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moss elk

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This has been on my mind for a while now, just got around to posting it. I'm sure there have been conversations on this before.

It seems to me, and some others in the community have expressed the same opinion: that the line texts were composed (and comprehensible) to describe a situation when only a single line changes.

Recently, I've began ignoring the line text altogether when there are multiple change lines, and making a sentence out of the relationship between the Primary and Related hexagrams.
And it has been making sense.
This makes me wonder, and please tolerate the question:
If there is merit in the individual line texts, and they were composed on a one changing line at a time basis, would there be merit in writing a few thousand more lines to describe all possible permutations?
(ug, it would take much work.
Trojina, I nominate you for this task)
 

Trojina

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Where to start ? Well first are you not still a moderator Moss Elk ? If so you have complimentary access to Change Circle and Yi Academy so I'm puzzled as to why you don't make use of it ?

What's happening there right now ? Well as a group we worked our way through Hilary's Foundation Course which is excellent. Much of the course deals with how to work with multiple moving lines and there is ongoing work around that. What else ? Well we are doing a lot of thinking about trigrams and Harmen has arrived as a guest and has his own thread there where he is available to take questions on his way of doing readings. You can go there and freely participate Moss Elk, why don't you ? All moderators can freely access Yi Academy and CC and right now it is where the most interesting things are happening IMO and where there are so many resources to use such as WikiWing and also of course access to Hilary's wisdom and teaching and often personal attention to your reading.


Now let me go on to your question which is connected with the above in a way


This has been on my mind for a while now, just got around to posting it. I'm sure there have been conversations on this before
.

Plenty of conversations and assignments in Yi Academy, I recommend you go over there to dispel some of these, to my mind, misguided ideas. I trust you will allow me to be blunt Moss since you addressed me ? :)

It seems to me, and some others in the community have expressed the same opinion: that the line texts were composed (and comprehensible) to describe a situation when only a single line changes.

Well it's an opinion I'd dismiss if I were you. It is beyond me why people think that because they cannot cope with the complexity of many lines together the solution is just to reduce it to one. This is like saying because a conversation is complex with many nuances, we should force our interlocutor to say only one thing.

So a conversation like this

Me. Hi Moss, how are you ?

Moss. I'm good, although a feel a bit of colour in the mornings lately

Me. Oh why's that Moss ?

Moss. Well I'm not sure, maybe I'm working too late on the computer

Me. But overall things are fine with you ?

Moss. Yes, good, although my uncle is ill and that's been on my mind a bit.

Me. Oh are you close to him ?

Moss. Yes, he was a big part of my childhood


So in my conversation I get a bit of a rounded picture of how you are. You are okay but work too late, maybe aren't looking after yourself as well as you could be and are worried about your uncle. That's just like getting multiple moving lines in a reading, those nuances in that conversation are like lines that might slightly contradict one another and so on.

Now suppose I only allowed you to say one thing so as not to confuse me and make things really really simple for me ? Suppose I only allowed you to say 'I'm good' ? I'd end up not knowing much at all and this is just like when people think it's a good idea to make Yi less complex by devising methods to force it (effectively this is gagging the I Ching) to just say one thing at a time to make life easy for themselves....except it really doesn't make things easier for them at all. Quite the reverse. They end up with a stunted limited conversation with the Oracle. Hooray they found a really complicated way to gag Yi and get less information and understanding :rolleyes:


Recently, I've began ignoring the line text altogether when there are multiple change lines, and making a sentence out of the relationship between the Primary and Related hexagrams.
And it has been making sense.

This is a very useful thing to do Moss Elk to get the overall picture, and sometimes, not always but sometimes, with a more mundane question it's actually more or less enough to answer your question. But I don't recommend it as general practice because you will miss all the rich things Yi has to say to you just as you would if you insist your friend just say one thing when you ask him how he is. Looking at the primary and relating together are a good method of getting an initial view of the cast but that doesn't mean it's good to always ignore the lines.

This makes me wonder, and please tolerate the question:
If there is merit in the individual line texts, and they were composed on a one changing line at a time basis, would there be merit in writing a few thousand more lines to describe all possible permutations?
(ug, it would take much work.
Trojina, I nominate you for this task)

They weren't composed on a one changing line at a time basis as far as I know. Look at the actual structure of the I Ching, the perfection of it, the endless relationships and references within it. Do you seriously think I could improve on that by throwing more and more commentaries in when it is already perfect as it is ?


Moss Elk why don't you go and work through the Foundations Course, watch the videos, then post questions and discussion points in the threads in Yi Academy. I can't go any further with your questions here as I think you are much mistaken in thinking it is desirable to have only one line at a time.

