35.4

candid · Nov 27, 2004

35.4 This line has never been entirely clear to me.

Bradford?s translation calls it a rodent. Gives me the impression of something sneaky.

Wilhelm?s calls it a hamster. Gives me the impression of storing things up for itself ? selfish or hoarding.

LiSe?s calls it 5-skills-squirrel. Doing many things a little but nothing completely.

Any further input?

martin · Nov 27, 2004

It's a stealth plane.

martin · Nov 27, 2004

And this is the pilot, boarding the plane:

candid · Nov 27, 2004

Martin, interesting. Covert, concealed, stealthy progress.

Thanks

candid · Nov 27, 2004

?Perseverance brings danger.?

It doesn?t say misfortune. Just, danger.

candid · Nov 27, 2004

Now I'll forever have that pilot image in my head when I get that line. I like it.

bradford_h · Nov 27, 2004

Hi-
Just a point of language here.
The critter is a Shi2 Shu3
First word is an adjective giving it a long tail
The second is the rodent/rat
Two character words were not unheard of back then, but were much rarer than today.
There's a good chance LiSe is correct that this is the beastie called 5 Skills Rodent
I elected to translate Squirrelly Rodent because of the context and the more obvious meaning this imparts to the line text.

candid · Nov 27, 2004

Thanks, Brad. I'm afraid this still leaves me scratching my head. What is the nature of a "squirrelly rodent"? And how does a squirrelly rodent progress?

martin · Nov 27, 2004

When the sun rises (35) everything becomes visible. Everything will be brought to light.
This is the tendency of the hexagram.
But the subject of line 4 - in the center of the "dark" water trigram - is not acting in accordance with this tendency. He tries to hide something. And he doesn't need to. There is no need for secrecy or stealthy means. He can be open, direct and sincere.

bradford_h · Nov 27, 2004

Candid-
I can't put it any more clearly than Martin.
Yi ethics are usually situational. The stealth, the sneakiness, the admirable five skills are all perfectly appropriate in this Gua's Inverse, #36, Darkening of the Light or Brightness Obscured. But this behavior is either wholly inappropriate or else self destructive in 35. It's time for daylight or sunshine now. Now he's only one step ahead of the gardener's shovel.

candid · Nov 27, 2004

Martin and Brad, thanks very much. Given the nature of 35, I'm seeing your points more clearly. The sun is not stealthy but is visible to all. A rodent lives in holes and walls.

Why, do you suppose, is there no misfortune associated with this line, only danger?

Also, line 6 speaks of danger, but no misfortune.

candid · Nov 27, 2004

Considering my "no misfortune" question may be too obscure to receive a clear answer here, I asked Yi: Why is there no misfortune associated with 35.4 or 6? Answer is 7.

7 - Water (danger) is hidden within the earth. This is interesting since both lines 4 and 6 contain the word "danger", and line 4 refers to hiding.

This leads me to consider that what is unseen may also be unseen by the one making progress. What is unseen or unknown leads to danger. Again, not necessarily to misfortune. Good fortune often entails danger. Could not this be, rather, a hidden light? Not as in 36, where there is intentional guarding of ones own light, but as in a light that can not be seen during a time of progress. An inner unknowable working? The dark ulterior motive may not be part of this at all. Mice do quite well in holes and walls.

Brad, you mentioned the word "ethics". But in this case, might it be that the unseen applies not to a motive to hide, but rather to that which is unseen or unknown by the one making progress? I realize how much anthropomorphic morality has been associated with this line, as well as so many others, and I?m not yet convinced that is the real message here.

Ah, I just noticed that 35.4 relates to 23.4: losing the resting place. I have to say, I?m losing a little rest over trying to grasp this line, fully. Perhaps because it?s unseen light? Possibly clear light. Unknowable. Un-seeable. Stealth-light.

Am I be being too idealistic? Over the years, moralist values have become less relevant in Yi, for me. It speaks more to the way things unfold.

martin · Nov 27, 2004

That is interesting, Candid. Personally, I believe that the writers of the Yi and other wise texts - and the founders of religions - in most cases did not _intend_ to be judgmental.
The moralistic/ethical stuff seems to be mostly an invention of later generations.
For example, the founder of a religion may say that it is a good idea to abstain from worldly pleasures for a while if one wants to make a certain kind of inner progress. This is a factual and practical observation, but a few centuries later it has become a moral issue: "worldly pleasures are bad & you are bad when you have fun & and you should feel very guilty about it!"

