In my relatively short time here, I've read several opinions on using the IC to foretell the future. I'm on the fence about this, as I struggle (have always struggled) between the concepts of fate and free will creating one's fate. This is an ongoing debate in my head

This morning, I posted about a very critical court date I have today, of which I'm nervous and fearful as to the outcome. Given my own indecisiveness regarding fate vs. fortune telling, I haven't before attempted to use the IC to get answers regarding the future. Today though, I asked the outcome of this court. I received a pretty positive response.
I'm very curious to hear what the thoughts are regarding using the IC in this manner?

kdedeaux4 said:

In my relatively short time here, I've read several opinions on using the IC to foretell the future. I'm on the fence about this, as I struggle (have always struggled) between the concepts of fate and free will creating one's fate. This is an ongoing debate in my head

This morning, I posted about a very critical court date I have today, of which I'm nervous and fearful as to the outcome. Given my own indecisiveness regarding fate vs. fortune telling, I haven't before attempted to use the IC to get answers regarding the future. Today though, I asked the outcome of this court. I received a pretty positive response.
I'm very curious to hear what the thoughts are regarding using the IC in this manner?

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Hi KD,

I think you should be commended for having the humility to approach the Yi in such a way. I tend to ask the Yi about things which are more process-based rather than the "what will happen...?" kind of question although I do sometimes ask the latter. If you ask about an outcome then I suppose it really depends on your intention. It's a very personal thing. If you are nervous and fearful about this court case outcome then knowing the result beforehand may give you peace of mind or the ability to prepare for negative consequences. Either way, I think in cases like this there's no harm in tentatively asking the Yi for an appraisal imo.

Topal

kdedeaux4 said:

In my relatively short time here, I've read several opinions on using the IC to foretell the future. I'm on the fence about this, as I struggle (have always struggled) between the concepts of fate and free will creating one's fate. This is an ongoing debate in my head

This morning, I posted about a very critical court date I have today, of which I'm nervous and fearful as to the outcome. Given my own indecisiveness regarding fate vs. fortune telling, I haven't before attempted to use the IC to get answers regarding the future. Today though, I asked the outcome of this court. I received a pretty positive response.
I'm very curious to hear what the thoughts are regarding using the IC in this manner?

Click to expand...

I ask the IC in this manner sometimes. I find if an outcome is not known then its quite clear as in one tends to get a 'figure it out for yourself'..or 'not known' type answer. Other times it seems predictive. RE the play between fate and freewill, maybe its just when enough factors are 'in place' regarding an issue the Yi from its perspective can show us. Perhaps there a certain tipping point of balance where a certain event becomes more or less likley. When 'likley' beomes 'certain' I don't know. Also its probably worth bearing in mind we can misinterpret...so even though you get a positive auspice for the case its still wise to do your best (whatever that entails) Whats the muslim saying ...something like "Trust in Allah but tie your camel"

kdedeaux4 said:

I struggle (have always struggled) between the concepts of fate and free will creating one's fate. This is an ongoing debate in my head

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Were you aware that this is Descartes fault, not yours?

Much of what that philosopher wrote was good (we have him to thank for the scientific method amongst other things), but he did make a mistake here and there. Philosophers ever since have wrestled with problems like fate and free will or whether mind and matter are the same or different. They are problems because the conclusion the philosophy points to is patently absurd, but he's such an influential figure it's not easy for people to accept his ideas weren't all perfect.

Martin Heidegger offered a correction to Descartes in 1927, in a book "Being and Time". Following his line of thinking, these issues simply don't arise. This shows they are artifacts of how we see things (our worldview) rather than issues that are there in reality. [So your head is debating an illusion , which might explain why it hasn't found the answer?] Maybe you have heard of Eckhart Tolle (wrote "The Power of Now")? Tolle and Heidegger share the same view. Things like mind/matter dualism aren't a problem for Tolle either.

But in case you can't be bothered to look them up, try this. Why can't it be both fate and free will? Each moment we face a number of possible actions: seeds for several alternative futures. Heidegger suggests "understanding" our situation involves matching each possible action with our current situation to see how good a "fit" it is. There is usually one that fits best. So we face any moment with a propensity to do one thing rather than another; and if we don't rock the boat, that's what will happen. However, we don't have to. We are quite capable of making more effort and choosing a lesser "fit" if we want. Here is "free will", comfortably sitting alongside "determinism".