Also of course multiple moving lines give rise to change patterns which are an important part of the reading IMO. What a dreadful thought that we must lose all the rich complexity and nuance of a reading because people won't learn about all the ways to understand multiple moving lines.

It baffles me even more so when there are now ample learning resources in Yi Academy if one can afford it, it is just £10 a month for all that and access to Wikiwing plus more privacy in readings and a chance to talk to Hilary about your reading. But you, as a moderator, have all that free?? ! I'm confused why you don't use it ? Also I spend so much time writing on there I'm loathe to come over here and talk about it when the resources and the Academy are over there.

No I'm not on commission ;) but after maybe 12 years of talking about multiple moving lines on multiple threads here in the free public forums, and those threads sinking down and then more people asking the same questions about multiple moving lines over and over again....well it's much more effective, now we have an actual beginners course sitting there in Yi Academy, with ongoing threads and so much help and ideas for people to point them over there where it's all laid out for them...well especially you since as it's free why wouldn't you :confused:
 

Trojina

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also we've been discussing multi change lines in CC for months Mr Elk....it would have been good to have your participation there


Also I just started this thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...-too-afraid-to-ask-Hilary&p=231892#post231892

it's called 'things you were too afraid to ask Hilary' and the idea is you can ask all the things there you feel you should know but don't and feel by this stage too silly to ask. All academies need such a place because there will always be something everyone else seems to know and for some reason you don't or you can never quite grasp

You could post your query there maybe ?
 

moss elk

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The line texts themselves are a simplification. Example: Primary hex has text, Related hex has text. Writing a line text simplifies two texts into one. I do not believe that when there are five changing lines that each line is applicable to the situation in question. (This is why I won't post to wikiwing any experience with multi lines, only single line experiences.)
So, I don't see how what I am proposing is any different than what the line author did. I just don't think s/he finished what they started.

Thanks for the suggestion to participate in those other parts of Clarity. I am busy with work and parenting, and retiling my well. I'll do what I can.

Cheers
 

bradford

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Moss Elk -
Somebody already did this, and wrote a single line text for all 4096 possible throws.
It's called the Yi Lin or Forest of Changes. To me it's just something that one guy made up,
and never got the testing that the Zhouyi and Yijing got. But it's out there and is now fully translated.
Just search for Yilin.

In principle I like your idea, and in fact I try it out whenever I get multiple changing lines.
But the real key to doing this well is getting the right gestalt for both Ben Gua and Zhi Gua so you're moving between better known points. This doesn't work well if you misunderstand the key concept of one of the Gua, which people most often fail at by using bad names for the Hexagrams, or bad translations of the names.
 

Liselle

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While I am not in favor of overhauling something that's stood the test of time for thousands of years, I think I see what Moss Elk means (maybe). How do hexagram A and hexagram B act when combined? In the way described by the line that connects them. That's not terribly far from part of what we've discussed in Foundations, I don't think. I've never thought farther to wonder whether you could replace the hexagrams with the line (if that's what M.E. even meant).

Let's try one. Random number between 1 and 64: 58.
Random number between 1 and 6: 5.

58, Opening, moving at line 5 to 54, Marrying Maiden.

58:
'Opening, creating success.
Constancy bears fruit.'

58.5
'Trusting in stripping away,
There is danger.'


54:
'The marrying maiden.
To set out to bring order: pitfall.
No direction is fruitful.'


Engaging in open communication with someone in a supporting role, a subordinate, is a dangerous undertaking? You're trusting someone you shouldn't? I can sort of see that. For example, in a marriage, if a spouse talks freely about the marriage to the other spouse's cousins, there would be risks in that, I think. The information might circulate (be "stripped away"), the trust between the spouses would be ruined.

Could you use the line without the hexagrams? I don't know why that would be any better, but besides, if all you had was -

'Trusting in stripping away,
There is danger.'


- you wouldn't have any idea what kind of trust, or what kind of stripping away, or what kind of danger, or what the danger might arise from...would you?

Just going by the words in the line, "stripping away" and "trust," I might decide that must be the line that connects 23 and 61. But it doesn't, it connects 58 and 54, and those are different things.
 

moss elk

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Somebody already did this, and wrote a single line text for all 4096 possible throws. It's called the Yi Lin or Forest of Changes.
Thank you!
I am interested in reading it.
:bows:

I guess this means you are off the hook Trojina. ;)
 

moss elk

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While I am not in favor of overhauling something that's stood the test of time for thousands of years...
I wasn't exactly suggesting to alter the Yi jing, It is just an idea that kept coming back to me over the last year, even after I kept dismissing it.