In 35.4 the subject is apparently not in tune with the situation or the spirit of the time. That doesn't make him or his actions "bad". It's like the text is saying "Hey, the movie is on channel 4, not on 2!".
It's a pity that Jesus had no TV. Imagine that you could read such things in the bible.

As to the unknowable in 35.4, yes, the water trigram (lines 3,4 and 5) is part of the (upward) flow or process of 35. So it is there for everyone who goes through that process, it is unavoidable. But it may not be a problem for everyone. It probably is, though, at least potentially, if the Yi gives 35 with the fourth line changing.
I guess that the real danger of this "pit", this dark phase in the process, is that one might get stuck there. One might become paranoid, for instance, see enemies in friends and hurt others, oneself or ones course with that stealth plane.
So the Yi says: move on, don't take this too seriously. It is just a phase, the light is nearby.

pagan · Nov 27, 2004

Candid,
Did you have a specific question that you received 35.4 as an answer to?

I usually take this line to be a simple warning that anything unwholesome I do in the situation I am asking about will come to light eventually--I should act now like I am already exposed so there is no embarassment later on.

And beyond that, if there is danger hidden in the Unknown, then by keeping your motives and intentions and actions out in the open, you have the opportunity to be seen and so warned by others if you are heading into danger and don't know it.
P.

jte · Nov 27, 2004

On the danger vs. misfortune question, what is danger except the possibility of misfortune? But danger can be avoided, misfortune seems to be something that strikes more "without warning". So that may be a difference. On the other hand, since I only use translations I may just be trying (wrongly) to apply the semantics of the English words to the line.

*If* this is right, how would the subject of line 4 avoid the danger? I think, by changing the approach taken to make it more in harmony with 35's core meaning.

To those who see "change progressing upward through the lines" perhaps once the change in approach is taken, line 4 moves up to line 5's fullfilment of the meaning of the time.

And yes, I think 4 is a "hidden light" - that's exactly right - but from the line text, I think it's hidden because the approach taken doesn't match the requirements of the situation.

My 2 cents, hope it helps...

- Jeff

candid · Nov 27, 2004

Pagan, the question turned out to be about this very question. I came home from visiting friends, and was still wide awake and full of energy. Being a bit bored but mentally stimulated, I asked Yi: what is a good subject to ponder? My answer was 35.4,6-2. Line 6 may seem to be the obstinacy with which I am persuing this question. But no misfortune is indicated. Only danger. I like danger. One thing I can say for certain, I wasn?t trying to hide anything by bringing it here.

Explanations I've read for 35.4 have never sat right with me, nor have they played out according to the ?human-intent value system? therein.

Question: If every human was wiped off the planet, would Yi's principles still be as true?

Answer: Of course they would be as true. Nature didn't observe man to write it. Man observed nature.

Another one I've been chewing on a lot lately is, 36. And for all the same reasons.

candid · Nov 27, 2004

Jeff, is danger always to be avoided? That would mean never crossing the great water.

bradford_h · Nov 27, 2004

Hi again
More language lessons:
The word used for Danger here is Li4, a whetstone or grindstone.
It indicates stress, friction, severity, harshness, danger, brutal, dfficult, etc.
You can usually see this coming, or feel it coming on.
The word used throughout the Yi for Misfortune is Xiong1.
This depicts a pit in the ground used to trap animals.
I'll often translate it literally as "... (has) pitfalls", and also
as Unfortunate. You may not see this one coming if you
haven't been here before or paid attention to second hand wisdom.

kevin · Nov 27, 2004

Nice lesson Brad - That is a peach

candid · Nov 27, 2004

Martin, I enjoyed your last post. In fact, all your recent posts seem to exude something of earth-wisdom; as though moving from abstract ideas to grass roots intelligence. Like the intelligence of a spider or a coyote: the blueprint is inherent rather than contrived.

Thanks.

candid · Nov 27, 2004

Brad, the issue is that I have been here before. Many times. Or I?d just go with the flow. "Friction, severity, harshness, danger, brutal, difficult, etc." A whetstone sharpens the axe.

