The minister and the Sage

jesed · Sep 7, 2006

Hi

The thread with cherrypicka had remember me a little story I wrote some time ago. I'll share it in case it could be of any use
___________________________________________

The young minister searched for the former imperial strategist, who had retired in a monastery several years ago. His worry was the increasing rumor of an invasion from the north border.

- Will we suffer an invasion?. The minister asked
The old man appeared from his tower of observation and answered him:
- I see an enormous army being mobilized from the border; undoubtedly it tries to invade. It would be convenient if you strengthen the frontier guards, gather provisions and organize militarily the villages.

The minister asked: - Which are the intentions of the enemy chief towards me?
- The invader already has penetrated the border, and tries to overthrow the prince. If that happens, you will be a prisoner. It would be convenient if you mobilize the army and move the capital of the empire to a secure zone

The minister returned to ask - There are possibilities that they catch me?
The old man returned to appear, and worried answered - The invading army is devastating already the neighboring villages. The situation is urgent, it is very possible that you would be caught. I would suggest you to withdraw and to cross the Great River, later you could accumulate a major army there

The minister still asked - I must cross the Great River now, or tomorrow with the low tide?
The old man answered - the invader has plundered the capital, flees as soon as possible, because the enemy is coming here.

The minister returned to ask - I must escape for the north hillside, or for the west hillside?
The Elder did not answer, since he wisely had started the retreat; the minister was found by the invader while he continued waiting for the response. And he was made a prisoner.

Confucius said: Knowledge without Wisdom is dangerous

willowfox · Sep 7, 2006

Hi jesed,

very good.

hilary · Sep 7, 2006

I haven't followed the thread with cherrypicka, so I don't know what this is 'aimed' at, but I like the story in its own right. I'm sure I've divined for that minister a few times, and been him.

Trojina · Sep 7, 2006

I have read the thread with Cherrypicka and don't know what its 'aimed' at.

jesed · Sep 7, 2006

Hi trojan

In the way I see it, cherrypicka got a clear answer. The way the thread develop, instead of provide clarity, lead to confusion and avoid the clear initial answer.

Even if I strongly suggest the dialogue aproach to clarify issues, when the issue is clear, one should act according with the clarity and don't distract oneself with further questions.

Best wishes

bruce_g · Sep 7, 2006

Jesed,

That’s the down side of doing readings in an open forum like this, where others have different interpretations. One-on-one readings can be more effective for that reason, plus there’s more intimate contact between reader and sitter.

I personally do not feel that either your reading or Willowfox’s initial reading were correct at all; far to narrow of an answer for the limited amount of information either of you had to work with. Hence all the protesting from others. I felt that you and Willowfox were projecting your own values into the reading – something we all do to some degree – but not usually with such absolute certainty as with your or Willowfox’s interpretations.

heylise · Sep 7, 2006

I just wonder, if Willowfox or Jesed asked an important question and got an answer from a person he does not know, and has no idea how that person got to that answer, would he follow the advice?
The minister went to a sage who he knew was a sage, he did not go to just someone he met accidentally, and anonymous too.
Would be a very dumb minister, even dumber than the one who did not act right away.

LiSe

bruce_g · Sep 7, 2006

I see now, that Jesed is the sage in his story, and Cherry was the foolish minister. Am a little slow on the uptake today.

jesed · Sep 7, 2006

Bruce

1.- Sorry that you misunderstand my comment

I wasn't saying that I'm a Sage, neither that Cherry is a fool

I was saying that the Yi is the sage, and too many questions can made us avoid take action

2.- I have no problem with others interpretations; I had never proclaim have the only truth, neither that I made no mistakes. But I do have problem with not given arguments.
If you think my interpretation is wrong, please give your arguments.

Best wishes

jesed · Sep 7, 2006

Hi Lise

Totally agree with you.

In my personal case (maybe you could see some diference between willowfox and I, not only in the methods and ways to interpret, but in our personalities):

a) When i started to learn, i did search for a trustfull teacher.

b) For the people I'm in personal (face to face) contact, I had always recomended to investigate the experience of people doing interpretation based on the relation interpretation/empirical facts.

c) For people in forums, I suggest to take the time to search previous interpretations, and see (when this can be seen) the accuracy interpretations/empirical outcomes.

In the forum where I belong, there is as a rule that the "fee" is the commitment to return and give the empirical outcome. So, we have 2 sections... "before transition" (interpretations when we don't have the outcome) and "after transition" (interpretations when we do have the empirical outcome). That is very useful for a) learning and b) discern good and bad practitioners.