58:
'Opening, creating success.
Constancy bears fruit.'
58.5
'Trusting in stripping away,
There is danger.'
54:

'The marrying maiden.
To set out to bring order: pitfall.
No direction is fruitful.'

How about like this?
58: Opening/Friends/Trusting/Welcoming
L5: Trusting/Friending ~ Something that is without merit.
54: Something that is not fruitful, a direction without merit
 
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moss elk

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It is beyond me why people think that because they cannot cope with the complexity of many lines together the solution is just to reduce it to one. This is like saying because a conversation is complex with many nuances, we should force our interlocutor to say only one thing.

It isn't exactly about coping with complexity. What I'm saying is that with multiple changing lines, (more lines=more likely) that some lines are extraneous.
It is about disregarding that my uncle used to wear plaid pants, when I am really talking about his positive influence on me. Some things get filtered out. (and should)
 

Trojina

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Cgait's translation is available here to buy

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...Lin-(Forest-of-Changes)-Translation-Available


Not to undermine such a huge and valuable undertaking, it's fascinating, but from what I've seen the verses are very much a mystery in terms of use for practical divination. If you search for Cgait's responses in SR you can find some examples where I ask him how he can apply the verse to the answer. I find them completely incomprehensible when applied to any question though I know LiSe has the book and uses it, it's a very big book I hear. I somehow don't think this is what you are after although in itself you may certainly find it worth buying.


I don't think I understood your initial question. When you said

If there is merit in the individual line texts, and they were composed on a one changing line at a time basis, would there be merit in writing a few thousand more lines to describe all possible permutations?
(ug, it would take much work.

...I thought you meant invent a load more brand new lines so that all combinations would have only one line...well I guess that's sort of what you did mean although I didn't connect it to the Yi lin.


Trojina, I nominate you for this task)

If you have a software journal http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/journal-software/ you and everyone who uses it will naturally undertake this task for themselves anyway without even being aware of it. That is eventually you might find you have 5 readings for a particular cast where you've seen how it played out and develop a shorthand for it. One example I had was 10.1.4>59 when I was anxious about a card being delivered on time and as I cast the postman was Treading and Dispersing and the trepidation in line 4 described the feelings around this little event. Line 1 seemed to describe the postman whom I was given a description of. So this was such a neat little mundane example that every time I get the same cast I can look for the similarities and from that I could develop another line, or verse, or something, to sum it up. But guess what, such observations aren't so easily transposable from one reading scenario to another. I could use my postman example to help me think about all my other 10>59 readings but I can't sum them up in a neat foolproof one line package, it doesn't work and I'm glad it doesn't because if it did it would mean the I Ching was so much less vast than it is in it's applications.

So I'd recommend the software journal to begin to undertake the task you suggest because without it you just can't see the patterns of your readings. For example there is no way I could find all my 10.1.4>59 casts by rooting through ancient notebooks but with the software journal I can find them all in a moment alongside the experience I had with the cast. Again I'm not on commission ;) but if you want to see connection between the same casts this is a very useful piece of 'equipment' to have.


The line texts themselves are a simplification. Example: Primary hex has text, Related hex has text. Writing a line text simplifies two texts into one.

:confused: no I don't agree, a line text is an addition not a simplification IMO. So primary hexagram has text you use and you also use the line text in context of the primary hexagram. The line text isn't standing apart from the primary and relating.



I do not believe that when there are five changing lines that each line is applicable to the situation in question. (This is why I won't post to wikiwing any experience with multi lines, only single line experiences.)

With 5 change lines I personally would place less stress on each line and would be thinking about broader picture the primary and relating make...but I don't think that means that those 5 lines aren't in the situation at all. They must be. Everything you receive in an answer is there for you to use and is part of your answer. But for various reasons we choose to focus on certain parts of the reading at certain points in our Yi life. I think, to a degree, that's a natural part of our relation to Yi and I think it's an individual thing. If it feels right for you at this time not to read 5 lines changing or take them much into account then that's how your mind is engaging with the 'conversation' at that time. I think people go through phases where some aspects of readings really stand out for them and others recede. For many years I thought looking at the nuclear hexagram was pointless but now when I'm stuck I naturally want to see the nuclear. So when you say you don't believe that 5 change lines are applicable in a reading you can only speak for yourself at this time in your relation with Yi I think. You can only say that you yourself have decided not to look at the lines when so many change. But those lines are still part of the reading in one way or another and another person may choose to utilise them and not look at the sentence the two hexagrams make. There's a huge difference in what aspects of a reading people focus on. As I said to a degree I think this is a natural part of developing a relationship with Yi but then again it can easily turn into a rut if you decide one aspect of a reading doesn't count. But who can use all aspects of a reading at once anyway ? I can't. Right now I like to look at line pathways and change patterns but next year I might be drawn elsewhere. Many people are very interested in trigrams right now and place text as secondary in their interpretations. I don't focus much on trigrams now since I'm not drawn there, but I may in a years time.


