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What does Obama's re-election mean for the future of the US?

esolo

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Seemed like a good question. I got...

23.4 > 35

‘Stripping the bed by way of the flesh.
Pitfall.’

Hmm.
 

meng

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Bradford's line 4 contains chilling implications.
 

esolo

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That is a scary line indeed and Bradford's description feels tailor made to the situation:

Depriving the bed of its flesh
Ominous


The natural consequence of unsustainable behavior is extinction of that behavior.
The sleeper awakens to very bad news. Many do not wish him well and carry the
weapons to prove it. There are even a few he thought were his friends, including
his chief of security. They say he was given fair warning about being a greedy rat,
but somehow he needed their envy. If reasons and pleas cannot pierce his covers,
then maybe the knives and swords will. Even as too late as yesterday his fortunes
might have turned. To have given it all away back then was a bargain. Gravity has
the force of a law: you can do many things inside its structure and even find ways
to fly. But gravity now describes this one’s plight, and soon there may be a grave
to sleep in. This is cutting things far too closely: just hope this is only prediction.
 

miakoda

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I asked a similar question early this morning, but got a VERY different answer:

What can we expect from Obama's second term (using 'we' as in the United States)?

40.2.3>62

Catching 3 foxes in the field and also bearing a burden while riding in a carriage.


I wonder if the answers are divergent because they are reflecting each querent's feelings about what we hope for the future?

Miakoda
 

esolo

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They're different questions though. I asked what it would mean for the future of the US and you asked what can we expect.
 

miakoda

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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the question you had asked, Esolo,but it seemed that although the questions were worded differently, they were essentially the same: both of us were trying to learn more about the implications of Obama's re-election and second term. What it will 'mean for the future of the US' or 'what can we expect' (with an implication of 'for the US in the future') sounded like the same question to me.

I didn't post the answer I received to refute your answer or start an argument about Obama. I put it out there because if they were the same question, there might be something to be learned about how we ended up with such divergent readings. Could I have affected my reading because I've been hoping that without the pressure of a re-election coming up Obama might take more risks? And when you asked, were you maybe feeling some dread about the future of the US with Obama in charge? In other words, did our personal views about the situation affect the outcome of the readings? Was the I Ching not only answering the question but also addressing the more individual (and deeper) feelings that were present when the questions were asked? This is a bit more "Exploring Divination" than "Shared Readings" but could be worth examining....

Miakoda
 
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bradford

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I liken 23.4 to that poignant moment where Caesar calls out "Et tu brute?" Bedsheets and togas.
Anyone coming into that office would inherit national bankruptcy and a dying empire, and take much of the blame for its fall. Things are not going to turn around: the government is terminally ill. Obama was the lesser of the two evils. We'll have a slightly smaller military budget, a slightly larger social budget, slightly less environmental damage, slightly more green technology for the survivors to pick up. And a lot more of the same. The solution to 23.4 is hinted at in the Fan Yao, where the actions of the squirrelly rodent are exposed to the light. It's how Gorby saved the Soviet Union by dismantling it: Glasnost and Perestroika.
But the last thing the government wants now is transparency.

PS- none of that is to say that this disintegration is immanent, tied to the Mayan calendar or any other bit of silliness. It's just the inevitable consequence of unsustainable behavior that the behavior can't be sustained.
 
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esolo

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I think both candidates were crap and to me the answer is simply saying that we shouldn't be expecting things to turn around. They're going to get worse.
 

troubadour

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Esolo like many other people across the world I hoped that President Obama would be re-elected but I have never held any illusions about what his second term will entail for the US (and world) economy and to me 23.4 tells it as it is going to be - a trillion dollar deficit and a "fiscal cliff" and continuing tension between the White House and Senate and Congress over how to deal with these things are just a start.

And yes, the US faces a changing world stage too, though I think it is too simplistic to believe that China will rise as the US declines because China too faces many serious fundamental/structural problems which will pose as many challenges to us all, in certain respects, as the problems of the USA will do.

Of course - at least in my view - Hexagram 35 suggests that Progress and Prosperity are somehow latently connected to the apparently doomfilled scenario of 23.4 so perhaps a good day will dawn once the pain and suffering ahead has passed?

Of course we can only speculate about what feats "President Romney" would have performed. But for my money the best guy won.
 

Lilly-La

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Though i am german the political and financial situation of the States have great influence on us here in Europe. I did ask the Yi: how will the financial situation of the US develop within the next 2 years?
Hex 23

Then i asked: how will the political situation of the US develop within the next 2 years?
Hex 39.2.4

Well, that reflects my persumption. I do not have the guts to ask the same for Europe.. sigh
 

TwoGeese

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I don't have anything to add I just find the discussion very interesting- thank you to those who asked the Yi the question.
 

weiwuwei

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According to paper and notebooks around my house, for the past year since I've been involved with the I Ching, I only got a #23 three times, all unchanging.

The first two times, I was trying to do regular readings like many of you do here, which I don't do anymore since it's too much to think about. (Maybe I'll try doing that again.)

The most recent time involved a wedding a month ago. I am known for getting stressed out at stuff like that, and the previous wedding I went to I got angry with someone and wound up going home, it was ugly. So for this wedding, I thought I'd do the I Ching.

I mentioned having a copy of Wilhelm and and a copy of Huang. Both suggested bad news. However, everything was fine - it was a regular restaurant, not a church marriage, and there were much less people and a fun party inside.

