Interpreting 4 or more Changing lines?

tifa · Dec 20, 2010

Hello everyone,
this might sound a little silly. How do you interpret 4 or more changing lines?

Do you interpret the changing lines by:
A) Read all changing lines on Primary Hex?
B) Read the unchanging line(s) on Primary Hex?
C) Read the unchanging line(s) on Resultant Hex?

I have read about multiple changing lines here: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/consult/mml.php

But with all choices to choose from, erm, which one to go with?

Would be lovely to hear your thoughts about this. THanks!

Tifa
P.S: That's why Economists say.... Choices are bad.

sooo · Dec 21, 2010

Possibility 1: The answer to your question is sequential.
Possibility 2: The answers are prioritized.
Possibility 3: The answer is conditional, therefore
Possibility 4: there is more than one potential answer to your question,
Possibility 5: or a combination of answers - depending upon your thoughts and actions.
Possibility 6: The answer partly pertains to mental/emotional condition leading to the question, partly to how it objectively looks, and partly what is the best course of action or non-action. Sometimes it's helpful to do one thing (or line), and not to do another.

my_key · Dec 21, 2010

Hi Tifa

There are lots of good methods to follow or plenty of other more freestyle ways to interpret multiple changing lines.

When I get a reading with multiple changing lines I sometimes try to make a story from them. There are lots of stories to make up, but one may be along these lines
Line 1 - Where the seeds have grown from
Line 2 - How it manifests now
Line 3 - How it's playing on my emotions
Line 4 - What do I make of it all
Line 5 - How to go forward
Line 6 - Where it's going to burst forth

Dealing with changing lines is to my mind a very personal thing. There is no right or wrong way. The Yi speaks to you how it speaks to you. Part of the fun is playing with it and see what works for you.

Be Well
Mike

anemos · Dec 22, 2010

when get a multiple lines reading , I see lines as spark plugs in an engine. sometimes the tell as tory , sometimes the contradict each other, so looking at them that way, observing each one as if it was the only changing one, I feel it let it free to unravel its meaning to me.

Once I got such a reading which I though was not really helpfull because i only could see YI reapiting my confusions in its own words. Was it useless ? nope, because it help me to short out things into my mind, see my confusions as an observer. that was the reading that transformed a complicate reading to simple sparks

tifa · Dec 22, 2010

Thank you for all your replies. Now it does makes sense to me.

Sounds to me,
multiple moving lines is way complicated and deep-er than the movie, "Inception".

wck6265 · Dec 22, 2010

A disturbing thought

I find it very disturbing that everyone is giving so much importance to lines and words interpretations. I always find this the most tedious way of looking at I Ching.

First, there are 64 x 6 = 384 lines to interpret. And thousands more words to add to the work load. We are multiplying the complexity of I Ching rather than simplifying it.

Second, The complexity multiplies further if we + interpretations + translations + cultural differences + individuals + belief systems + religions + ...

It is not surprising at all that the progress of I Ching's knowledge remains stagnant after thousands of years. It still remains as a set of reading tools for some and a mystery for most. Whereas Science has transformed our whole civilization many times over, giving the same period of time.

I believe I Ching has the same potential to change civilization like Science; and should share the same status one day.

I feel sad for I Ching for not having a chance to realize its full potential.

anemos · Dec 22, 2010

wck6265 said:
I find it very disturbing that everyone is giving so much importance to lines and words interpretations. I always find this the most tedious ways of looking at I Ching.

Hi

can you elaborate the quoted part ? what to take into account and how you use Yi ?

wck6265 · Dec 22, 2010

The Scientific I Ching

Science simplifies complex problems to its most basic form; and then constructs complex solutions basing on the the basic principle derived.

A good example is I Ching itself as its whole structure is built on the basic concept of yin and yang. It has created 64 natural processes out of this basic principle to describe how the universe works. The writings are just descriptions of the 64 processes, and nothing more.

A good example is Kan 29. It is actually describing an underground water drainage system. This is a natural phenomenon. What about Li 30 ? It is about an adrenaline rush. Another perfectly natural phenomenon.