As for second hand wisdom, it's a good beginning, but not something I?d stake my life on, or my understanding. The world is replete with second hand wisdom, each claiming their way is the ultimate truism.

candid · Nov 27, 2004

My thanks to those who have helped sort through this question of 35.4. There?s not yet inner resolution on the matter, but you?ve provided me with excellent ideas to think about, and that was what I was asking Yi for, to begin with.

martin · Nov 27, 2004

Thank you for the mirror, Candid. I can recognize myself in it. I guess I'm moving away from abstract ideas already for a long time but the habit of using abstract language, especially in writing, is still there.
So I'm probably more "grass roots" than I may seem sometimes.
And spiders, coyotes - the intelligence of animals is something that fascinates me. They have a direct and clear understanding of what is going on that humans often lack.

candid · Nov 28, 2004

I asked again about the meaning of 35.4, and received 26.2,3,6 to 24.

A contrast is that a bull (26) is large while a mouse/hamster is small. Perhaps a mouse's progress happens in only small, barely noticeable or inconceivable ways. Or something at work behind the scene. I simply can not find a moral issue here, or a compromise of character, motive, intent, secret design, blah, bah, blah.

Giving actuality to the past is advise that seems clear, however. So it's not as though I wish to "make up" a new meaning to the line. The answer is written somewhere in the past. This leads me to reconsider LiSe's 5-skilled squirrel, and also Brad's rodent. But I can not buy the moral value attached to Brad's assigned (read: written in stone) negative association. 24 Return: tells me to back up a bit, and also to find the answer in myself, in my own experiences.

So, back to the hamster.

I thought of the small ground squirrels that live under the propane tank out back. To me, their busy activities may seem insignificant, at least as it applies to my life. They provide me only with small amusement. But to their lives, everything they do is essential to their existence. Might this mean that making great progress also entails an involvement with what may seem insignificant to me, but which to them is essential to their lives, and not only theirs but to the entire ecology of this world?

Reviewing my state of mind and immediate influences at the time I drew the reading: First, the friends who had me over for dinner are not high-minded people. Their lives exist in a secluded, unseen world. To the intellectual, they would seem primitive and insignificant, as far as great progress of humanity is concerned. But everything they do is essential to their lives. In addition, their lives were an important part of my life. They played a key role in helping me to regain a foothold on my progress during a critical period. Perhaps this is the re-tracing spoken of in 26: Remembering that what appears small and insignificant is essential to the bigger picture. All people are essential to making progress. Also, the "small" problems of others may seem insignificant to me, but they can be huge problems to them. This is an important thing to remember.

Rather than progressing "like" a hampster, progressing a hamster, and progressing through a hamster, might be more appropriate.

candid · Nov 28, 2004

From LiSe's 26:

"Gather the signs, store them, and save them in your soul. And tame the big bulls for plowing your fields and for riding on them in everyday life."

heylise · Nov 28, 2004

Every time I want to post, there are so many new mails that I spend all my time reading, and I have no time left for posting anything. So this time I decided to post ever though I am way behind with reading. So maybe I missed things?

It is often very clarifying to look at the opposite hexagram, and there the same line. That is here 5.4. ?Waiting in the blood. Get out of the cave.?
(Don?t wait and stay in a place not fit for you. It is often difficult to take the plunge, but if you don?t, you spoil your time, your mind, maybe even your life.)
It is about the decision of getting out of something you cannot change. Often a very hard one, because when is something not good anymore? And at what point? Usually things get worse in a very slow way, once you notice, you are deep in it already.

So 35.4 will have to do something with an opposite situation. ?Advancing like a five-skills-squirrel. Determination danger.?
Doing many things but not finishing one. In 5.4 it was about finally doing something about it, and here it is about doing too much, but not finishing anything. I know all about that, it is one of my bad habits. Running around, doing many things, and at the end of the day hardly anything has been done.

And then there is the fanyao: 23.4: ?Stripping the rest(ingplace) by superficiality.?
The character fu, skin, can also mean superficial (and a kind of bronze, inconsiderate, chopped meat, beautiful, and a measure of 4 fingers).
Chuang, bed, is also a river-bed, support, a table for merchandise, mattress, bier, machine. Extending it to ?rest? from resting-place, is my own doing.

So 35.4 and 23.4 both have to do with a lack of thoroughness, a warning not to run from one thing to the other, and a warning not to be superficial.

LiSe

heylise · Nov 28, 2004

And 26 to 24: get the big image, so you return to your own essential road.

LiSe

martin · Nov 28, 2004

Summary:
- I don't want to be seen (stealth)
- There is something that I can't see (the unknown)
- I don't look deep enough (superficiality, lack of focus)

Yes?

martin · Nov 28, 2004

I always try to find new names for hexagrams.
35 = "Eyeopener" ?

candid · Nov 28, 2004

Oh well. At least I know now what the line means to me.

35.4

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