Forum rules?

hilary · Jul 9, 2007

In the light of stuff that's come up, this seemed a good thread to start. It's easy to recognise individual cases of things we don't like. It's not in the least bit easy, at least I'm not finding it so, to get from this to a clear, specific, universal rule.

So roll up, gather round, and lay down the law. Also its penalties (post deletion? suspension? banning? visit from men with big dogs?). For obvious reasons I can't promise to implement everything we come up with, but I will pay attention.

If we do find some reasonably unambiguous rules, the next question will be about volunteer moderators.

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

Over the last 6 months or so the issue thats come up over and over that bothers some of us is that predictions are given from an unknown source or a source that isn't recognisable as the I Ching. To say the objection is to predictions as such is a bit problematic as we all do that to an extent in interpreting - but I think some of us are concerned about the definite and specific predictions or strong advice that gives the querant the idea their fate is sealed and there is nothing they can do about it - and worse that they had better follow the advice of the reader.

On the home page here it does say this

Understand where you are now, and you rediscover the power to make changes. This is the heart of I Ching divination. When you can really see into the present moment, all its possibilities open out before you - and you are free to create your future

I like that - to me that seems to represent well what the Yi is consulted for and recent postings - and not so recent - wholly go against that statement by giving the querant they are definately not free to create their future - their future is sealed.

When some of us object to that we have to take it up with the individual concerned and that creates turmoil and maybe an appearance of getting at that person. If there were a basic rule or guideline in place then it wouldn't have to get personal .

But finding such a rule is very difficult yes - maybe we need to pinpoint exactly what the issue or the problem is and agree on that first. For me basic things I have a problem with are to summarise;(with associated problems)

1. Making definate statements about how the future will be regardless of what the querant does
problem here is that some readings kinda do look pretty definate - say like 23 for 'does my marriage have a future' maybe wording is everything but that can't be regulated

2. Giving predictions that are not drawn with any real reference to the I Ching. With Jim it did seem to me that though he says he is using his I Ching it is not the I Ching at all - just creating confusion (esp for newbies) with interpretations that bear no relation
to the hexagrams of the i Ching. Sometimes people bring in other things like tarot/dreams/astrology but mainly thats never been a problem especially if they clearly state what method they are using.

Hmm see rule making or guideline making is not easy - who would want to ban any mention of other divination methods thats too heavy handed I guess

Hmm well I'm struggling here but yes seems theres 2 issues to me in a nutshell - now just have to find a guideline to fit around them - unless we drop the whole idea which is what we usually do

but this time if its dropped seems to me the friends area really does just become a fortune telling parlour and something that would put me off if I was a first time visitor cos its not really giving a true picture or feel of divining with the Yi - and sometimes now I'm seeing querants almost cower as they believe they are being told what to do - and thats going too far IMO

So what do others think might be a good guidleine that is not too restrictive ?

willowfox · Jul 9, 2007

When is something classed as a prediction?

When is something not classed as a prediction?

If there is a grey area here then it will lead to all kinds of problems if there are rules in place about predictions.

Anyway, nearly everyone of us who answers the questions raised here are in actual fact making predictions, in one way or another. If you are unsure, go read what you have written up for people, then you will see most of your answers refer to the future.

hilary · Jul 9, 2007

trojan said:
...To say the objection is to predictions as such is a bit problematic as we all do that to an extent in interpreting...

That's exactly the kind of problem I run into when I start thinking about making rules.

trojan said:
If there were a basic rule or guideline in place then it wouldn't have to get personal .

And that's exactly why I think it's worth looking for such a rule.
(In the past I've tried for rules about not getting personal, with severely limited success - or abject failure, as it's technically known. Maybe a case of treating the symptoms.)

trojan said:
1. Making definate statements about how the future will be regardless of what the querant does
problem here is that some readings kinda do look pretty definate - say like 23 for 'does my marriage have a future' maybe wording is everything but that can't be regulated

Yup. At about this time last year I received Hexagram 23 unchanging about my Mum's health. She died at the end of the month. 23 definitely was how the future would be regardless of what I did.