I Ching has given us a set of DNA blueprints for the 64 natural processes. It is up to us to manipulate these blueprints for our spiritual evolution. A more powerful view will be : to realize our fullest potential as an individual at first and then as a human being at large.

anemos · Dec 23, 2010

thanks for your response.

I agree about the importance of the trigrams and I have find many answer when I focus on them , being the water and let it talk to me, being the earth, the mountain, and hear waht they "tell" me.

yet, I have some experience where a word or the position of the line hold significant info for me and helped me understand the reading. I'm not sure thought if you mean their are insignificant or not, hence my question to you.

If someone asked me " how you use Yi, what method do you follow" i would say " it depends"

heylise · Dec 24, 2010

wck6265 said:
I find it very disturbing that everyone is giving so much importance to lines and words interpretations.
....
I feel sad for I Ching for not having a chance to realize its full potential.

I think "what the Yi is" and "consult the Yi" are two different things. It can be science, basic, no words, whatever you find the best way to see it. But for consulting you need more than its structure, you need words which tell you something. Or a picture.

I agree that natural phenomena are the best images for the hexagrams, but to know that image you need words. The trigram water - you know because you read, or someone told you, that this trigram is water.

wck6265 · Dec 25, 2010

Different View Different Way

Different view will give you different way. Knowing what the oracle is definitely will give you a more accurate perspective.

Interpreting words are no different from other forms of readings like object, tarot, runes, palms, bones and so on. It draws from a set of references, your emotions, past experiences or knowledges with a little help from your sixth sense. The end result is always very subjective and most of the time giving only parts the whole story.

What make I Ching different is that it is actually a description of our life processes. As such, the reading is an actual report of your present state, and then it tells you the best way to move forward, by taking the route of least resistance. It also tells you the cause and effect; given an opportunity to reflect on your past action that led you to the present state. It is very much like a medical diagnosis of your state of being; and complete with prescription to put you on the right track for speedy recovery.

It always tells you story as it is, in its raw form, impassively. As such the story always comes as pop up messages, giving you views that are usually beyond your knowledge. This form of delivery is to prevent you from contaminating the data with your personal inputs. The end result is always enlightening.

On top of all these goodies; all I Ching oracles possess mystical powers. Once understood and mastered, it can extract private information directly and accurately. Besides, the mystical powers can be used for so many other ways to better our lives and humanity at large. Reading is only a very small part of I Ching once you know what the oracles are.

I cannot see how you can possibly get so much done by just reading from lines and words. By the way, the best I Ching book is I Ching itself. It always surprises you with views that enlighten and are beyond words. Because of this, I Ching is also known as a book without words : wordless heavenly book; a term translated directly from Chinese without any interpretation.

Again it is just one more perspective to add to yours.

A very Merry Christmas to all.

elias · Dec 25, 2010

A good example is I Ching itself as its whole structure is built on the basic concept of yin and yang. It has created 64 natural processes out of this basic principle to describe how the universe works. The writings are just descriptions of the 64 processes, and nothing more.

In all spiritual endeavors there is a conflicting tendency toward greater complexity through more elaborated interpretations (building on prior interpretations) vs a fundamentalist approach that presupposes that earlier interpretations are more accurate because they are "more authentic." Approaches to the I Ching are no different.

In my view, what's found on this site are as good as it gets in contemporary interpretations -- some providing interpretations founded on traditional approaches with a contemporary spin, some pushing into prognostications more akin to Tarot. In any event, the more thoughtful are speaking to this time, and that's what matters. In another decade the world will have moved on and new metaphors, growing out of our time, will speak more clearly to a new time. One must, in Jung's terms, dream the myth onward.

Of "traditionalist" approaches -- Kerson & Rosemary Huang demonstrate how impoverishing it is to go the strictly fundamentalist route. Having stripped the I Ching of all "accretions," what's left is a pretty thin soup, because the social matrix upon which it is founded can not be retrieved. In such a vacuum the door is opened to all nature of nonsense base on what "I think" and "I feel." That way lies madness.

wck6265 · Dec 25, 2010

Approaches versus Understaqndings

There is a distinct difference between approaches and understandings. I really cannot comprehend how you could interpret something that you do not understand.