Best wishes

bruce_g · Sep 7, 2006

Jesed,

I expressed my views on the thread, in case you missed them.

So then, Yi is the sage, your interpretation wasn’t infallible, but there were too many questions? I didn’t see very many questions from Cherry. What I saw were answers given with unquestionable authority, and then a lot of debate and bickering over that. I didn’t see a confused minister either. I saw a rather perturbed minister, though that had nothing to do with the Yi/sage.

jesed · Sep 7, 2006

Hi Bruce

You are right, I missed that you had say my interpretation was wrong, beacuse you wasn't direct but indirect in your post.

"Although I think there are some really excellent responses here from folks on this board, I disagree with those who say 'you are being directed by Yi to do this or that, or to have this priority over that one.' I believe only you can decide that. The advise in Yi’s first answer prepares you to deal with this, but it doesn’t decide for you."

Now, about that

1.- You again interpret that I'm saying the Yi decide instead of the consultant. I had several times say that is not my point of view. The answer clarifies the situation, and even give advice. But the consultant is the one that chose and acts. This is even in the story I wrote. No matter the advice of the sage, the important is the decision of the minister.

2.- You miss my point in that thread. The way Cherry untitle her thread pointed to a question of priority (is really him or the job?); willowfox said that she must resign her job to chose her husband.

In my first comment I suggested her to do a dialogue, to clarify the most important to chose....because she presented the questions as "husband or job"

In my second comment my point was that there wasn't really a question of priority "husband or job" but to examinate separate the question of relationship and the question of job

After she did the dialogue, I definetely disagree with willowfox about resign job to chose husband. I see 2 separate things: marriage problems that can be solved (4>52) and an ascending job that can be dimisih but not quited (19>41)
That clarify the comment of willowfox (as a missleaded comment)...is not about resign job to chose husband... is to solve marriage troubles in one hand, and solw down a little bit the commitment with the job on the other hand.

This is congruent with the initial answer that suggest reinforce the solidarity ties to release the tension (8>40). Since the relationship trouble was in the realtionship and not in her job, I understand that 8 advices about reinforce the solidarity ties with her husband to release the tension in her marriage.

I hope this clarify my point for you

Best wishes

bruce_g · Sep 7, 2006

It does, Jesed. Thank you.

heylise · Sep 7, 2006

Yes Jesed, you always tell what you do, and then it is no problem that the answer is very outspoken. It is part of your way of working, and you are not arrogant about it

Your story just gave a very strange impression. It looked very much as if either Cherry, or the whole rest of us, were the dumb minister. All except Willow. And about Yi being the sage.. the answers sounded more like someone's take on the Yi than like the text of the Yi itself. I never found anything 'absolute' in the Yi, "do this, do not that". Of course many lines say "good fortune" or "bad fortune", but most of the time, IMO, it is an advice. IF you do this, THEN good fortune.

But even with absolute answers I have no problem, if it is said VERY clearly, where that answer comes from. So the querent can decide, if he/she can accept it. It is extremely unhealthy for the mind, to listen blindly to someone else, when you are not absolutely sure, that you can trust that person totally. Either because you know him/her, or because the method is crystal clear, and you can understand it.

But these comments have more to do with Willowfox' posts than with anything you said. It was just that this story was a bit strange.

LiSe

Sparhawk · Sep 7, 2006

Hmmm, perhaps fellow diviners should take a clue from Jeopardy and phrase their answers as "questions". Our brains are more tolerant to questions than to assertions...

L

autumn · Sep 7, 2006

From my own point of view, I agreed with your intepretations. I thought you provided a lot of astute information in a few sentences.

Your frustration about the clarity that was lost in that thread, though, I see as being because of two things. First, she never would directly ask the question that she really wanted to answer. She wanted to know, "should I quit this job", and/or, "should I leave my partner", but she would not ask it directly, thus each new answer failed to resolve the issue. Interestingly, that's a similar behavior pattern to "using a job to avoid issues in a realtionship", which was your initial reading.

But, in my opinion, the second reason why clarity was lost was because of Willowfox's volatile input. Everytime Cherry received a different perspective than Willowfox's, Willowfox would emphatically counter it in another post. She did that until Martin told her she was overdoing it. When he told her that, her response was to become enraged, and ignore feedback.