But back to important stuff . Good luck with your court judgement. I know what it's like. Not pleasant having to face something immovable, out of our hands, yet that powerfully (and intimately) affecting us. At least you'll know. I hope it goes well for you and it will be easy to move forward.

Thank you

Topal: Thank you for your kind words I do try to hold certain wisdoms in reverence and honor and try not to attempt to bend or use them for my own personal "stuff", unless it's regarding my evolution as a human being, but heck, sometimes when I'm just scared, it sure would be nice to have a little peek into the future so I might better prepare myself

Trojan: "Trust in Allah, but tie your camel" ...I love it! That is now my new motto! I'd definitely like to find that elusive "tipping point" so I can make radical last-minute changes (in my fate and/or my choices)

Java: No, I wasn't fully aware of Descartes responsibility in my perpetual debate of illusion, although after you explained it I seemed to vaguely recall a bit of his blame in this. I love reading Eckart Tolle, but haven't gotten to The Power of Now yet. It's on my to-read list though! You made me feel decidely better about being a fence-sitter on this subject (thank you!). It seems when I'm frightened, I somehow feel calmer thinking fate has it all planned anyway and I'm just an actor in the scene. It feels comforting to think all the "big" things might already decided (thus, I'M not responsible) ....and yet, at times feeling powerless is frightening in itself and I prefer to believe more like Tolle, that I choose my destiny and manifest it in every moment. Guess it depends on my state of mind in the moment more than anything...do I wish to feel powerful and in control or do I want someone else to drive for awhile so I can relax and just go with the flow...... I'm wishy-washy with this so I often lean toward whatever feels best at the time. However, I do feel that I need to decide what I believe and stick with that either way, as it's more of a cop-out otherwise And I really like the idea of a little bit of both...now, do I get to choose which is when?

At any rate, thank you all so much for responding! This is a topic that fascinates me, as well as new way of looking at the possibilities of the IC! Court actually went well all things considered, so in that, I now know the IC certainly didn't deceive me this morning, but I also believe my frame of mind (as well as a positive reading from IC perhaps?) may have helped that matter along...
Thank you all again for your encouraging and thoughtful responses!!
~Namaste~

javalava said:

Were you aware that this is Descartes fault, not yours?

Much of what that philosopher wrote was good (we have him to thank for the scientific method amongst other things), but he did make a mistake here and there. Philosophers ever since have wrestled with problems like fate and free will or whether mind and matter are the same or different. They are problems because the conclusion the philosophy points to is patently absurd, but he's such an influential figure it's not easy for people to accept his ideas weren't all perfect.

Martin Heidegger offered a correction to Descartes in 1927, in a book "Being and Time". Following his line of thinking, these issues simply don't arise. This shows they are artifacts of how we see things (our worldview) rather than issues that are there in reality. [So your head is debating an illusion , which might explain why it hasn't found the answer?] Maybe you have heard of Eckhart Tolle (wrote "The Power of Now")? Tolle and Heidegger share the same view. Things like mind/matter dualism aren't a problem for Tolle either.

But in case you can't be bothered to look them up, try this. Why can't it be both fate and free will? Each moment we face a number of possible actions: seeds for several alternative futures. Heidegger suggests "understanding" our situation involves matching each possible action with our current situation to see how good a "fit" it is. There is usually one that fits best. So we face any moment with a propensity to do one thing rather than another; and if we don't rock the boat, that's what will happen. However, we don't have to. We are quite capable of making more effort and choosing a lesser "fit" if we want. Here is "free will", comfortably sitting alongside "determinism".

But back to important stuff . Good luck with your court judgement. I know what it's like. Not pleasant having to face something immovable, out of our hands, yet that powerfully (and intimately) affecting us. At least you'll know. I hope it goes well for you and it will be easy to move forward.