But there are lots of cases - and whether a marriage has a future could well be one of them - where the cast-iron, 'nothing you do will make any difference' prediction is misleading and could do damage.

Is there any way to turn this issue into a 'rule', or does it have to be a matter of personal judgement?

trojan said:
2. Giving predictions that are not drawn with any real reference to the I Ching. With Jim it did seem to me that though he says he is using his I Ching it is not the I Ching at all - just creating confusion (esp for newbies) with interpretations that bear no relation to the hexagrams of the i Ching. Sometimes people bring in other things like tarot/dreams/astrology but mainly thats never been a problem especially if they clearly state what method they are using.

Hmm see rule making or guideline making is not easy - who would want to ban any mention of other divination methods thats too heavy handed I guess

Agreed, again

. My main desire is for people to 'show their workings' and be clear about their sources. As for what interpretations are and are not the I Ching - you know, I can see problems defining that, too. The Jim Ching does indeed seem remote enough from it to deserve another name. The LoftingChing is also put together on very different principles from the BC original, and departs from it radically at times. Then there are methods of prediction that have nothing to do with the text in the first place.

OK, here's a suggested rule:
"If you would like to introduce a source that's a radical departure from the traditional text, please contribute an introductory article about it to 'Divination Discussion', or a link to more information offsite. And when you use your different source in a post, include a signature file with a link to this article/information."

If the method used is secret and for initiates only, then you could still link to a thread that said so. If you have a site to promote or a book to sell about your method, this should work to your advantage. Either way, discussions about the method, its details and how well it works

would naturally land on this thread, instead of derailing the reading thread.

What snags have I not seen?

hilary · Jul 9, 2007

Hi Willowfox,

We overlapped in the posting. You, Trojan and I have all seen the same problem with trying to lay down the law about predictions as a whole. Now, is there a way to differentiate between predictions that help, and predictions that don't?

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

Yes Wfox I agree thats what i pointed out in my first paragraph - we all do make predictions in a way - and it is a bit of a grey area thats why its hard to make a rule about it.

I am trying to say when one makes a prediction of how something will be as if there were no doubt about it, as if the querant had no choice at all in the outcome - that seems to me to contradict Hilarys statement on her homepage that i quoted above

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

hilary said:
.
OK, here's a suggested rule:
"If you would like to introduce a source that's a radical departure from the traditional text, please contribute an introductory article about it to 'Divination Discussion', or a link to more information offsite. And when you use your different source in a post, include a signature file with a link to this article/information."

If the method used is secret and for initiates only, then you could still link to a thread that said so. If you have a site to promote or a book to sell about your method, this should work to your advantage. Either way, discussions about the method, its details and how well it works would naturally land on this thread, instead of derailing the reading thread.

What snags have I not seen?

Seems a good idea (except some might deny their work was a radical departure from the traditional text) - but overall is a good idea especially for them to be directed to discussion area. If Jim had done this and we could have discussed his work in the discussion area before he launched into giving readings I think everyone would have benefited and it would have been more interesting, rather than creating alot of strife in the friends area.

Re the prediction issue its very difficult - for example for yourself you could understand 23 as meaning your mother wouldn't recover but if a querant asked you about the same situation and got 23 unchanging would you then tell them their mother would not recover ? I struggle with whether that would be a good thing to do - for yourself you know but for others ? Still that is a kind of digression - but overall I think presenting readings as certainties for others is damaging in that these predictions can stay in their minds and affect how they act when they may not even be true.

Making certain predictions on health issues on the forum I always thought was harmful - the power of the mind in recovery being as it is - to say they will take a turn for the worse etc must have a negative impact.

luz · Jul 9, 2007

Maybe there could be two different areas for sharing and requesting readings.
One would be exclusively for the I Ching to share and discuss readings and there could be another area dedicated to all sorts of divinations and also perhaps more in the vein of wanting to get a "reading" (coke machine type), as opposed to trying to understand and learn more about the Yi in the process..