Words are something understood by everyone. It is an obvious choice to use words to formulate an approach. But the end result is then immediately restricted by its meanings, actual or implied.

What I am proposing has nothing to do with approaches, contemporary or fundamental. It is basically an appeal to everyone to understand I Ching as it is: natural or life processes. It is only with understanding, we could then formulate approaches to explore its powers and ways to put them to good use.

I guess at this stage whatever I say will appear to be offensive. From now on, I will focus more on producing results rather than keep on writing something that no one could comprehend now.

anemos · Dec 25, 2010

wck6265 said:
There is a distinct difference between approaches and understandings. I really cannot comprehend how you could interpret something that you do not understand.

.

why not ? How you define" understanding " I believe we know a lots more that we are aware. how many times you get a reading, you just read the Yi text ( not the intepretations) and you "know", yet you can't explain even to yourself what you "learned" , what that "change" you fell inside means.

Is there any line in Yi of profound wisdom ? not sure. The more you read the lines the more mundate, simple they look. Not big things. When the water is block by a obstractle it change its route. do I need Yi to tell me that ?

What make Yi special to me, when I seek an answer, is those times i read its advise and say " :duh:

, why I didn't think about it ? I knew it ".

... and Merry Christmas to you

sooo · Dec 25, 2010

tifa said:
Thank you for all your replies. Now it does makes sense to me.

Sounds to me,
multiple moving lines is way complicated and deep-er than the movie, "Inception".

We may whistle, jump up and down and point, but the only answer that matters is one which you know in your gut to trust. If it still just rattles around in our brain, that's fine too, but the matter remains unsettled, or even more unsettling than before we've inquired. Thing is, that's not always a bad thing. Sometimes have to stir up the firmament as well as the terra firma to expose the gold.

heylise · Dec 25, 2010

wck6265 said:
I guess at this stage whatever I say will appear to be offensive. From now on, I will focus more on producing results rather than keep on writing something that no one could comprehend now.

The only thing which is a bit annoying is telling everyone they have it wrong and you have it right. Maybe you are.. but that approach will turn others off. There are many ways to work with the Yi, and one is not necessarily right and another wrong. Even ways which seem to contradict each other can both be right.

I are curious about your view, I'd like to know more, see where you come from and where you get. Giving examples would help. A theory can be wonderful, but it can only prove itself if it 'works'.

Something behind the words, a base, is of course of big value. Translating is very difficult, even the best ones fall short. But I don't think that makes the words superfluous. Maybe for some it does, but I know I myself am not one of those. I'd like to know all, the words and everything behind them.

So I hope you go on with sharing your ideas.

sooo · Dec 25, 2010

multiple lines as a map

Since on the topic of interpreting 4 lines...

I just inquired about a long standing familia situation, that I'd like to set straight. The question pertained to what it looked like (objectively) and what noble course is best to follow. 1.1,3,5,6 - 40. At a glance, I know in my gut what it's saying. I don't have to think about it or look it up. But of course, being the curious sort, I follow line meanings up with my brain anyway, usually, examining the evidence. And what I see is a sort of map. Movement within the map is in the process, and how I navigate through the map determines a general outcome. There's no exact instructions per se, but there are essential timings and boundaries to be conscious of, with focus on release of tension and a fresh start.

It ain't rocket science, though it can involve some brain surgery.

anemos · Dec 25, 2010

heylise said:
Something behind the words, a base, is of course of big value. Translating is very difficult, even the best ones fall short. But I don't think that makes the words superfluous. Maybe for some it does, but I know I myself am not one of those. I'd like to know all, the words and everything behind them.

.

same here .

