Right or wrong actions: How to know when it implies someone else's actions?

lyrandra · Nov 29, 2009

Hi,

I have a quick question for the experts. Sometimes, a line indicates that you can either act the right way or the wrong way. It tells you which action will bring fortune and which action will bring misfortune. From a personal perspective, it's relatively easy. However, when it relates to someone else's actions, I find it harder to read.

Here's an example which I think really demonstrates my point:

Hexagram 58, line 4: "Often a man finds himself weighing the choice between various kinds of pleasures, and so long as he has not decided which kind he will choose, the higher or the lower, he has no inner peace. Only when he clearly recognizes that passion brings suffering, can he make up his mind to turn away from the lower pleasures and to strive for the higher. Once this decision is sealed, he finds true joy and peace, and inner conflict is overcome."

The person here needs to make a choice, either right or wrong. It doesn't specifically states that the right or wrong action is going to be taken. It just states that a choice needs to be made. If the question implies my own actions, it's easy. But what if the question implies someone else's actions? How can I know that this person's going to do either the right action or the wrong action? Can you see this with the second hexagram? Does the second hexagram give insight on the other person's possible actions since it talks about the outcome?

I'm trying to improve my reading and to learn where I make mistakes. I still have problems when it comes to that issue. Maybe that's not the type of questions I should ask? If you guys could give me your point of view on that, I would really appreciated. :bows:

jesed · Nov 29, 2009

Hi Lyandra

No expert, but in case the comment could be useful

lyrandra said:
Hexagram 58, line 4: "Often a man finds himself weighing the choice between various kinds of pleasures, and so long as he has not decided which kind he will choose, the higher or the lower, he has no inner peace. Only when he clearly recognizes that passion brings suffering, can he make up his mind to turn away from the lower pleasures and to strive for the higher. Once this decision is sealed, he finds true joy and peace, and inner conflict is overcome."

The person here needs to make a choice, either right or wrong.

1.- I'm sure you are clear about this, but I would say it again. That is not line 4..that is someone's interpretation on line 4. Many people refers more to commentaries than to the text.

2.- Yijing is not an automatic thing. No matter is you are reading for yourself, or for another people. The answer is just a MODEL not the REALITY. You always need to check the model against the reality (that is discernment). If model and reality combine, you can wait to see in reality the omen of the model. If model and reality doesn't match, you can't expect to see in real life the omen of the model. In ancient text this is explained with several cases.

3.- If the answer is only about Hex 58, Line 4.
a) The Yijing says: "Joyousness that is weighed is not at peace" The model is of a person with inner hesitation. First thing for you to examinate: Does this model match the real status of the person?
b) The Yijing says: "After ridding himself of mistakes a man has joy." This is not telling that the people is going to do it; nor that the people is not to doing it. It is only a lesson of fact:the way to achieve joy is ridding the mistakes. Second thing for you to examinate: Are you going to to tell that line to your friend? Are you free to accept whatever he/she would decide?
c) The Yijing says: "the superior man joins with his friends for discussion and practice." This is a model where he/she would find dificult to make a right decision by her/his own. He/she need the help of friends. Third thing for you to examinate: are you the right friend to help him/her?
d) The cause of 58.4 is in 56.4: the traveler (a lonely one) has a place but there is sadness inside. The effect when you achieve the lesson in 58.4 is the model of someone in peace with his/her limitations.

The model of this answer makes me think that you may be involved in the reading. Are you expecting to set new rules in the relation with this person? This new set of rules in the relation that you may expect, implies the recognition and enmend of his/her mistakes (or what you see as his/her mistakes)?

If this model (my personal interpretation) match your reality, I would say that you need to work together, without recrimination but serenity. But of course, if this model has nothing to do with you real life, then ignore it.

Best wishes

my_key · Nov 29, 2009

Right or wrong actions: How to know when it implies someone else's actions?

Any reading that you make is always the best reading that you can make at that time. You give the reading through your current understanding so when you are giving a reading for someone else there is know way of knowing how it applies to that other person and whether they would take the same actions as you would.
You offer it up to them and it either resonates with them or it doesn't. End of story - nothing right or wrong about it.

Be well
Mike

lyrandra · Nov 30, 2009

jesed said:
Hi Lyandra

No expert, but in case the comment could be useful

1.- I'm sure you are clear about this, but I would say it again. That is not line 4..that is someone's interpretation on line 4. Many people refers more to commentaries than to the text.

2.- Yijing is not an automatic thing. No matter is you are reading for yourself, or for another people. The answer is just a MODEL not the REALITY. You always need to check the model against the reality (that is discernment). If model and reality combine, you can wait to see in reality the omen of the model. If model and reality doesn't match, you can't expect to see in real life the omen of the model. In ancient text this is explained with several cases.

