Inferior Superior

unsubscribed_cm · Dec 10, 2010

The Yijing seems to give the inferior person slack. There are a some lines in the text that when change advocate one thing for the superior and give another line for the inferior.

What does this mean? I kind of like to see the Yijing as almost an interpretation of the laws of nature designed by God. But why would there be greater slack given to a inferior than the superior? Is it just lower standards?

In that case what does it mean that the inferior people get along with more ease than the superior?
There are lines of course where the inferior person is at the disadvantage - but usually the superior has to bear an extreme inequality of burden for his position.

I find it frustrating that the inferiors are so well tolerated - but the superior held to such demands and standards.

I guess what i'm getting at is - what does it mean to be inferior? Do you life an inferior life by some measure? Because at occasions it is clearly easier to be inferior than superior according to the Yijing. What does it mean to be superior?

bradford · Dec 11, 2010

The Yijing doesn't use those words. Translators do.
Noble (jun), great (da), common (xiao) and bad (fei) are the words the Yi uses.
You should remember that the Yi arose in the royal court and higher standards are indeed set for the nobility (noblesse oblige).

yamabushi · Dec 11, 2010

bradford said:
The Yijing doesn't use those words. Translators do.
Noble (jun), great (da), common (xiao) and bad (fei) are the words the Yi uses.
You should remember that the Yi arose in the royal court and higher standards are indeed set for the nobility (noblesse oblige).

Most edition use two words; higher and lower person. I newer find the word common...

bamboo · Dec 12, 2010

the road always gets more narrow as one progresses. e.g... in line 20.1 , what may be tolerated in a person with little insight and experience is not at all acceptable for one with a broader understanding. It isn't easier to be "inferior", but you do have more leeway for error

sooo · Dec 12, 2010

Bamboo's siting of 20.1 seems to match Wilhelm, who uses "common people" in his commentary. He also uses "common man" in 43.3. Pretty sure Brad or someone will be along to point it out in the text.

I tend not to apply the terms to separate beings but to ones own potential ways of being.

Bamboo's idea that the way narrows as more is expected as one matures, is interesting. I could also visualize it narrowing too much, ie: narrow theology, narrow mindedness, plaque build up, hardening of arteries and brain cells, cells in general, stiff joints, etc.

And yet it's true, better is expected from those previously proven to be better than they sometimes are. We set our own standards, and then have to live up or down to them, or be common and do whatever gets us by. I can think of times when each is a viable option. Trying too hard usually results in poor performance, so a certain relaxed "common man" attitude may be the best fit for an occasion. On the other hand, I can't think of a good occasion for fei ren, other than perhaps to temper da ren.

unsubscribed_cm · Dec 12, 2010

"It isn't easier to be "inferior", but you do have more leeway for error"

I guess that makes sense... Almost a non-dualistic way of seeing it.

You have more slack simply because you are more erratic thus your average is lower. But not that since your inferior you have more freedom.

I assume they suffer for their inferiority... just as superior people probably have joy for their superior virtue. The dream is more mundane versus novel...

I've just been contemplating those who do wrong and what the universe does to uphold that justice. I notice it when God is disciplining me... usually - But I never notice it when God is disciplining others. Especially after I have been mistreated...

I frankly see the Yijing as more cosmic law, not some petty thing for high class people to look at lower class people. This is divination... so I see it as not some petty social mores or customs - one is supposed to be talking to GOD here.

I think that the words may be fei ren and da ren in chinese language... but I don't think Wilhelm's use of inferior superior is a wrong branding of words. I think the idea is that we are talking truly inferior and superior here - and the whole book of changes is written to convey the way of the superior - not petty social class or customs.

I see that the Yijing gives special moments in time to the inferior - hexagram 23, 43, 36. Where they get to really burn if not destroy the superior.

Then there are some difficult hexagrams: 3,44,47,18,9,6,10,12,28,62,29,33,38,39,54,

I guess i'm just looking for the good in these dark times...

... dunno where I'm at though.

I haven't divined in over a year. But I digress...

rodaki · Dec 12, 2010

that's a great discussion . . .

I'm of the opinion that the more we progress the way opens up and the horizons become bigger . . does that mean more complexity and decisions more intricate? yes, I think it does. Does it mean we have to narrow our perspective? not necessarily . . If we usually do, if it appears that way, it is because things take form according to a state of balance -that 'cosmic law' you mention, although I would call it 'necessity' rather than 'law' . .
A decision made in view of a wide expanse will feel more narrow than a decision made in view of a circumscribed area . . our point of view and the distances we set make a hell lot of difference imo.

