
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deflatormouse

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"Introducing Metrocard:
Big city. Fast card. Fare deal."

Someone reading this 5,000 years from now might have an idea what it means, sure.
And hey might reasonably (but erroneously) deduce from the conext that "fare" was a phonetic loan for "fair" :D
They probably wouldn't be able to figure out exactly what a MetroCard is, especially if this word does not survive in any other literature. With a little effort, they could probably get 'city + card', and they might even figure out that it's a proper name or brand. They might find the ruins of our "subway" and have an idea how we got around. But the very specific meaning of 'Metrocard', that's it's a train ticket, a disposable debit card used to pay multiple admissions to the city's mass transit system??? :confused::brickwall::eek:uch:
 
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tuckchang

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Very interesting! It seems that the argument started some two thousands years ago. There do exist several different forms of sequence (before or after). Some is related to the geometric figure, and some is made according to divination method. Wen Wang sequence does have its philosophy if the hexagram name and texts are involved. I have tried to make some explanation here.

Shuowen Jiezi is regarded as a dictionary for the original meaning of Chinese character, and it does help me understand the ancient text and make it clear.
I interpret the text not only according to the context but also from holistic view of a hexagram (i.e. reading hexagram text and line texts together). Additionally I involve the sequence, the relative hexagram and the image, as well as line behavior and change.
You might know that a single Chinese character might have very broad meaning. 乾 can be also pronounced gan and translated as dry, adopted (parents or child), etc. Very strange, up ton now I haven’t seen that any people translate hexagram 1 as a dry hexagram.

Zhou Yi is seen as a book of divination, but this doesn’t mean that it can’t have philosophy, or Tao which Chinese usually call. Yi Jing (Zhouyi paraphrased according to Ten Wings, especially Tuan Zhuan (the judgment) and Xiang Zhuan (the image)) indeed is seen as Confucian philosophy of life.

It is amazing that you know so much of China. For your understanding, when we say traditional Chinese culture, we usually refer to the culture originated from Zhongyuan.

Tuck Chang
www.iching123.com
 
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butterfly spider

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I have several books on the I Ching, and have had very many more over the past 40 years. My 1975 Wilhelm is my default, although I am using this less and les. Whilst I can get the gist of some of the notes and scholarly writings in various books, much of it eludes me. I use this site, Bradford for his brilliant use of simple language, and the pictures themselves, which I display on my wall - at the moment it is hexagram 23.

This reminds me of an Uncle who was a joiner - a brilliant joiner who had worked on ships as an apprentice and who had spent years learning his craft until he eventually ran a bespoke workshop providing internal joinery to extremely important clients. He interviewed people to work for him - graduates, well-read people, who looked superb on paper to ex-prisoners who needed work on release. Many had read all the books, done the exams, had good background knowledge in their chosen areas. My Uncle would say that absolutely none of this mattered one bit if when asked to make some complicated join, or solve a problem, they had not the slightest idea of what to do on the floor.....He said that some had no feel for the wood, no feel for the way it felt between the hands, no concept of how beautiful the process of making something with wood. He said he would watch the candidates make the article, and see how they worked - did they enjoy their work, did they take a pride in it, did they have that extra something that would make him think that they would do well in his workshop. His employees were really lovely people, ranging from ex-police an engineering graduate who wanted to eventually build his own boat, and a very large guy with dodgy credentials.....

I only mention this because I really applaud people who go into the nitty gritty of the I Ching - I wish that I had the brain to cope with all of this. At the end of the day, it is the feel, the beauty of the I Ching that I find the most useful tool.
 
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deflatormouse

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Zhou Yi is seen as a book of divination, but this doesn’t mean that it can’t have philosophy, or Tao which Chinese usually call. Yi Jing (Zhouyi paraphrased according to Ten Wings, especially Tuan Zhuan (the judgment) and Xiang Zhuan (the image)) indeed is seen as Confucian philosophy of life.

Philosophy and morality can be derived from Zhouyi, but that is not to say that it contains philosophy. Yijing certainly contains philosophy. I think we have the same idea about the relationship of Yijing to Zhouyi, or close.

I do not know much of ancient China compared to some others here, and I am just starting to learn the language. I think one very big difference between Chinese culture and western culture, is that Chinese culture is interested in synthesis and western culture is interested in separation or extraction. Chinese culture took Zhouyi, and added to it the Ten Wings. Western culture recently took Yijing, and removed the Ten Wings. I think the same is true of history and mythology. In China tradition does not separate mythology from history completely. In the west, we are inclined to try to separate everything. Chinese culture likes to put things together, western culture likes to take them apart. I'm curious; what do you think?

For myself and some others, the advantage of separating the Zhouyi from Yijing is a personal autonomy in interpretation. It also has its drawbacks. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from interpreting the Zhouyi as pertaining to Daoist or Confucianist philosophy, I would rather emphasize the freedom not to.

Your thoughts on etymology are wonderful. I hope to see more.
 
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