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That is a very interesting grouping of philosophers who names you just dropped.I know a little about these guys.Heidegger I was especially interested in for a few moments,I don't really believe the Nazi branding stuff but I abandoned him before reading being and time because I kind of got the general point filed it for use,and got beyond phenomenology on to Idealism in general.Heidegger seemed from what I could see to basically take Husserls phenomenology and amalgamate it with some type of pseudo Shugendo type practice.But anyway I remember three h names that make the area confusing Hegel Husserl and Hiedegger.I can't remeber but Heidegger's thoughts seemed a little avant garde I might favor Husserl's points though more rigorous and technical if just to get the clear principle out of it.He is the one who started the movement in the first place and taught Heidegger.I have a feeling about Allot of the philosophy that came out of the time from Descartes through till the early 20th century maybe even before him but for certain after him that a great amount of Academic knowledge that we consider to be staple and classical stuff acually was stolen rehashed and inspired by eastern philosophy and thought the occult and Asian thought being considered exotic at those times.For instance Husserls phenomenology smecks of gnostisim.What do you think?
Any way back to the point Master huang says in a section called present information about future potential in his translation of The I ching:"When people Consult the I ching,they want to know their future potential as well as their present circumstances.These two are closely related.We are living in a time of profound change.If we except that every action we take is a cause that has an effect and every effect has a cause,we can more clearly see the results of our actions.The Intention behind each action determines its effect.Our intentions and our actions effect not only ourselves but also others.If we believe the every intention and action evolves as we progress on our spiritual journey,then if we act consciously we evolve consciously,but if we act unconsciously we involve unconsciously.
In this book,each interpretation of the yao is not limited to the present situation .It is associated with the "Approached gua,"which indicates the future potential or tendency.At the beginning of the interpretation of every line,there is information about where the line will lead if it changes."

But I mean I couldn't have said that more clearly and caringly myself if I tried.
By the way
Ye sometimes Descarte seems to let loose a stinker,but I have to say it never ceases to suprise me how prolific he was in general.
\you know Hilary Putnam's multiple relizabilty inline with Luwig wittgenstein's linguist critisms of syntaxual fallacy Javavlava is referring to in general might help take a look at Godels incompleteness theorems for a meta-mathmatic solution.lol.These scientismists positivists realists reductionists and pragmatists are word wizards.Wittgenstein used to turn his back to the people in the Vienna circle and refuse to talk about his book because they got under his skin.

In general, one may cast the Yi upon any question you may choose (or at least think you chose) and get an oracle in response. That oracle is always an instantaneous snapshot describing the perceived state of things at the time of your casting. Even the act of casting the Oracle may make things change overall. Expecting a hard and fast result in the future from an Oracle tends, like all expectations, to be a source of difficulty.

More to the point, you were worried about your court appearance, the Oracle cast settled you some and quieted your fears and in that calmer state the events in court turned out reasonably well for you. That is what an Oracle is all about.

Freewill and Determinism is a medieval Scholastic question that arises mostly from quibbles between those interpreting Scripture as saying humans make their own mistakes vs. those saying that All is known and determined by God. The more interesting perspective upon the Yi is that it deals with the process of human perception in terms of 6 stages centered upon whoever is perceiving rather than abstract, objective conclusions or results of any kind.

Frank

I usually spend my time lurking around the Reading Circle but I feel quite strongly about this, so just thought I'd add my 2c for anyone who doesn't mind a waffle :bows:.

I believe that using an oracle for asking the future can collapse possibilities and I'm not sure that's always a good thing. I didn't always think that way, but I had one experience that made me more definite about it. It happened last year, when I was going through a very difficult time in my life. Someone I trusted offered their help, quite out the blue, with a decision I had to make. Her help was in the form of a Tarot reading. She is not in the habit of offering readings like that, so when it was offered I gratefully said yes because I felt I needed help in seeing what was going on with my life.

The reading was all very accurate ... a card came out showing a decision needing to be made. Apologies for not knowing the card names, I'm not familiar with Tarot, but it showed a woman in between two men as I recall. Apparently the two men symbolised the two decisions. As the reading went on, it showed the death card (that one I do remember!) around one decision, meaning there was no future in it. With the other decision, the cards showed a long and slow process, but one that would reap rewards. I guess one decision was like hex23, and the other decision was like hex53.

