I know that Zhi Gua changing line texts are not meant to be read, but if the changing lines were "old" in the initial hexagram, then changed and are "young" now in the resultant hexagram, does that mean that the other lines got "old" meanwhile and therefore there is some emphasis on them? Maybe it's a basic question, but I'm new to Yijing and it's hard for me not to read any of those pretty Zhi Gua line texts

Hi Yick,

As a matter of perspective, it is useful to read the text of the resulting lines in the derived hexagram. However, they are not part of Yi's answer to your question.

Welcome to Clarity,

Luis

Does anything really mean anything ...

in the I Ching or anywhere else ? Some people will have fixed opinions that they do or they don't. Some might even have "proof", re-discovered ancient text or modern logical expressions. I've often considered similar systems about changing lines, there is all sorts of things you could do with them, where do you think your really going to get the answers ?

All you gotta do punk is ask yourself, Does it work for you ?

thanks, so it's up to me what will I do with them. I just wanted to know if there is some soft rule about it that more of you can agree on. In cases with five changing lines it would be very interesting rule, but I didn't get enough such responses yet to test it.

Well there are rules ...

and I think generally you don't refer to to changing lines in the secondary or relating hexagram. One of the things I like about the I Ching is that it embraces change, and you can play draughts with chess pieces but you couldn't call it chess.

I have seen talk here that some people do look at the lines that changed in the secondary hexagram. But your suggestion that the lines that didn't change have matured and are therefore prominent, sounds reasonable, why would everything come to a halt, even the secondary hexagram moves on in the story.

There is also a discussion in another thread, http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=3780, that it's the young lines that change because they are the unstable ones. Im sure you can build a system on that theory as well, it's a bit more of a stretch though.

yick said:

I know that Zhi Gua changing line texts are not meant to be read, but if the changing lines were "old" in the initial hexagram, then changed and are "young" now in the resultant hexagram, does that mean that the other lines got "old" meanwhile and therefore there is some emphasis on them? Maybe it's a basic question, but I'm new to Yijing and it's hard for me not to read any of those pretty Zhi Gua line texts

Click to expand...

Yick-
I'll second what Luis said. The corresponding line in the Zhi Gua (which I've called the Fan Yao or line coming back), is usually worth looking at, but should not be read as part of the so-called prediction. These lines seem to have been used often by the authors to add metaphors and inspiration for the text they were writing (so was the Zhi Gua). This is why it often helps you to understand the line you really did get. However, I recently read for a woman where the Fan Yao was actually the key to the whole reading.

Stevev:
...suggestion that the lines that didn't change have matured and are therefore prominent, sounds reasonable, why would everything come to a halt, even the secondary hexagram moves on in the story.

- this is exactly what I thought: Why would everything come to a halt?

This makes sense to me structurally. But that thing with Fan Yao makes sense linguistically and seems to be backed by experience. But, Bradford, in case of five lines changing, wouldn't you be tempted to put more stress on that remaining line?

bradford said:

However, I recently read for a woman where the Fan Yao was actually the key to the whole reading.

Click to expand...

I didn't know you read for other people, Brad. Quite natural, of course, but surprising at the same time.

L

Hi Yick,

You may want to take a look at these links for some structured thought on how to tackle moving lines:

How to interpret changing lines (Steve Marshall's site)

And this from Hilary's blog: Multiple changing lines again

L

Thanks a lot!
These rules make a lot of sense to me (except for that Zhu Xi's strange method).

1 line changes
this is your answer, take it to be the answer in preference to a contradictory judgment (the lines always take precedence over the judgment if there is contradiction)

2 lines change
uppermost line of the two is most important

3 change
middle most important (for Zhu Xi's original method for three changing lines, see below)

4 change
go over to the second hexagram and take the lowermost of the two lines that have not changed from the first hexagram (example below)

5 change
in the second hexagram take the line that hasn't come from a change in the first hexagram (example below)

6 change
the first hexagram's situation is entirely past or on the brink of change, the second hexagram is more important, take the judgment

Since this comes up a lot, I'll repost Adler's translation of Zhuxi's actual words here.
For those who don't know him, he was the third of the Song's preeminent Yixue scholars,
coming after Shao Yong and Zhou Dunyi. He lived 1130-1200 ce.