Sparhawk · Jul 9, 2007

hilary said:
Agreed, again . My main desire is for people to 'show their workings' and be clear about their sources. As for what interpretations are and are not the I Ching - you know, I can see problems defining that, too. The Jim Ching does indeed seem remote enough from it to deserve another name. The LoftingChing is also put together on very different principles from the BC original, and departs from it radically at times. Then there are methods of prediction that have nothing to do with the text in the first place.

IMO, if you try to pen the Yi, as in corralling it in a definition, you'll run into big troubles. I have over a 100 different translations and interpretations of the Yi, in English, Spanish, French and Portuguese. Most are just that, "interpretations" of the text. What Jim and Chris, and others, are doing is not different from that and they have all the right in the world to do so and share it with whomever wants to hear them.

The problem at hand is what anybody does with what they learned and interpreted from the Yi. It doesn't really matter if they are W/B purists or if they use a Futurama version of the oracle. The moment you offer an interpretation for somebody that is in need of help, you are responsible for your words and what the other person makes of them. On a personal level, that's why I'm never impressed by anybody that publicly offers interpretations for third parties (sorry Hilary, more on this point below). As I posted somewhere else, unless a big sign for a fortune telling parlor is hung on entrance of the forum, the forum should mostly be used for learning the Yi and its inner workings.

Now, going back to interpreting for third parties, there are a couple of things that get under my skin: 1st, the people that learns to cast the coins or even venture to use stalks to draw an hexagram and the next thing they do is to post the result and expect somebody else to interpret it for them

(geeze, how lazy is that?); 2nd, that they think that by obtaining as many interpretations as possible, in an open forum, they can select the most appropriate for their situation...

I have not problem, whatsoever, for people that doesn't have a clue what the Yi is and come to any one of us, privately, and ask for a consultation. One on one, mano a mano, in private. I enormously respect Hilary's private practice, for example, because I see it as the proper way to proceed.

L

Tohpol · Jul 9, 2007

trojan said:
Yes Wfox I agree thats what i pointed out in my first paragraph - we all do make predictions in a way - and it is a bit of a grey area thats why its hard to make a rule about it.

I am trying to say when one makes a prediction of how something will be as if there were no doubt about it, as if the querant had no choice at all in the outcome - that seems to me to contradict Hilarys statement on her homepage that i quoted above

Yes.

The IC is called the Book of Changes right? Behind all great wisdom teachings one of the core principles is free-will based around the idea that reality operates on a constant ebb and flow of possibilities.

To me, the true art of interpreting what the IC has to offer does not include prediction. It offers future possibilities with some probable outcomes based on the current data. The future, past and and present - in a very real sense - do not exist. It only becomes prediction when folks start to say what WILL be as Trojan mentioned. I think this is limiting in sometimes subtle ways and may invite some unnecessarily hard lessons. I think it's vital that interpretations remain free-flowing. That's not to say that some hexagrams don't mean what they say, otherwise why the distinctions? And sure, sometimes the IC is unequivocal in it's response i.e. - "Go down that path buster and if you remain the way you are - it could be extremely difficult."

It's just that there is so much more to the IC than just fortune-telling. Fortune-telling fixes an outcome in the querent's mind and treats the future as a linear time-line. It is fatalistic rather than open-ended. It's a moment by moment thing - understanding the IC is an art - it has many levels just like the many levels of reality.

There must be a distinction between the psychic fairs and fortune-telling types of interpretations and those which treat the IC as a serious source of knowledge that is inseparable to self-work. That's not some elitist thing - it has to be that way by default. Each augments the other and I'm quite sure the creators of the I Ching did not have it in mind that it should be merely a book to churn out answers and take away our own self-responsibility - then it would be like the "Church of the I Ching."

The ideal is that folks come to share and look for insight and readings about not what WILL be but what MAY be at the time of the question. It's a guide and guides have signposts. And the humility needed to always reinforce that is very often missing from those intent on providing predictions. Signposts offering guidance that can be applied to effect the outcome in the present which more often than not is about what is going within us.