Some time ago I asked Yi about something very serious. The Line I got was not a really nice one. It must be the first time I asked Yi and regreat about it, because there was a bad side in that line that scared me a lot. If the situation was different perhaps I would have back off from the plan.

it was line 7.3 . the position of the line was very to the point. ( it was the part of the body that the surgery would take place). I thought , well, its not a bad reading neither speaks about a bad outcome. Then I read Lise's 7.3. somewhere I read "butchers knife". Don't know about you, but here in Greece a bad doctor is called a butcher. But my gut feeling was against it , I trusted a lot my doctor, so I asked LiSe about it and she told me the "butchers knife" story.

Outside the surgery room , I heard my doctor talking to the Head doctor of the department. I heard the "butchers knife" story !!! They were discussing my case and decided to cut me in another place still in the line 3 area and a procedure of 4 hours , finished in 1 1/2 hours.

I hestitated a lot before sharing this story here, for the obvious reasons, but I thought it would be an useful example. Line 7.3 is still a work in progress, so I don't have a feedback, yet till now , to me , its a reminder not to discard anything.

anemos · Dec 25, 2010

A Butcher's Knife

King Hui of Liang was watching his chef cutting up the carcass of an ox. As the chef slid his knife in and out of the ox’s body, his shoulders, feet and knees moved in harmony with his hands. The knife was dancing and the sound of ripping the hide and slicing the flesh were making a kind of music.

The king was marveled. “How did you acquire such skill?”

“I’m interested in learning how things work,” the chef replied, “not just mastering the techniques. When I first worked on an ox, I saw nothing but its body. After three years, I no longer saw it that way. I understood its components and structure. Now I use my mind more than my eyes. My knife follows the anatomy of the ox and makes its way through the cavities and crevices inside the body. I avoid the tendons and ligaments, to say nothing of the bones.

“A good chef has to replace his knife every year. He cleaves with it. A so-so chef needs a new knife every month. He chops with it. I’ve been using my knife for nineteen years and have carved thousands of oxen. But it is as good as a new one.

“I look for spaces between the joints and bones where the thin blade of my knife can move about freely. If I come upon a hard joint, I’ll proceed with caution. I’ll slow down and apply my knife gently along the natural lines of the body. When the carcass comes apart, dropping to the floor like soft mud, I’ll heave a sigh of relief. I’ll feel a sense of satisfaction. I always take good care of my knife.”

“Excellent!” the king was impressed. “You’ve taught me something about life.”

I'm quoting the whole story, because I find it also relevant to what we discuss here.

yamabushi · Dec 26, 2010

Does anybody use Alfred Huang method of 4 moving lines? Taking the upper of two non-moving lines?

elias · Dec 28, 2010

Does anybody use Alfred Huang method of 4 moving lines? Taking the upper of two non-moving lines?

That's the procedure I use. I stumbled upon it relatively recently, but find that it structures an otherwise confusing response pretty well.

One should still look over the entire hex and all the lines, as well as the resultant. I do not find it useful to further manipulate the initial reading with various secondary processes.

tifa · Dec 29, 2010

All right, I just read through the posts in this thread and I have a question again. Perhaps a stupid one..
If you have 4 changing lines and you were to read two unmoving lines, should I assume that you are ignoring the 4 moving lines? (e.g. 19.1.2.3.4)

And if that's the case, Yi should have changed the two unmoving lines rather than taking the trouble in moving four? (19.5.6.). Is there a logic behind reading the two unmoving lines?

Details will be appreciated. Many THanks:bows:

Tifa

Trojina · Dec 29, 2010

tifa said:
All right, I just read through the posts in this thread and I have a question again. Perhaps a stupid one..
If you have 4 changing lines and you were to read two unmoving lines, should I assume that you are ignoring the 4 moving lines? (e.g. 19.1.2.3.4)

And if that's the case, Yi should have changed the two unmoving lines rather than taking the trouble in moving four? (19.5.6.). Is there a logic behind reading the two unmoving lines?