This is the only I Ching reading I have been unable to figure out since I started a year ago. I wound up guessing it was referring to the landform - the restaurant was at the top of a "mountain", but there was a lake at the bottom. (The lake was manmade, if that counts for "earth".) I did go down to the docks to take a brief rest at one point, but I went back to the "yang restaurant party" and had fun through the rest of the evening. And I was not "yin" during the party, I was having fun!

After getting into this site a few days ago and reading Hilary's translation reviews, I just bought the Concordance reissue from Amazon. Maybe that will help me figure this reading out more.

As for Obama:

Huang, who discusses the historical aspect of each trigram, associates #23 with King Wen standing firm in the face of instability among his subjects.

Legge gives a generic political significance - decay and revolution overthrowing a leader, who should remain patient until "political life" is over.
 

Lilly-La

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Hi weiwuwei,

sometimes it is good not to go anywhere with your brain. You were invited to the wedding, you went. Brilliant. You stayed on the ground.
 

esolo

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Depriving the bed of its flesh
Ominous


The natural consequence of unsustainable behavior is extinction of that behavior.
The sleeper awakens to very bad news. Many do not wish him well and carry the
weapons to prove it. There are even a few he thought were his friends, including
his chief of security. They say he was given fair warning about being a greedy rat,
but somehow he needed their envy. If reasons and pleas cannot pierce his covers,
then maybe the knives and swords will. Even as too late as yesterday his fortunes
might have turned. To have given it all away back then was a bargain. Gravity has
the force of a law: you can do many things inside its structure and even find ways
to fly. But gravity now describes this one’s plight, and soon there may be a grave
to sleep in. This is cutting things far too closely: just hope this is only prediction.

Any similarities between this description and what's going on now with Petraeus and other top military leaders?
 

bradford

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Any similarities between this description and what's going on now with Petraeus and other top military leaders?

I wouldn't draw that connection. It's not serious enough. That's just weak men with power and the hot women who hunt them for sport. That's more of a Hex 44 thing.
 

esolo

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Let's wait and see :)

I did find it interesting that you mentioned the "chief of security". That's what Petraeus was.
 

weiwuwei

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a #23...unchanging....I mentioned having a copy of Wilhelm and and a copy of Huang. Both suggested bad news. However, everything was fine - it was a regular restaurant, not a church marriage, and there were much less people and a fun party inside....I just bought the Concordance reissue from Amazon. Maybe that will help me figure this reading out more.

Hi weiwuwei,

sometimes it is good not to go anywhere with your brain. You were invited to the wedding, you went. Brilliant. You stayed on the ground.

R&S came in the mail yesterday. It calls #23 "Stripping" as in slaughtering/skinning an animal, or stripping down to the basics of a situation. Within this context, R&S seems to describe me overcoming something in my life which may have been linked to the incident at the first wedding.

Wilhelm and Huang were both warning "Things might be really bad as the mountain falls down, stay calm". :eek:

I guess it all came down to figuring out which was "Yin" vs which was "Yang"! :rofl:

Now that I have the R&S, which is a concordance, telling the difference between "Yin" and "Yang" in a situation might be easier to understand next time. :cool:
 

bradford

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Let's wait and see :) I did find it interesting that you mentioned the "chief of security". That's what Petraeus was.

My use of Chief of Security there was intentional irony. In 23, those who are high on the hill are kept there only by support from below. The security is in sustainable behavior and the base support. Hence the Da Xiang line about giving generously to those below. The best leader protects the base and his own security takes care of itself. In this line of 23 we have the consequences of flipping this around and protecting only those at the top. The tower loses its base and falls.
 

Trojina

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On this thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=167434#post167434 many questioned the validity of the question saying if everyone asked this question we would all get a different answer.

Yet here no one has bought that up (I don't think) Why ? Why has everyone taken 23 like its the answer when they wouldn't if it were a religious question ?

I wasn't going to comment but wonder why you are all taking 23 as the answer but with a spiritual question such a practise is very much questioned.

The question itself is questionable...as 'the 'future of America' is merely a concept...it doesn't exist in any objective form at all. Each person will have a different future of America.....(.just transposing the objections from the above thread to this one.)

I wouldn't bother except I don't see why the political question is taken so serioulsly over the religious question so my comment here is more to do with the linked thread than wishing to disrupt this one.
 

Trojina

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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the question you had asked, Esolo,but it seemed that although the questions were worded differently, they were essentially the same: both of us were trying to learn more about the implications of Obama's re-election and second term. What it will 'mean for the future of the US' or 'what can we expect' (with an implication of 'for the US in the future') sounded like the same question to me.

I didn't post the answer I received to refute your answer or start an argument about Obama. I put it out there because if they were the same question, there might be something to be learned about how we ended up with such divergent readings. Could I have affected my reading because I've been hoping that without the pressure of a re-election coming up Obama might take more risks? And when you asked, were you maybe feeling some dread about the future of the US with Obama in charge? In other words, did our personal views about the situation affect the outcome of the readings? Was the I Ching not only answering the question but also addressing the more individual (and deeper) feelings that were present when the questions were asked? This is a bit more "Exploring Divination" than "Shared Readings" but could be worth examining....

Miakoda

This answer was every bit as valid as the 23 so why not take this as the answer ? Or indeed anyone elses cast on the future of America.
 

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