So, ideally, it isn't just about the IC. Real work must surely involve work on ourselves. Separating the two just won't work - or at least the quality of interpretation won't be as wise and thus as helpful. Prediction of the psychic fair variety very often does precisely that: separates knowledge/intellect and runs purely on emotion and subjective feelings - i.e. what we would like for the person according to our own sentiments. Acting respsonsibly in giving and receiving readings surely means we cannot KNOW the future when it is in a constant state of flux. Therefore, we can only provide probabilities and possibilities at the time of the question and REITERATE that fact constantly. If that is absent then it defines the quality of the interpreter.

Thoughts so far - which are open to adjustment!

Topal

mudpie · Jul 9, 2007

think this gets very sticky.......who would be the ones deciding when someone "crossed the line".......one "policeman" might be a german shepherd and another might be a cocker spaniel.

i think an idea might be to have an automatic "disclaimer" attached(by moderators) to posts which were "questionably predictive" or seemingly un-iching.

This disclaimer could read "the above words are the opinion/interpretation of an individual and do not necessarily represent the opinions/interpretations of the many on this forum nor necessarily the I Ching. Please remember that divination is not a science and always lends itself to the personal intuition and understanding of the querent'

or something like that

bruce_g · Jul 9, 2007

Very easy to disagree with how someone else does something, not so easy to tell them it’s against the law to do it. It can be done, of course, but is that the environment we’d all prefer here?

Luis makes a great point, even though I don’t agree on the invalidity of interpreting for another. But maybe I misunderstood what you meant, Luis? Anyway, I believe that every querent has the responsibility to first study their reading from whatever texts they have available, and then to formulate their own ideas of what the reading tells them. That is the price they pay for receiving help from others here. They must tell us what they think the reading means or could possible mean. "I don't know" doesn't cut it. THINK!

Then, let interpreters also think about the querent's ideas, and work from there. Don’t ignore it, don’t shoot it down. Or at least not right off the bat. Let querents think for themselves, don’t try to do it for them.

As for rules, good luck with that, if you want an open and free flowing exchange. Even the most devoted Yi students disagree with each other on what this says or that means, and sometimes in a very unfriendly manner. That’s just life, that’s just living with others. Rules won’t fix the problem. An agreement of ethics will. Besides, no one here has yet to come up with hard rules. Easy to sight problems, not always easy to fix it, and still retain the ambiance or spirit of the forum.

I propose that a “document of ethical conduct” be presented to all forum members. Before someone is granted official interpretation rights, they must agree to the code. The code doesn’t have to be black or white, the way rules would be, but the code will be well thought out and fair. When someone signs and returns the document, they will be held accountable to it, and they then will receive authorization to interpret publicly on the forum. I think administration tools should make this quite easy?

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

bruce_g said:
. An agreement of ethics will. Besides, no one here has yet to come up with hard rules. Easy to sight problems, not always easy to fix it, and still retain the ambiance or spirit of the forum.

I propose that a “document of ethical conduct” be presented to all forum members. Before someone is granted official interpretation rights, they must agree to the code. The code doesn’t have to be black or white, the way rules would be, but the code will be well thought out and fair. When someone signs and returns the document, they will be held accountable to it, and they then will receive authorization to interpret publicly on the forum. I think administration tools should make this quite easy?

I think thats a good idea, a very good idea. I was thinking that rules can create more problems than they solve sometimes and who is to enforce them anyway. A code of ethical conduct is i think what most practitioners of divination do adhere to - well I'm sure astrologers do and in any private consultation (of this kind) I've had the practitioner always has made clear they are not telling me what to do.

So far the only practical rule idea proposed is Hilarys about when someone introduces a very radical departure from the original text - or something that doesn't appear to be the i ching - that it is first introduced in discusson area. Thats a good idea too.

hilary · Jul 9, 2007

I think I agree with pretty much everything Topal posted. These are all ideas I'd abide by in my own readings (hence that paragraph on the home page). And likewise, I discourage people I work for from looking for 'coke machine' readings. Oh, and no, I wouldn't make sweeping predictions of certain death in response to 23, either.

What I can't find, in all this, is a rule, or even a guideline, to apply across the board (pun, sorry).