Btw, you can cut yourself some slack by opening up your own ideas of 'superior' 'inferior' . . Texts like that of the IChing are great because we can use them as mirrors of our thoughts, rather than a narrow set of rules.
In 'being disciplined', 'punished' 'rewarded', 'retributed' or what have you, you paint for yourself a universe where you are perpetually the moral slack that looks up to Father/Mother to put them right . . changing your perspective on that will probably mean that you'll be opening the door to a richly different landscape of interpretation . . different meanings -and realities- arise because we stop then and there to look for punishment or retribution, and turn towards looking for deeper understanding of ourselves and our needs . .

does that feel harder internally -or even externally- sometimes? yes it does imo

does it offer wider chances of reaching a place of understanding and compassion? yes, again, imo

does that place ever become a given? nope, not a chance! always imo

sooo · Dec 12, 2010

There is (hypothetically) a moment in every day when I am faced with making the decision: How am I today? I think the tie to the question of high/medium/low thinking is pretty apparent.

So, I asked Yi: What do you call that moment when I choose my mood (and thereby my level of operation)? 49

bamboo · Dec 12, 2010

rodaki said:
that's a great discussion . . .

I'm of the opinion that the more we progress the way opens up and the horizons become bigger . . does that mean more complexity and decisions more intricate? yes, I think it does. Does it mean we have to narrow our perspective?

yes, I think we say the same thing. the horizons open enormously for the progressed, the benefits multiplying. however, to reap the benefits, more skillfullness is required.

the narrowing of perspective, or arteries for that matter, is probably more a result of failing to navigate the keener challenges .....the arteries of children stay clear without effort - even in spite of inferior habits- but more diligence is required with age

a novice skier can enjoy the bunny hill and nobody really minds the frequent tumbles and awkward moves. but a seasoned athlete will take on greater and greater challenges, requiring a dexterity and skill one would never dream to see on the Bunny HIll!! In the same way, even a well-preformed but very average run is not likely to garner any praise.

heylise · Dec 12, 2010

There is another 'superior-inferior': in social classes, like king vv farmer, also a kind of superior and inferior, but not necessarily meaning that one is better than the other. I think Yi refers very often to that.
A king has to answer to more complicated demands than a farmer, and a wrong decision reaches farther.

Many images in the Yi are literal. We apply them to our own circumstances which are entirely different. The message can still be the same though.

bamboo · Dec 13, 2010

sooo said:
So, I asked Yi: What do you call that moment when I choose my mood (and thereby my level of operation)? 49

that's really interesting. and it takes a certain level of being to be aware of the choice.

I remember very well that as a young person, my moods decided for me. my level of being was entirely determined by my moods

a supremely "inferior" way to live life.
I realized that not only could I choose my level of functioning, often in spite of my moods, but that I was ultimately responsible for doing this. When you choose, you transform, and then the moods obediently follow ( sooner or later ) and beyond that, the course of your life is also transformed by the very same, seemingly small, daily choice.

It seems like the more one becomes empowered by the awareness of their own power to choose/create, the more powerful the tool becomes. small transgressions are likely to bring what seems like swift "punishment"...as well they should, so that the path is corrected.

interesting too that the Yi is literal perhaps in referring to the caste system, but that it is also relevant to our internal states of being. I think America, for an example, was founded on the principle of leveling the playing field...a new kind of human community where one's status in life could be determined by the individual, not by birth or things one had no control over. There was no inborn "nobility" nor commoner status, per se.

and, referring to your post in another thread, Cyclon, what if "fate" could be decided by a very simple but consistent daily choice?

rodaki · Dec 13, 2010

bamboo said:
yes, I think we say the same thing. the horizons open enormously for the progressed, the benefits multiplying. however, to reap the benefits, more skillfullness is required.

the narrowing of perspective, or arteries for that matter, is probably more a result of failing to navigate the keener challenges .....the arteries of children stay clear without effort - even in spite of inferior habits- but more diligence is required with age

a novice skier can enjoy the bunny hill and nobody really minds the frequent tumbles and awkward moves. but a seasoned athlete will take on greater and greater challenges, requiring a dexterity and skill one would never dream to see on the Bunny HIll!! In the same way, even a well-preformed but very average run is not likely to garner any praise.