So, I don't see how what I am proposing is any different than what the line author did. I just don't think s/he finished what they started.

Author ? It wasn't all down to one author was it and it originated from beyond any author. When Hilary asked Yi 'where do you come from ?' she got 11uc will see if I can find the blog on that.

Here we are there's a link in this blog to that one http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2015/06/25/consulting-under-the-sky/

on the 11uc cast where she asks Yi 'how were you made' http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2015/03/17/i-dont-know-the-first-thing-about-the-yi/

I think what was started was finished and we are uncovering what is already whole in all the various ways we have to do that.
 
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Trojina

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Ooops I think we did some multiple cross posting


It isn't exactly about coping with complexity. What I'm saying is that with multiple changing lines, (more lines=more likely) that some lines are extraneous.
It is about disregarding that my uncle used to wear plaid pants, when I am really talking about his positive influence on me. Some things get filtered out. (and should)

I sort of answered this in my above long post. You choose what to filter out naturally but that doesn't mean everyone should or that it's a generally good idea. You are naturally choosing to filter out multiple lines and so do I to an extent, but that is for expediency in interpretation, it doesn't mean those lines aren't relevant or aren't saying anything. It's how people naturally simplify for themselves, they focus on a few aspects of a reading that intuitively stand out to them and this can work very well because Yi interpretation is an art not a mechanical process. But as soon as someone says 'hey I know how make this Oracle simpler' all that happens is they reduce it, they make it less than it is. Methods of boiling answers down to one line reduce what Yi can give you but if you want it reduced that much it can work for you I guess
 

Trojina

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Oh I was looking for the blog on hex 11 and authorship and found this http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2016/02/01/just-one-thing/

it sort of reflects our discussion that whilst we have all these ways of understanding a reading we don't necessarily need to use them all at once. But that's a choice, it doesn't mean the elements we filter out don't matter at all, it's just we can find answers simply at times
 

Liselle

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For what it's worth, I remember at least one reading with a lot of moving lines where I understood every one of them. Granted that's not much of a claim.
 

hilary

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What lots of people already said.

Also, I don't believe it's true that the Yi was composed on this 'one line at a time' basis. I've come across several cases where I can clearly understand a two line change as describing the relationship between two hexagrams. And if I can recognise this happening even once... I think that implies it might happen more than once - maybe even all the time - maybe even for more than two lines changing...

When I don't recognise the connection, where's the deficiency more likely to be? In the complexity and subtlety of the Yi? Or in my powers of recognition?

About 58.5 to 54 -
58: Opening/Friends/Trusting/Welcoming
L5: Trusting/Friending ~ Something that is without merit.
54: Something that is not fruitful, a direction without merit
Yes, could be. 'Trusting or befriending something that is without merit.' OK, how do you mean, trusting or befriending? In what way? How do you mean, without merit? What kind of merit? What exactly is the problem with this? What danger should I be looking out for and how will I recognise it?

To answer those questions, you're going to need to look at 58 and 54 in some depth. And if you want to imagine looking at the hexagrams without reading the line, you'll have a similar problem in reverse. 'Opening/conversing/exchanging like the Marrying Maiden'. What might that look like? Trivial girlish chatter? Being endlessly adaptable and obliging? Concentrating above all on making things pleasant for other people? (All of which assumes you're not going to read it as 'Conversing with the Marrying Maiden' of course…)

This is a line that's quite easy to read as the meeting of the two hexagrams - there are trickier examples. But if with just one moving line we're already in danger of missing things by omitting parts of the reading, what kind of mess could we get into in more complex readings?
 

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cjgait

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Moss Elk -
Somebody already did this, and wrote a single line text for all 4096 possible throws.
It's called the Yi Lin or Forest of Changes. To me it's just something that one guy made up,
and never got the testing that the Zhouyi and Yijing got. But it's out there and is now fully translated.
Just search for Yilin.