On the one hand, I wouldn't personally mind having a forum free from heavy-handed fortune-telling (by which I mean what I see as heavy-handed fortune-telling, of course - might not be what anyone else sees). But on the other hand, there are people who want to make predictions, and there are people who want to receive them, and there are rare occasions when such predictions really are called for. And on the other foot, there is the small issue of defining which predictions are and aren't helpful.

So making rules about the kind of reading allowed seems to be a dead end. Listener's alternative approach sounds good: that the prediction should be on offer, but so should an alternative perspective. Maybe a disclaimer, maybe a link to some 'questions to ask yourself when you receive a prediction.'

Question: how might this alternative perspective be offered? One way would indeed be to have moderators reviewing posts, and adding on this text as a 'footer' where they felt it was needed. If we can get enough volunteer moderators.

Could we make it a 'rule' that the original poster include the link/disclaimer? Apply sanctions to those who don't? Vbulletin has this elaborate system of 'infractions', where if you get a certain number of black marks against you, you're suspended, or banned, or however it's set up.

Personally, I find all this distasteful - too close to insisting on a 'party line', and/or adopting a 'nanny state' approach where people must be protected from the readings they, um, asked for. Ugh. On the other hand (or am I onto the second foot by now?), I kind of do want to shift the balance in favour of divination.

I wrote this far and then saw Bruce's post. Back into my burrow to think that one over...

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

sparhawk said:
The problem at hand is what anybody does with what they learned and interpreted from the Yi. It doesn't really matter if they are W/B purists or if they use a Futurama version of the oracle. The moment you offer an interpretation for somebody that is in need of help, you are responsible for your words and what the other person makes of them. On a personal level, that's why I'm never impressed by anybody that publicly offers interpretations for third parties (sorry Hilary, more on this point below). As I posted somewhere else, unless a big sign for a fortune telling parlor is hung on entrance of the forum, the forum should mostly be used for learning the Yi and its inner workings

.

Well what better way to learn than sharing readings with others. Do you propose its better to learn about practical use of the Yi in ones life by poring over a dictionary or just arguing about meanings of characters. I dunno this approach seems a bit precious to me. I think we can learn at least as much about the Yi from real life as scholarly work - scholarly work is important too but to my mind the point of the Yi is to be able to useit .

Now, going back to interpreting for third parties, there are a couple of things that get under my skin: 1st, the people that learns to cast the coins or even venture to use stalks to draw an hexagram and the next thing they do is to post the result and expect somebody else to interpret it for them (geeze, how lazy is that?); 2nd, that they think that by obtaining as many interpretations as possible, in an open forum, they can select the most appropriate for their situation...

No when I've posted a question in the friends area I like lots of differing answers not because i want to choose the one I like most but so that i can get a broader picture of all nuances of the meaning. However some people do just post every single answer they get without thinking it over yes.

But I digress...

bruce_g · Jul 9, 2007

trojan said:
I think thats a good idea, a very good idea. I was thinking that rules can create more problems than they solve sometimes and who is to enforce them anyway. A code of ethical conduct is i think what most practitioners of divination do adhere to - well I'm sure astrologers do and in any private consultation (of this kind) I've had the practitioner always has made clear they are not telling me what to do.

So far the only practical rule idea proposed is Hilarys about when someone introduces a very radical departure from the original text - or something that doesn't appear to be the i ching - that it is first introduced in discusson area. Thats a good idea too.

"The code" would naturally be subjective, not necessarily The Universal Law, or such. A forum owner, and possibly its loyal participants, have the right to determine a code of conduct. This is the only interactive forum I know of which has no such official code. An army must have order, if it's to succeed.

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

I think i like Bruces idea best which could incorporate within it the stuff about what to do if if readings departs hugely from traditional text.

Also it avoids having a party line or an army of moderators.

hilary · Jul 9, 2007

So now I suppose some mug gets to write a draft of this

, and work out the admin/techie side of applying it. (I have a feeling that will be complicated, given the slightly dysfunctional marriage of Amember and Vbulletin that runs membership here.)

Um. I'm out tomorrow, as per usual. I'm seeing a friend on Wednesday, and spending most of Thursday on the phone. I will drop in here as often as I can. I'd welcome suggestions for a 'code of conduct' (guidelines for querents and readers alike), and also how to apply it.