I was thinking about that and I think we were saying the same thing up to a point. I'm not so sure about the bunny hill because I don't ski but I think our personal narrow parts get set as such because we think that children get by by just being children, when, at least to my mind, the child is essentially hardly different to the adult it makes, and the narrow points the adults will fall at -as everyone will- are probably those very same they never made by as youngsters. Not that they cannot be conquered, but where we fall at, it's probably gonna be the same worn out setting . . on the other hand not assuming grand differences does leave more chances to overcome the narrow space both as kids and as adults. In fact, it could be that, even as adults, it is the kid in us that needs and does go through the narrow pass -if and when it does . .

just thinking out loud . .

sooo · Dec 13, 2010

bamboo said:
what if "fate" could be decided by a very simple but consistent daily choice?

There was quite a long time, when I thought such exercises unnecessary, and indeed the work of an inferior: to be so concerned with such a transient question as "how am I?" It was care for and of another that made the question relevant, and thus no longer inferior.

Or with a career or job. One can be a superior beginner, and indeed they are what management looks for. One can be an inferior in a superior position, or a superior in an inferior position. Highly subjective sometimes, but objectively true at others. No wonder it can sometimes make applying these attributes in a reading daunting. I.e, 8.3 - what wrong people (fei ren?) does it refer to in a given instance? Those people in ones own self, including the shadows we project onto others, or are there literally people who harm us that we are holding to? Depends, of course.

Another example is 13.2, where fellowship in the clan can be easily literal, or it can refer to the clan as your own familiar way of thinking, being and becoming. In either case, staying within those confines is regretful and leads to humiliation. Then when someone asks "how am I?" they can say "I feel humiliated." But only because one wasn't creative enough (13.2 changes to 1) to think, and therefore grow outside their box, their clan of familiars.

rodaki · Dec 13, 2010

CyclotronMajesty said:
I think that the words may be fei ren and da ren in chinese language... but I don't think Wilhelm's use of inferior superior is a wrong branding of words. I think the idea is that we are talking truly inferior and superior here - and the whole book of changes is written to convey the way of the superior - not petty social class or customs.

I see that the Yijing gives special moments in time to the inferior - hexagram 23, 43, 36. Where they get to really burn if not destroy the superior.

Then there are some difficult hexagrams: 3,44,47,18,9,6,10,12,28,62,29,33,38,39,54,

I guess i'm just looking for the good in these dark times...

... dunno where I'm at though.

I haven't divined in over a year. But I digress...

I think one of the things that can make the superior/inferior division so unnerving, or even dispiriting, is the strange fact that it seems to fit much too well with our inferior, hunger-stricken parts, contrary to what we would logically expect. And in many ways this distinction, as any other case of categories, rests on perfectly solid, good grounds. It's how we create a stable universe in which to live and prosper, how we protect ourselves from danger, how we build communities, form opinions, make assumptions, formulate decisions. And still, despite all that, it can reach a point where it gnaws at the very thing it helped establish . . how come?? It makes me think of parental love that carries within it a capacity so pervasive that can easily capsize into the opposite of what it's supposed to be (although that often feels too much of a taboo to discuss). . like every great, superior faculty we have access to, carries within it the way of its distortion, just like that, a paradoxical way of the need for balance.

That double bind though is no reason to not apply it -besides I doubt we could achieve anything without its incentive- so we continue making distinctions, making assumptions, putting things in categories, children in the playground of naivete and grown-ups in the run for competent performance, it's how things work and how we manage; and we tend to forget the ways simple distinctions have of distorting themselves and all about paradox. How, for example, exercising or parading power is in fact a sign of frailty, how vulnerability, or humiliation is the ground from which we can grow in veritable strength, how an adult that grows into childish innocence has probably had to pay too steep prices before even dreaming of it, hence they wear it so close to the skin, and you know, all these details that remind us how life is multi-dimensional and multi-directional and often goes against the grain . . .

anyway, I'm obviously rambling . . Maybe it's because I just spent three days grading kids, some of whom have had experiences I have escaped for good -or not- and in the short breaks I take from being productive I wonder what is it that makes me capable of tagging them a number -any number- and a characterization and if the sheer, monolithic force of me having concrete experience that doubles their years -while still a baby in broader terms- entitles me to pen their quality -even in a rudimentary way . . who's really the superior between me and them, and why?

anyway, Cyclotron, I probably digressed too . .

unsubscribed_cm · Dec 15, 2010

Yes it is difficult to know what is superior and inferior.