I had free will to take the offer of the Tarot reading. I take 100% responsibility for that. However, my vulnerability caused me to not be really thinking straight. In my confusion and hope for some certainty at a time of huge change, I applied the labels 'dead' and 'not dead' in a particular way that seemed to factually make sense at the time to myself and the Tarot reader. Intuitively though, the labels didn't sit with me, they were the opposite way around. That's where the reading confused me. Knowing the way I am, I believe that if I hadn't had the reading, I would probably have eventually gone with my intuition, which was to go with the opposite way of looking at the decisions.

The thing that I would hate anyone else to go through is that I still wonder did I make the right decision . I still wonder how different my life could be now if I'd gone with the other decision, and that's hard, I'll be honest! I'm not blaming the Tarot, it was my decision to agree to the reading. However, I do not want that kind of question mark hanging over me because of an oracle, so I'm now very careful about asking about the future.

In relation to the iChing, my rule of thumb when casting is to think of the hexagram(s) I don't want, and if I really can handle a reading like that. If I feel up to the absolute honesty of the iChing, I'll cast. Otherwise I'll leave it. Sometimes doing that alone leads me into possibilities I hadn't looked at before.

I also must say that the iChing has never ever given me a reading that I couldn't handle, or that I subsequently doubted. Maybe that's also down to how cautious I am since my Tarot experience, but nonetheless, I've used it for insight into many situations since then, and it has never put me wrong.

Applegirl

As the reading went on, it showed the death card (that one I do remember!) around one decision, meaning there was no future in it. With the other decision, the cards showed a long and slow process, but one that would reap rewards. I guess one decision was like hex23, and the other decision was like hex53.

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I would interpret your reading, in terms of Tarot or the Yi as pointing up the problems of taking one's interpretation too seriously and using that interpretation as a substitute for decision making. The Death card doesn't refer to a dead end any more than hex 23 means only current loss. They both refer to a transition to the Next. Hex 23, structurally is exactly that--five open yin places with the only Yang focus being the final line place of the transition from this situation to the next. Similarly, the Death card refers to the Occult notion of death as the transition from the current situation to a new and different one. Toward the end of my first year of law school, a classmate who was having a terrible time getting his studying obsession to work out drew a single Tarot card to the question how does he get onto the Law Review. The next year, when he was on Law Review, he commented to me that he did indeed have to let go totally of all the things he expected the prior year in order to get it together to actually make law review.

Hex 53 (Diamond Cutting or Gradual Progress) also does not guarantee a good result. It represents the opportunity to put all your preparation and effort into some ultimate process which is only assured of showing you what you have accomplished--the diamond may shatter to dust as well as be beautifully cut.

Another way to look at your Tarot judgment is that you sought advice on a major either-or decision and chose to take whichever answer the Tarot seemed to offer you. The psychologists version of this is to suggest in such either-or decisions to simply flip a coin. However, they know better than to just do whatever the coin toss head or tails suggests. They say you will either feel the coin toss solved your issue or you will feel dissatisfied with that option. Clearly, then you want to do the other one.

At this point, all that matters is you continuing doubts that maybe you shouldn't have just done what the Tarot seemed to suggest. One view of this is that if you had serious qualms at the time you would not have just gone with that judgment as noted above the Tarot cards do not state that you had only one good option. You had two, one that would unfold slowly over time and the other that would require that you make the situation all new and different.

What you describe is being in a situation back then, where you accepted your Tarot-reading friends advice including her interpretation and thus did what she suggested was the judgment of the Tarot. If you wonder about if that were a good thing back then, I would suggest the question is not about asking for future outcomes from Tarot or Yi, but of turning over your decision making to friends who offer you that service.

Frank

Hi Frank

I think what you say brings up many pertinent points in relation to what kdedeaux4 was asking. What you correctly picked up on was that due to the stressful situations at the time (5 major life-stressors in 6 months), my decision-making was turned over to someone else. That's what stress can do unfortunately, and I think that at those times of extreme vulnerability, anxiety and stress, one can try and grab for answers, any answers. I think the stress also dulls higher reasoning, so one sees black-and-white answers and one loses out on many subtleties.