Tohpol · Jul 9, 2007

bruce_g said:
I propose that a “document of ethical conduct” be presented to all forum members. Before someone is granted official interpretation rights, they must agree to the code. The code doesn’t have to be black or white, the way rules would be, but the code will be well thought out and fair. When someone signs and returns the document, they will be held accountable to it, and they then will receive authorization to interpret publicly on the forum. I think administration tools should make this quite easy?

I think Bruce's suggestion for a "document of ethical conduct" would be a big jump forward. However, I wouldn't rule out some form of gentle moderation either. It doesn't have to be too overt...just a gentle jackboot in the behind were necessary...

You don't want a tidal wave of I JIM's cropping up all over the shop - and imo, that will become more and more of a problem in the future. They won't be put off by a document...that document will then have to be "enforced" to a degree.

Topal

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

bruce_g said:
"The code" would naturally be subjective, not necessarily The Universal Law, or such. A forum owner, and possibly its loyal participants, have the right to determine a code of conduct. This is the only interactive forum I know of which has no such official code. An army must have order, if it's to succeed.

Yes agreed - and it could be quite a simple statement

lienshan · Jul 9, 2007

willowfox said:
When is something classed as a prediction?

When is something not classed as a prediction?

If there is a grey area here then it will lead to all kinds of problems if there are rules in place about predictions.

Anyway, nearly everyone of us who answers the questions raised here are in actual fact making predictions, in one way or another. If you are unsure, go read what you have written up for people, then you will see most of your answers refer to the future.

I like your way of answering questions in the Friends Area

bruce_g · Jul 9, 2007

What's happened here is the querent holds the sword.

Sparhawk · Jul 9, 2007

bruce_g said:
Luis makes a great point, even though I don’t agree on the invalidity of interpreting for another. But maybe I misunderstood what you meant, Luis?

I would not purposely invalidate anybody or what they do--to each their own--but I do find distaste in the laziness of querents from using their own brains to discern what the oracle is telling them. I do interpret for others and also offer help when they are stuck on something, so I could not invalidate others that do. My issue is with the delivery... I never do it in public though for the reasons stated above. Public interpretations, IMO, don't teach anything useful but provide a bandaid to somebody that should be getting stitches... (more on that below in another reply)

L

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

bruce_g said:
What's happened here is the querent holds the sword.

Don't understand what you mean Bruce

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

sparhawk said:
I. My issue is with the delivery... I never do it in public though for the reasons stated above. Public interpretations, IMO, don't teach anything useful but provide a bandaid to somebody that should be getting stitches... (more on that below in another reply)

L

But when I'm stuck on a reading I find it really helpful to look it up on the hexagram index and see the various ways that answer has been looked at before. If there were no public readings I couldn't do that.

bruce_g · Jul 9, 2007

Luis, I respect that, and agree with most it. I mean, for myself.

Interpreters can fall into this sense of moral obligation to help, and sometimes to help by giving absolute and concrete answers. That's a form of master/slave relationship, with the slave being the interpreter. Though their head won't be cut off for not helping, their ego may be bruised.

Topal, um, my own view on moderators is, they can be nothing but a pain in the arse. Especially when they carry their own biases into the execution of their moderations, or they're kissing the arse of the system's owner to gain favor: status seekers. And if the moderator is lenient, he or she gets wacked in the head by the more judgmental forum members. I, personally, don't see moderators as the answer.

bruce_g · Jul 9, 2007

trojan said:
Don't understand what you mean Bruce

See my prior post.

heylise · Jul 9, 2007

I agree with those who say this is not about predictions as such, it is about HOW it is predicted. Telling someone he will die is unethical, but telling him going on this way will endanger his life is exactly the same 'prediction', but not unethical. So the important part of it is, like Trojan says,

the definite and specific predictions or strong advice that gives the querant the idea their fate is sealed and there is nothing they can do about it - and worse that they had better follow the advice of the reader.