After reading and working with the Yijing, it is possible to realize true measures of what is superior and inferior. It's almost like teaching someone or being taught about right and wrong

This is what the Yijing assists in, for by our own faculties alone, our own desires, passions, we cannot fully understand what is good and bad for us or anything else. We will often remain on a animal level of consciousness - following that path.

One must get a higher view, see the bigger picture, understand.

Inferior people do indeed suffer. The inferior influences if feed and followed, lead one to inferior states of being which are well - inferior. One may enjoy a temporary recess, and even profit from the various inferior ways, domination, parasitism, destruction etc. but things will still change.

The Yijing as I've practiced it - has been an attempt to find the Tao.
I've often gotten frustrated by it's ambiguity, and never been totally sure if I've understood. Some readings take years to understand... and one can never be too sure of how well one really is understanding, I think.

But it's defiantly given me allot. It's a pretty amazing book. We are all lucky to have it.
Lucky it didn't get eradicated with all the book burnings in history...

sooo · Dec 15, 2010

There's a story of a black wolf, who figured out while still young, that it was to his advantage to not compete for status within the pack. He was happy no matter what he was doing, and that to him meant being inconspicuous. He was usually off somewhere, completely absorbed in something or other. Certainly not pack leader material; a fact he not only was comfortable with, but chose. Why assume all the hassles that come with being a pack leader? he wittingly surmised; I shall enjoy my youth forever! But as time moved on, he no longer was given the choice. He was now the eldest, and others respected his ability to survive intact, and it was for this reason they followed him, they with their cubs. He left to make his territorial rounds one day, and never returned.

anemos · Dec 15, 2010

sooo said:
Trying too hard usually results in poor performance, so a certain relaxed "common man" attitude may be the best fit for an occasion.

I can relate to that.

Couple of weeks ago I had an operation so nowdays I try to walk again. the first days pain didn't let me walk long distances but one day feeling better and under a stronger painkiller I walked a very long distance , I rised the expectation of myself , ingoring in a way the advise of the physiotherapist. I did it but the next day my performance droped significantly and I could hardly do the daily exercise.

I think , sometimes great or common has to do with which face we have to confront a situation. sometimes ask to be great, sometimes common. its hasn't to do with ourselves , our personality in general , but how a specific time we respond to something.
I see hex 35 & 36 in this discussion. Being able to feel confortable in an inferior place is greatness, imho

charly · Dec 15, 2010

anemos said:
I can relate to that.

Couple of weeks ago I had an operation so nowdays I try to walk again. the first days pain didn't let me walk long distances but one day feeling better and under a stronger painkiller I walked a very long distance , I rised the expectation of myself , ingoring in a way the advise of the physiotherapist. I did it but the next day my performance droped significantly and I could hardly do the daily exercise.

I think , sometimes great or common has to do with which face we have to confront a situation. sometimes ask to be great, sometimes common. its hasn't to do with ourselves , our personality in general , but how a specific time we respond to something.
I see hex 35 & 36 in this discussion. Being able to feel confortable in an inferior place is greatness, imho

Hi, María:

Glad that you are already recovering.

All the best.

Charly

rosada · Dec 15, 2010

We're going to be looking at hexagram 17. Following next over on the I Ching Book of Merit thread. Hexagram 17. seems to have a lot to say about recognizing and following the strong man and not the little boy. The fact that a whole hexagram is devoted to this task seems to confirm this is not a simple challenge.

-rosada

anemos · Dec 15, 2010

charly said:
Hi, María:

Glad that you are already recovering.

All the best.

Charly

thank you Charly

sooo · Dec 15, 2010

rosada said:
We're going to be looking at hexagram 17. Following next over on the I Ching Book of Merit thread. Hexagram 17. seems to have a lot to say about recognizing and following the strong man and not the little boy. The fact that a whole hexagram is devoted to this task seems to confirm this is not a simple challenge.

-rosada

Gaining the strong man and losing the young boy is not always a good thing. There's good and poor ti ming for each.

charly · Dec 15, 2010

“My Father is Li Gang!”
has become the most popular catchphrase in the Chinese Internet in the past few days.

First of all, you may ask, who is Li Gang? Li Gang is the deputy director of the police department in the northern district of Baoding city, Hebei province.