3.- If the answer is only about Hex 58, Line 4.
a) The Yijing says: "Joyousness that is weighed is not at peace" The model is of a person with inner hesitation. First thing for you to examinate: Does this model match the real status of the person?
b) The Yijing says: "After ridding himself of mistakes a man has joy." This is not telling that the people is going to do it; nor that the people is not to doing it. It is only a lesson of fact:the way to achieve joy is ridding the mistakes. Second thing for you to examinate: Are you going to to tell that line to your friend? Are you free to accept whatever he/she would decide?
c) The Yijing says: "the superior man joins with his friends for discussion and practice." This is a model where he/she would find dificult to make a right decision by her/his own. He/she need the help of friends. Third thing for you to examinate: are you the right friend to help him/her?
d) The cause of 58.4 is in 56.4: the traveler (a lonely one) has a place but there is sadness inside. The effect when you achieve the lesson in 58.4 is the model of someone in peace with his/her limitations.

The model of this answer makes me think that you may be involved in the reading. Are you expecting to set new rules in the relation with this person? This new set of rules in the relation that you may expect, implies the recognition and enmend of his/her mistakes (or what you see as his/her mistakes)?

If this model (my personal interpretation) match your reality, I would say that you need to work together, without recrimination but serenity. But of course, if this model has nothing to do with you real life, then ignore it.

Best wishes

Thank you, jesed, for your answer. My question wasn't related to a specific reading. It was just a general question since I have a tendency to ask about other people's actions a lot. I was wondering what was the best way to interpret them, if there is. Again, maybe this isn't the type of questions I should ask.

lyrandra · Nov 30, 2009

my_key said:
Any reading that you make is always the best reading that you can make at that time. You give the reading through your current understanding so when you are giving a reading for someone else there is know way of knowing how it applies to that other person and whether they would take the same actions as you would.
You offer it up to them and it either resonates with them or it doesn't. End of story - nothing right or wrong about it.

Be well
Mike

I used "right" and "wrong" to demonstrate that often, in a line, there is always a way to act that will bring good fortune and another way that will only bring misfortune. But if we put the "right" and the "wrong" aside, it always implies actions that you could do and their consequences on the situation. But if there is no way to know, I guess I should reformulate my questions in the future. I thought, maybe, the second hexagram would give insight. But then, I'm no expert.

Thanks for your answer.

jesed · Nov 30, 2009

Hi

Of course you can ask for others action. It is best to ask about others if you are involved. In the ancient texts there are lots of questions for others actions.

Best way to interpret?: draw the model of the answer and check it against the few facts of reality you have. I know this can seems like saying everything and nothing at the same time; but I don't know how can explain it in diferent way.

Also, the way you frame the question has a high impact in the way you can interpret. If ypu ask "will x do y", the answer point to the most probably action. But even in that case, that is only a tendency -based on present influences- that can change due to free will.

Best wishes

jesed · Nov 30, 2009

p.s. and that is the risk of "short and definitive answers" style of interpretation: to forget that the yi gives ONLY the present influences and tendencies. There is always the posibility to change those tendencies ("modify the destiny" would say the ancient sages). In acient text there are several examples: the Yi divination shows a militar defeat; the general avoid the battle that day... and win the war latter.

best wishes

lyrandra · Nov 30, 2009

jesed said:
Hi

Of course you can ask for others action. It is best to ask about others if you are involved. In the ancient texts there are lots of questions for others actions.

Best way to interpret?: draw the model of the answer and check it against the few facts of reality you have. I know this can seems like saying everything and nothing at the same time; but I don't know how can explain it in diferent way.

Also, the way you frame the question has a high impact in the way you can interpret. If ypu ask "will x do y", the answer point to the most probably action. But even in that case, that is only a tendency -based on present influences- that can change due to free will.

Best wishes

Usually, my questions are formulated like this: "How will X act with me if I do Y?" That way, it tells me if I should or not do the action. However, I never realized that lines can sometimes have different meanings and can imply different actions, not only one. So, if I asked "How will X act with me if I do Y?" and I get a changing line that involves an action that can lead to fortune and another that can lead to misfortune, that's where I'm stuck. Sometimes, both actions mentioned in the line applies perfectly to the situation and both are perflectly possible. So, how can I know which one the person will take?

gene27 · Nov 30, 2009

Lyranda

It is best not to concern ourselves with someone else's actions. You are doing the reading, not anyone else. The advice is for us. If you are doing a reading for someone, the advice applies specifically to that person. If you are concerned about how someone relates to you, okay, I understand, you want to know the meaning of their actions, but even here, be very careful about interpreting their actions, look at how you are relating to them. If they are being unfair to us, the I Ching will tell us how to relate. It doesn't normally worry about them, except as you relate to them.

Gene

...life can be translucent

Right or wrong actions: How to know when it implies someone else's actions?

lyrandra

visitor

jesed

Guest

my_key

visitor

lyrandra

visitor

lyrandra

visitor

jesed

Guest

jesed

Guest

lyrandra

visitor

gene27

visitor

Conversations

Alerts