And yet, if she hadn't been confronted, Cherry might have made the wrong decision. She said she had wanted so much to believe Willowfox she did not question her. She didn't question her until she was confronted, and it was the confrontation that caused the confusion, and the thread to spin out of control.

bruce_g · Sep 7, 2006

sparhawk said:
Hmmm, perhaps fellow diviners should take a clue from Jeopardy and phrase their answers as "questions". Our brains are more tolerant to questions than to assertions...
L

LOL, Luis! That would be interesting. First Yi's answer, and then the question.

jesed · Sep 7, 2006

Hi Sparhawk

There is a spanish guy, who had made a book about the Yi.

It is not a translation, neither a comment.

The way he work is, taking in mind the text and traditional comments of the lines, provide for each line one question for the consultant to reflex in his/her own situation.

That reminds me one principle of the non-directive education: when a student ask you a question, you don't answer it, but return the question to the group until colective knowledge is achieved.

When I can do a face to face reading, I use this aproach a lot.

Unfortunatelly, this work is only in spanish. (I Ching, entre el azar y la posibilidad... something like I Ching, between Chance and Posibility) You can see it in
http://www.librodelcambio.com/

Yes, that is very useful

Thanks

Sparhawk · Sep 7, 2006

Hola Jesed,

Thanks for the link. That's an interesting book and the site is very well organized. I like the guy already: he's got links there to Brad's and Steve Marshall's sites. How he missed Clarity is beyond me...

Chaucito,

Luis

jesed · Sep 7, 2006

Yes, he also provide links to Lise's and Greg's sites.

Another unexplicable ausence is Harmen's site

hilary · Sep 7, 2006

This is something I want to do, too - suggest the question Yi might be asking with each hexagram and line. That's a really elegant site, too - but how do you get to the hexagram lines?

jesed · Sep 7, 2006

uh... you need to buy the book.... (that's the profit of the publisher)

willowfox · Sep 8, 2006

Hello everybody,

My goodness, so many attackers, I am getting rather punch drunk. Is this a hate willowfox week or something?
I am very sorry that my method of divining is not to your liking but you want to know something, I'm happy with it.
Well, autumn, you certainly don't like me, do you? As for becoming enraged, you seem to forget that Martin told me to *piss off*, remember. I was annoyed, yes but also very saddened by all your constant negative attacks. This a witch hunt, and like I said before some of you still seem to be working for the Inquisition.

willowfox · Sep 8, 2006

Perhaps some of the people here should look to see what is happening in their own lifes before venturing out into the world on a fanatical crusade?

luz · Sep 8, 2006

Willowfox,

For the record, this is what Martin said to you:

If my comments piss you off, oh well, so be it ...

He did not tell you to "piss off".

If we can't even "interpret" what we say to each other around here, how can we be in a good position to interpret the I Ching??

willowfox · Sep 8, 2006

It amounted to the same thing, whatever he meant, it annoyed me, okay. Anyway, I don't think that the phrase "piss you off" is a very nice way to express one's feelings about another person on this forum, do you? Very vulgar.

autumn · Sep 8, 2006

Yes, I do like you.

luz · Sep 8, 2006

Again you misunderstand, perhaps on purpose. He was not expressing his feelings about you when he used those words, he was only describing the state in which you seemed to be as a result of his observations. He was just saying, "if this enrages you, so be it.." which is the honest attitude of somebody letting you know what he thinks, for better or worse.

But even if you told me to *piss off*, I still would feel much less attacked than if you told me some of the things you have told other people here. You have gotten more personal than anybody else in this whole thing.

I thought you were doing a good job of reacting with humor before. Humor is perhaps more conductive to self reflection. I am not saying you are wrong and others are right but, when people bring something up about us, I think it would do us good to try to find at least a miligram of truth in their observations. We can always learn from how people perceives us, our words, and our actions.

Sparhawk · Sep 8, 2006

Boy, I miss Pedro...

martin · Sep 8, 2006

Hi Willowfox,

Sorry if "pissed off" came across as rude. I thought it was strong, not rude, but I'm not an English speaker .... Anyway, as Lightangel wrote, I didn't say that you should piss off!

I'm close to being p .. off

myself now, btw, because I'm not used to this Turkısh keyboard and ıf ı'm not careful ıt does sılly thıngs lıke wrıtıng i wıthout dot or worse. İ Çhinğ!
Fwıw, ı lıke your fıghtıng spırıt!

The minister and the Sage

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