In kdedeaux4's situation, the stress was the court case. It is, of course, natural to ask for some clarity, some help in dealing with the situation. However, I think kdedeaux4 is right to wonder about using an oracle in a stressful situation. If a less 'positive' reading was given, would that have added to the stress and caused a different set of events?

Very difficult to answer that one. I think ones own experiences, good or bad with oracles can help decide what's the best course for ourselves in terms of asking about the future. If nothing else, my experience with the Tarot informed me about my own practice and has led to a deeper appreciation of my relationship with the iChing.

And talking about the experiences with like-minded people of course helps :bows:

Applegirl

applegirl said:

Apologies for not knowing the card names, I'm not familiar with Tarot, but it showed a woman in between two men as I recall. Apparently the two men symbolised the two decisions. As the reading went on, it showed the death card (that one I do remember!) around one decision, meaning there was no future in it. With the other decision, the cards showed a long and slow process, but one that would reap rewards.
...
I applied the labels 'dead' and 'not dead' in a particular way that seemed to factually make sense at the time to myself and the Tarot reader. Intuitively though, the labels didn't sit with me, they were the opposite way around.

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I'm surprised your reader let you think that, as it is a notorious beginner's mistake. In the Tarot, the 10 of swords is a "death" card in the ordinary sense. The Major Arcana 13 (Death) card is more about normal though radical change. (Contrasting with the Tower as disastrous radical change.) You should be encouraged that your intuition was good .

See aeclectic.net for a short, but good description. Or for a more authoritative (?) account the American Tarot Association is rather longer.

applegirl said:

I still wonder did I make the right decision . I still wonder how different my life could be now if I'd gone with the other decision, and that's hard, I'll be honest!

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Yes. Isn't that a terrible feeling! Especially when things get you down and you can't sleep...

Martin Seligman talks about three kinds of happiness: the pleasurable life, the good life and the meaningful life. In my opinion we only miss fleeting pleasures when we take wrong paths like that. The "flow" or engagement that comprises the good life can be found in many things, and is a function of us more than our surroundings (IMO, no evidence here). The meaningful life is the longest lasting, and concerns contributing to something greater than ourselves. Again, I have no evidence, but it does seem that if there was something you were "meant" to do, things conspire to get you doing it some other way.

In other words, even mistakes don't matter in the long run.

Just by sheer coincidence, if you want to call it that, this morning the SciFi Channel had a marathon of "Tales from the Darkside" and they showed an episode called "In the Cards"

Looked for it in YouTube. It is here, in three parts:

1st part
2nd part
3rd part

Javalava, thanks for the links ... they're good reference. I like the way the aeclectic Tarot describes the story. I'd never known it was like that. I agree about the death/change thing - it's something I'd heard before about the death card, but I guess being inexperienced and confused at the time, I trusted that in the situation, the reader was interpreting appropriately, and I trusted that her literal interpretation was the correct one . Yes, sleepless nights agogo last year .

Thanks for the link to Seligman - I'm going to watch it when I'm fresher. Am very interested in positive psychology. Love TED . Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi also talks about how it's important not just to study dysfunction in psychology, but to study the higher states, happiness, fulfilment etc. His point is that the more we understand them, the more we can try and include ways of achieving them, say in education etc.

About the mistakes not mattering in the long run ... it's a comforting thought, thank you :bows:.

Luis ... I'll have a look at the videos when it's not dark outside, and I've my necklace of garlic around me. I'm a big scaredy cat and I got 37 seconds into the first part before the creepy voice and menacing background music got the better of me .

Now, back to thinking of puppies, cushions, strawberries and ice-cream as an antidote