In principle I like your idea, and in fact I try it out whenever I get multiple changing lines.
But the real key to doing this well is getting the right gestalt for both Ben Gua and Zhi Gua so you're moving between better known points. This doesn't work well if you misunderstand the key concept of one of the Gua, which people most often fail at by using bad names for the Hexagrams, or bad translations of the names.

Well, I'm not entirely sure it was one person writing the Forest of Changes. The key problem with the Forest of Changes is that only about 1500 of the original verses survived. The rest of the book is repetitions of those verses in various amounts. The other factor that makes the Forest a dysfunctional oracle is that it is very negative. The texts of the Yi are very nearly balanced, with predominance of the positive. The Yi Lin is overwhelmingly negative. I am in the process of making a table that will redirect a reader to a Forest verse that is appropriate to the Yi Jing text for that set of hexagrams. For instance this morning I got 8 - 51. The Forest verse is:

8 - 51

Leaving the house and meeting disaster,
Encountering a demon with five red heads.
It leaps and yells, gibbering,
Holding still to keep alive,
Not daring to make a move.

But the Yi text of 8, judgement (which is what you read from 8 - 51 by the Nanjing method) is overall positive, with a warning at the end.

The verse my table will point to is 19 - 33

19 - 33

Eight hundred feudal lords met,
Gathering spontaneously,
Inspired by the virtue of the Lord of the West.
We arouse our clans,
United in a shared determination.

I will use that one because it speaks of union and, though it doesn't have a warning at the end verbatim, those who know Chinese history will feel it. When the forces gathered to attack Zhou Xin of Shang those who came late were punished.
 

moss elk

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For what it's worth, I remember at least one reading with a lot of moving lines where I understood every one of them. Granted that's not much of a claim.

Also, I don't believe it's true that the Yi was composed on this 'one line at a time' basis. I've come across several cases where I can clearly understand a two line change as describing the relationship between two hexagrams.

In my readings, I have also had an occassion or two where several lines and their relevance to the subject were visible to me. An occassion or two amongst a multitude of occassions.
But more often than not, we find the answers we need, without seeing 5 lines of applicability. And somehow each of us, in our individual degrees of experience and comprehension, generally finds what we need to know. Or at least enough direction to free us up to go make some toast and stop worrying.

Thanks for the input everyone.
You guys are peachy.
 
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cjgait

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Using Nanjing, we would read the 4th line of 58 if it was changing. Since it is not, we read the judgment text of 58.
 

Liselle

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Well, my reading with a lot of lines where I understood them all was a chronological story. That's a different way of "understanding them all" than Hilary's talking about:

I've come across several cases where I can clearly understand a two line change as describing the relationship between two hexagrams.

- and of course what Hilary's talking about is the point here. In hindsight I'm not even sure why I mentioned my example, I suppose just because you said when there are a lot of lines some of them will be bordering on off-topic.

I do have some sympathy for your point, Moss Elk. In a reading with lots of lines, if there is the "answer/advice" and the "other relevant information," sometimes it's clear which is which but sometimes not. And what I'm after, usually, is the advice part...

[Added - and actually it might be relevant, at least for any decision I might make about casting methods (other people's results might vary) that once upon a time I tried a one-line-only casting method for a while, and my readings weren't any clearer anyway.]


I am in the process of making a table that will redirect a reader to a Forest verse that is appropriate to the Yi Jing text for that set of hexagrams.

I know less than nothing about this. But what you're saying does not make me want to spend time with it. I mean, from what people are saying, it's suspect methodology in the first place, and you're adding that it might be wrong to boot... am I missing something?
 
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cjgait

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I know less than nothing about this. But what you're saying does not make me want to spend time with it. I mean, from what people are saying, it's suspect methodology in the first place, and you're adding that it might be wrong to boot... am I missing something?

The Nanjing method and the Forest of Changes are two completely different subjects. The Nanjing method is based on divinations described in the Zhou Traditions of the Spring and Autumn Annals (Chun Qiu Zuo Zhuan) and Discourses of the States. It is solid scholarship and reestablishes a key methodology of antiquity. If modern diviners prefer to use multi line readings that is entirely their prerogative. I prefer the old ways, generating just one text.

The Forest of Changes (Jiao Shi Yi Lin) is a Han dynasty work. It has merit as a cultural snapshot of Han beliefs, Confucian thought in the late Western Han and the omen-based approach to history espoused by the Gong Yang Commentary school. After I complete my conversion table I hope to make it a practical oracle again. As it is it is very much a hit and miss oracle.
 
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svenrus

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Concerning the NanJing-rules You can find a description at biroccos site

See note 7 in this pdf. This article is written by one of those scholars in Nanking.
 

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