The way things are now in the friends area do put me off. I have even thought of leaving, but I like Clarity too much. So now I go to the friends area only occasionally when I see that someone I value has posted there. My problem was that I saw answer to querents which were so unethical to me, that I could not be part of it anymore. By coming there, I agree with it. I could not change it, so my only solution was not coming there anymore.

Trojan: 1. Making definate statements about how the future will be regardless of what the querant does
problem here is that some readings kinda do look pretty definate - say like 23 for 'does my marriage have a future' maybe wording is everything but that can't be regulated

Nothing is ever difinite, for a marriage 23 can just as well mean that the couple has to strip their marriage of lots of superfluous or harmful things OR ELSE it will end. Since it is not easy to do that, 23 might very well be the end with 90% certainty.. but never with 100%.

There will always be grey areas, but laws are made for people, not the other way around. Laws or codes or rules are made to protect, not to punish anyone. Besides, we make them for ethics, not for strict rules of behavior, so they will be applied only for that.

I agree with the "code" of ethics and think we could then see what happens. Nothing severe or rigid, just what we can accept as a minimum of ethical conduct, especially in posts to newbies. If some still go against it, we can figure out how much more should be done.
Maybe so short that anyone can post it if he/she disagrees with the ethics of a post. Simply as the next post in a thread. And worded in such a way that it is not at all attacking, only telling the querent how the forum thinks about things.

LiSe

Trojina · Jul 9, 2007

Topal IMO we wouldn't really need moderators if we had a code of ethics just to refer to, it would make things workable I think. Instead of coming over as personal as in 'I don't like your post' we can just point the person back to the statement they agreed to when they joined. Occasionally if things reached an extreme point say with alot of hostility etc then maybe we could ask Hilary to step in - but that would rarely happen I think.

On other forums I hate moderators, I really do - they never let me say anything :rofl:

they seem not only to want to control content of speech but the way you say it too and this is a problem the style of speech varying from country to country. By not allowing any controversy the forums become dull and stale - and I swear some of these moderators sit at home with uniforms on ready to pounce. So if we can manage without moderators I think that would be good

Sparhawk · Jul 9, 2007

trojan said:
Well what better way to learn than sharing readings with others. Do you propose its better to learn about practical use of the Yi in ones life by poring over a dictionary or just arguing about meanings of characters. I dunno this approach seems a bit precious to me. I think we can learn at least as much about the Yi from real life as scholarly work - scholarly work is important too but to my mind the point of the Yi is to be able to useit .

Trojan, everything I know about the Yi comes from using it and from reading as much as I can get my hands on. I've never learned much at all from other's interpretations other than anecdotally information. Mind you, when I started using and reading about the Yi, there was no Internet and I had nobody to hold my hand through the Yi maze.

A person cannot "learn" from others what should come from within. Either you do get a private consultation, if you are in a bind and need help, or dedicate the due time to actually study a whole library of material. Nobody, thus far, has ever claimed the Yijing is an "easy" oracle to learn and the dues must be paid for that. Learning being the keyword here, as opposed to looking for advise, which as I claimed above, should be a private affair.

I am glad you have an opinion on how I use the forum. Yes, what I do in it reflects my personal interests, which is the study of the classic. In all fairness, as stated above, I also have an opinion about what others do of it. If you find the whole approach precious, I respect that. I can forecast though that you will get stuck at a certain level of knowledge whereby, based on what you learned from the interpretations of others, you'll start canning interpretations with your own herbs and interpretive spices. If you are serious about learning the Yi, there is no way to bypass old fashioned, head down on a book, study.

No when I've posted a question in the friends area I like lots of differing answers not because i want to choose the one I like most but so that i can get a broader picture of all nuances of the meaning. However some people do just post every single answer they get without thinking it over yes.

Those nuances you speak of, are mirages... There are no nuances, there are diverging opinions, even if in many cases they do seem to agree with each other. And opinions cannot be averaged like numbers. At some point you (this "you" being generic as it applies to all, from my POV) will make a conscious selection of which parts, of which interpretations, more resonate with your own feelings. And that is very dangerous, specially for somebody that may have a real need for a "real" interpretation of what they obtained.

L

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