Applegirl

Apple girl,

I'm very sorry to hear of your bad experience with a tarot reading. I tend to agree with you in a few areas. Like you, I hesitate to ask "future" related questions because I fear that my "answer" will then somehow affect that very response. Fate or free will....I do believe our own perceptions and energies strongly influence most situations and thus, we definitely need to be careful with projecting into the future, either with thoughts, beliefs, whatever... And, ironically enough, the times when we're most anxious about the future ("stressful times") are the very times we tend to seek answers and our fear itself can open us to creating the very thing we fear, which can be added to or exasperated by a "negative" future prediction. This is the very reason I try to use the IC to help me see and understand more about myself, as opposed to the future, in hopes that I can be well informed with a broad perspective and hopefully then make the best choices for the situation. Although, I can attest to the fact that I used it in this situation (from anxiety and fear) trying to get an idea of the possibilities of what was going to happen, to prepare myself in a way. It answered positively and it was a fairly positive experience....so it was an accurate assessment of the "future" in this case, but was that just my high hopes from the positive IC response, leading to a positive experience? Or was that just good "fate" doing what it was going to do anyway.....? Wonder what would have happened if IC had responded negatively? Whole different outcome? Or just an expression of my own anxieties and fears? Our vulnerability in stressful times can leave us open to expecting the worst anyway and add to that a frightening tarot reading (!!), which can then easily create a self fulfilled prophecy. However, the one thing I have learned for certain is that the past is the past. On any choice you can beat yourseld up forever with that "what if's"...and miss out entirely on the what's actually happening that's good and the choices that we still have ahead of us to shape our future yet to come....
Anyway, as I said, this is a fascinating/reflective topic for me, so I had to add my 2c as well Just try not to beat yourself up too much over the "what if's"... those are serious energy zappers!! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences!!
xoxo ~Namaste~

kdedeaux4 said:

Like you, I hesitate to ask "future" related questions because I fear that my "answer" will then somehow affect that very response. Fate or free will....I do believe our own perceptions and energies strongly influence most situations and thus, we definitely need to be careful with projecting into the future, either with thoughts, beliefs, whatever... And, ironically enough, the times when we're most anxious about the future ("stressful times") are the very times we tend to seek answers and our fear itself can open us to creating the very thing we fear, which can be added to or exasperated by a "negative" future prediction.

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Yes, couldn't agree more! I believe in our own free will, but we can project our fears onto situations and that can cause a narrowing of our vision of what is possible. As I've gone through life I've become more inclined to believe that we have our own free will. I believe this because I guess I have to, having been in the process of building a very different life for myself in the past year and a half. If I felt like I was a passenger, I'd feel helpless right now, and at the moment I really need to feel like I'm driving .

kdedeaux4 said:

This is the very reason I try to use the IC to help me see and understand more about myself, as opposed to the future, in hopes that I can be well informed with a broad perspective and hopefully then make the best choices for the situation. Although, I can attest to the fact that I used it in this situation (from anxiety and fear) trying to get an idea of the possibilities of what was going to happen, to prepare myself in a way. It answered positively and it was a fairly positive experience....so it was an accurate assessment of the "future" in this case, but was that just my high hopes from the positive IC response, leading to a positive experience? Or was that just good "fate" doing what it was going to do anyway.....? Wonder what would have happened if IC had responded negatively? Whole different outcome? Or just an expression of my own anxieties and fears?

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This is the way I also use the iChing. I find it profoundly truthful, yet gentle with me! I feel that I've grown through using it. It has opened me up to subtleties in situations where I would not have seen those subtleties before. It's also unbelievably accurate when describing situations. It's as you say, it opens up possibilities, broadens ones perspective and that allows the person to make a more informed decision.

Like you, I'm iffy about asking about the future, but I think I'd trust the iChing. Maybe that's why you went ahead with the reading? Maybe you felt like you were prepared for the iChing's honesty, either way. The fact that you acknowledge the subtleties and how serious engagement with the iChing opens up possibilities, well that would have stood to you even if your reading was not as outwardly positive.

kdedeaux4 said:

Our vulnerability in stressful times can leave us open to expecting the worst anyway and add to that a frightening tarot reading (!!), which can then easily create a self fulfilled prophecy. However, the one thing I have learned for certain is that the past is the past. On any choice you can beat yourseld up forever with that "what if's"...and miss out entirely on the what's actually happening that's good and the choices that we still have ahead of us to shape our future yet to come....
Anyway, as I said, this is a fascinating/reflective topic for me, so I had to add my 2c as well Just try not to beat yourself up too much over the "what if's"... those are serious energy zappers!! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences!!

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Thank you too for the discussion :bows:. I think you're so right about having to look at what's actually happening. I think this is part of the human condition, looking at the past and future at the expense of the present .

Best of luck!

Applegirl