Details will be appreciated. Many THanks:bows:

Tifa

Hi I haven't given you my take on multi moving lines yet because i said it so many times i know i bore everyone to death but hey you haven't heard it before......so

(can't this question about multi movinglines be a sticky then we wouldn't have to keep repeating)

anyway...i think people can get too overwhelmed with multi moving lines. My simple view is the more lines that are moving the more relevant the second hexagram is so to get an overview of the answer first reduce the two hexgrams to a sentence, just look at what they say together first, then look at the lines if you wish, in that context, perhaps as stages in the progression of events or alternatives ( though i don't really get the 'alternatives' angle)

when just one line moves i consider it very important and the second hexagram of less relevance....and so on.

It seems to work for me.

I just can't see the logic of looking at the two lines that don't move as your changing lines ???

You didn't cast them as your changing lines...if they were your changing lines you would have cast them.....For a newbie i feel it would be crazy to take that route of considering non changing lines as your changing lines....but each to his own

heylise · Dec 29, 2010

If you ask advice of someone how to do whatever you want to do, let's say: open a webshop. He gives you several pieces of advice. About buying stuff, making a website, attracting customers... Would you reduce them to just 1 advice and discard the rest because it is too complicated, too many things to look after... Or even only do what he did NOT advise??

Each line is its own piece of advice. But if it does confuse you too much, then Trojan's making a sentence of the two hexagrams is a great way to make things more clear and simple.

elias · Dec 29, 2010

I'll second Trojan on this. The more changing lines, the greater the emphasis on the secondary hex. When you get six lines changing, you're essentially into that new place. Or so I have been told.

It's not a matter of reading only the changing line(s). It's important to look over all the lines to see the sweep of the action, to get a more complete notion of the evolution of a situation.

zhan1 · Jan 4, 2011

Any method of working with multiple lines has to be tested and the formulation of a theory requires some supporting evidence and reasoning. The best way to proceed is by examining the evidence first to determine if any clues can be found that might shed some light and then follow the evidence to a conclusion. The text of the Yijing and the hexagram structure provide some material to work with and those who are interested in this line of inquiry can read more in the article I posted here.
I might also mention that it has really only been in the modern era that inquirers have attempted to combine many lines into one answer. For centuries the Chinese followed the rules given by the 12th century scholar Zhu Xi.

miakoda · Jan 6, 2011

I read 3 or more changing lines using only the fan yaos. A few years ago, I took up this method of reading after discovering it buried in a book somewhere. This approach has turned out not only to produce extremely understandable readings, but has been reliably accurate.

dabbledooya · Feb 3, 2011

I just take the top changing line and forget the rest. It is a no-muss, no-fuss method, and is easy to describe. Take the last change, that's my suggestion, especially for beginners. They're already preoccupied with the strangeness and unfamiliarity of the whole oracle process. Show some compassion, I tell myself. Show some compassion to myself, as well. Instead of laboring through three or four line descriptions, and trying to make sense of it, I think I'll go have a salad and ponder solely on the last changing place as the line to consider.

Fakoya · Jan 17, 2017

Reminds me of the Ifa system!

Great post

wck6265 said:
Science simplifies complex problems to its most basic form; and then constructs complex solutions basing on the the basic principle derived.

A good example is I Ching itself as its whole structure is built on the basic concept of yin and yang. It has created 64 natural processes out of this basic principle to describe how the universe works. The writings are just descriptions of the 64 processes, and nothing more.

A good example is Kan 29. It is actually describing an underground water drainage system. This is a natural phenomenon. What about Li 30 ? It is about an adrenaline rush. Another perfectly natural phenomenon.

I Ching has given us a set of DNA blueprints for the 64 natural processes. It is up to us to manipulate these blueprints for our spiritual evolution. A more powerful view will be : to realize our fullest potential as an individual at first and then as a human being at large.

Princeji · Jan 17, 2017

The yi is all about individual relationships with the one asking i reckon and it speaks to each one with equality. We each connect in our own way, it seems.Very mysterious. As this site makes clear, there are many ways to read a divination and ways of reading changing lines. Words are not the same as what they describe and the yi is fundementally visual in the process of making the connections through divination. I think the yi resonates with what we honestly feel a need and desire to learn in the present moment, ultimately. Just putting in a few pence. Thank you clarity folks for having info on methods for reading changing lines.

Interpreting 4 or more Changing lines?

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