Method for Interpreting Multiple Changing Lines

From Zhixi’s Yixue Qiming, tr. Joseph A. Adler
IV. Examining the Prognostications of the Changes(159)
(excerpt)
….
Any hexagram may have all unchanging lines. In that case we prognosticate on the basis of the original hexagram's T'uan statement, taking the inner hexagram as {z}hen [the question, or present situation] and the outer hexagram as hui [the prognostication].
….
When only one line changes, we take the of the original hexagram's changing line as the prognostication.
….
When two lines change, we take the statements of the two changing lines of the original hexagram as the prognostication, but we take the uppermost line as ruler.(173)
….
When three lines change, the prognostication is the T'uan statement of the original hexagram and the resulting hexagram, and we use the original hexagram as chen and the resulting hexagram as hui. In the first ten hexagrams [of this sort] we make chen the ruler; in the latter ten hexagrams we make hui the ruler.
….
When four lines change, we use the two unchanging lines in the resulting hexagram as the prognostication. But we take the lower line as ruler.
….
When five lines change, we use the unchanging line of the resulting hexagram as the prognostication.
….
When six lines change, in the cases of Ch'ien and K'un, the prognostications of both are used. For other hexagrams, the prognostication is the T'uan statement of the resulting hexagram.
….
Thus each hexagram can change into sixty-four hexagrams, resulting in 4,096 [combinations of] hexagrams . This is what is meant by "Continuing by extension, adding to each and expanding them, all possible phenomena under Heaven are included."(181) How can we not believe it? We now take the changes [combinations] of the sixty-four hexagrams and arrange them into thirty-two charts (Fig.19). To obtain the first [32] hexagrams we go from beginning to end and from top to bottom. To obtain the last [32] hexagrams we go from the end to the beginning and from bottom to top. The changes in the hexagrams up through the 32nd use the line s of the original hexagram as prognostication. The changes of the hexagrams after the 32nd use the lines of the changed hexagram as prognostication.

Yes but how could anybody assert these were the facts about moving lines, prognostication and interpretations. Chris will be here next with logical expressions asserting something else. These ideas may have worked for Zhuxi, who no doubt is worth listening too but in the end I think the I Ching gives everybody the right to use whatever works for them, and I'd even take it further, the I Ching encourages original thought and ideas and seems to embrace them with as much enthusiasm as it embrases the old tried and tested methods.

Yeah-
Why would the Book of Changes not embrace change?
As long as it got to keep its 3000 years of continuity, anyway.
As for me, as I've said many times here of late (and findable
using the search feature) my own method of choice is
Transitional Hexagrams. I don't use the Fuxi method, but was
only providing a precise version for those who were interested.

When I rephrase my initial question to: What do unchanging lines do (while the changing lines are changing)?
then using above rules the answer is: yes, they really do mature.
I'll take it one step further.
According to Zhuxi, when there are two or less matured lines in Zhi Gua, then these lines are the most important lines to the whole reading. In other cases he seeks the most important lines among Ben Gua changing lines, but this does not mean that these matured lines do not have relatively stronger positions among the Zhi Gua lines. And among these matured lines the lowest is the strongest as the change generally starts from the bottom.
At least this is what I take from it for myself as a possible way of looking at Zhi Gua lines relative relationships.

stevev said:

...Chris will be here next with logical expressions asserting something else. .... the I Ching encourages original thought and ideas and seems to embrace them with as much enthusiasm as it embrases the old tried and tested methods.

Click to expand...

Nothing to do with the IC 'as is'., more about what the IC represents - our minds. We can identify the development of mind and so distinct phases where symmetric thinking develops asymmetric and the combination of the two elicits anti-symmetric aka hierarchy.