On October 16, a car accident took place in Hebei University, which led to the death of a female student. According to eyewitnesses, the car knocked down two girls who were riding roller on the school campus, but the driver did not stop and continued to drive to the female dormitory to drop off his girl friend. In the end, the school security guards and students blocked the entrance of the school gate and demanded the driver to get off the car. Instead of showing any sign of remorse, the driver, Li Qiming, yelled out to the angry crowd, “Go ahead and sue me, my father is Li Gang!”

From: Global Voices
At: http://globalvoicesonline.org/2010/10/22/china-my-father-is-li-gang/

No comments.

Ch.

rosada · Dec 15, 2010

Amazing, Charley.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I googled for more information and I see that there have been songs and poems posted all over the web about this but the students who witnessed the incident have been warned not to mention it. It's like this generation's Tiananmen Square.
Rosada

charly · Dec 17, 2010

sooo said:
Gaining the strong man and losing the young boy is not always a good thing. There's good and poor ti ming for each.

Hi, Bruce:

17.2 says:

係 xi4: tie up / bind / relation /
小 xiao3: little / small / tiny / few / young /
子 zi3: son / child / seed / egg / fruit /small thing /

失 shi1: to lose / to miss / to fail /
丈 zhang4: elder / senior / husband /
夫 fu1: husband / man / master /

MDBG says:

小子 xiao3zi5 = boy / young fellow / (derog.) chap
丈夫 zhang4fu5 = husband

I believe that it sounds like a folk saying about LOVE and MARRIAGE instead of about children and adults.

Bound young fellow, lost husband.
Having a crush on a guy, losing a husband.

There is even the possibility that XIAOZI and ZHANGFU be the same person or the same personified thing.

Yours,

Charly

superman · Dec 29, 2010

CyclotronMajesty said:
This is divination... so I see it as not some petty social mores or customs - one is supposed to be talking to GOD here.

Big assumption right there. Do you have any evidence or proof that GOD is at the other end of the line? :rolling:

sooo · Dec 29, 2010

I still don't know who he/she/they/it is. Whoever it is has a big sense of humor and instantaneous answers. I timed it, to see if I could ask faster than it could answer, and found no time between the two.

Trojina · Dec 29, 2010

superman said:
Big assumption right there. Do you have any evidence or proof that GOD is at the other end of the line?

LOL do you have any evidence or proof that fallen angels kllled the woman in this thread ? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=11830

also you were advising us to take heed of the bible in that thread ?

superman · Dec 30, 2010

trojan said:
LOL do you have any evidence or proof that fallen angels kllled the woman in this thread ? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=11830

also you were advising us to take heed of the bible in that thread ?

Ok, so I am writing this post to express, beyond any doubts, my opinions on who is at the other end of the line when we choose to use the Iching as a divination tool. Do not take ithis as a personal attack on anyone. This is just FYI.

--------

When we do an Iching reading, we're essentially saying, "I want the answer now!"

Notice how the ego ("I") is present at the onset.

The next thing is, we choose to either toss some coins or yarrow sticks.

Notice who is behind that behavior, once again. We're essentially saying to the universe "I want the answer in this medium or that medium". In effect, we're trying to exert some *control* over the process of divining for a solution to our *problems*.

Next, we *choose* the time and place most convenient to us to do a reading.

We choose, we choose, we choose! It's the same ego ("I") that is present throughout. (Remember, it's the ego part of us that always wants to exert *control* over our external environment).

Now, get this: We then expect *God* to be on the receiving end catering to our egos, doing all the hard work (such as looking forward and backward in time and analyzing every little itty bitty details of our life) to spit out an answer for us.

Do you honestly think, beyond any doubt, that *God* would be all that eager to do the ego, our egos', biddings? Now do you see who is at the other end of the line, when our very own ego is self-satisfied with being the *Master* of instant gratification -- when our own ego is consumed with an itching question that needs to be scratch with an Iching reading subject to our own terms and conditions?

Besides, where's all the fun in all of that? Why not, instead, *choose* to let God/the universe surprise us by allowing His/its messages to come to us of its own accord and time? (All we need to do is realize that there is a problem we may not be able to solve on our own, but let the universe have some fun suggesting some solutions and insights for us). And jjust ash importantly, why not let the message choose its own medium to express itself, instead of allowing our own egos to paint it into a black and white box, coins or yarrows?

Inferior Superior

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