The ancients lacked clear understanding of what they were dealing with and as such there is a lot of ad hoc work as there is fantasy; the latter showing us our imagination trying all possible methods!

IN symmetric thinking there is no 'changing line' focus.
IN asymmetric there is no more than one 'changing' lines.
IN anti-symmetric we have multiple changing lines with TWO main forms of interpretation due to the hierarchy:

(a) each line is independent from all others and represents the 'yin/yang' dynamics of that level in the hierarchy. These are properties of non-nested hierachies (pyramid forms, a focus on control etc)

(b) each line is semi-independent in that it has relationships with the other lines, especially those immediately above/below (but even then the lines for PAIRS). These are properties of nested hierachies.

Past perspectives of the IC, and so 10th century BC thinking, have not had access to current research on how we, as a species, derive meaning. The continued promotion of these archaic, superstition-sourced, perspectives do the I Ching an injustice.

As the development of our brain shows, the current pinnicle of development is in frontal lobe/PFC dynamics and THAT area favours use of delay, of reason, of proper, asymmetric, logic. Unfortunately most prefer to live off symmetric thinking and so use a subset of logic to deal with reality (and so suffer the consequences!)

Chris.

Wow, what does this science means in practice?
I think I have to search more Chris's posts, hope I will understand them...

yick said:

I think I have to search more Chris's posts, hope I will understand them...

Click to expand...

No you don't--either "have to" or "will understand"--and if you do, do so at your own peril... Chris's 21st Century thinking will be understood in the 23th, when Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock are at the command of the U.S.S. Enterprise...

L

PS: in all fairness, all this is true in a browse and casual reading of his material.

Now, Steve, Chris is blameless here...

As for the rest, well, yes and no. Even though the Yi allows you to take your own paths, be it on your methods of interpretation or your decisions based on its prognostications, there is the weight of history and tradition. Mind you, history or tradition does not mean "correctness" but, nevertheless, it has a lot of weight. We are talking about people and sages that dedicated whole lives, sans the distractions of modern life, to really chew on the material at hand and thus comment on it. All of that cannot be discarded, off hand, on a whim of "I have my own way of doing it".


L

stevev said:

Do you think we are in a period of accelerated I Ching evolution, it seems that way to me.

Click to expand...

Hi Steve,

That's a very good observation. I think we are, indeed, and the key is communication and parallel processing. Presently, there are a lot more minds dedicated to the study of the Yi than at any previous time in history. I believe that, other than apparent confusion, out of that chaotic soup of ideas, something will come out as bona fide evolution in our comprehension of the classic.

L

Hi all,
I see this topic for the first time... hope it's still active.

I have a question about this:

When three lines change, the prognostication is the T'uan statement of the original hexagram and the resulting hexagram, and we use the original hexagram as chen and the resulting hexagram as hui. In the first ten hexagrams [of this sort] we make chen the ruler; in the latter ten hexagrams we make hui the ruler.

what I can't understand is *In the first ten hexagrams [of this sort]...*
about wich ten hexagrams are they referring?

thank you in advance

my opinion about the art of considering lines.... I think that the best way is to chose before to ask the yi.. wich system we want to use for the divination.

Patro

*In the first ten hexagrams [of this sort]...* makes no sense at all to me, at least out of context.
The Zhen (used to be chen) and Hui comment is good though, imo, even for two changing lines. And it makes contradictions between lines less important or disturbing.
For those who don't know, this is the old way of seeing Ben and Zhi Gua and also Lower and Upper Primary Bagua, and is mentioned in the Shujing (Ch 5.4). Zhen is what we bring to the time, with inertia working against change, Hui is how the time is unfolding. The word Hui is used tongue-in-cheek or ironically, since this is the same word used in the Zhouyi for "regret".

Zhen and hui, I like that. Seeing the resulting hexagram as the situation works fine for me, makes always sense in readings. The situation or 'outside' or the time, or very often the mess I happen to be in and have to do something about - which is why I consult the Yi. Regret applies usually quite well.

And the Zhen as what I can do about it, or cannot do. The advice and my actions.