I was wondering if many people here use computers to do a "serious" divinatory cast.

Many people (of many traditions such as Tarot or Runes) stress the need to handle the implements of divination (typically coins or yarrow stalks in the case of the yiJing)

I think this is because of the belief is that the Universe, the Sage, or your Unconscious mind can influence the random events of tossing the coins by influencing the way you toss the coins (or the way you separate the yarrow stalks). If such influence is actually the reality, then this would argue against using computers perhaps (since it might be less plausible to affect a computers circuits as a computer generates pseudo-random numbers according to an algorithm, and indeed, will always generate the same sequence of numbers unless you "reset" the random number generator).

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I suppose I lean toward the 'handling' end of the spectrum...it certainly seems more personal (even though I wrote a program to do the looking up of the hexagrams (cast, nuclear, resultant, steps of change, etc)).

Thank you

It might be of interest to note that scientists (or social scientists) do not use computers to generate random numbers since they are not truly random.

No idea how random random is, but the answers I get are very to the point. More so than with coins.

Took a long time to start with computer-casting, but when I did, I was amazed about the accuracy of the answers. Once for the same question, a serious question but also using it to test if computers gave good answers, three times the exact same hexagram, all three no changing lines. From 3 different online oracles.

Got me convinced.

I love the internet ones too, such as yours Lise, there a sense with all those users and http requests that you not only asking yi but jacking into mass consciousness. (much like the other oracle, google.)

just to offer variety here I dislike all computer generated I Chings and don't use them except for quickies I don't take too seriously.

I'd always use a hand cast with coins for a serious query... If its a serious question I reckon i can afford a couple of minutes to shake coins and besides I feel quieter with more connection that way. I really don't want a computer on when I'm consulting, feels like background noise.

As to whether computer casts are as effective who knows. Many say they are. I guess its down to personal preference.

celtic said:

...
It might be of interest to note that scientists (or social scientists) do not use computers to generate random numbers since they are not truly random...

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Hi, Celtic:

I don't use computers neither Internet for making consults but I have nothing against people that like it.

About the accuracy of the answers belongs to the job of the oracle not to the way of asking, and no oracle is perfect.

Add that we can fail listening.

You can use computers for generate random numbers or can use another means, none is truly random. In probability nothing is true or false, there are always quota of error.

«To err is human, to forgive is divine.
But to put errors in your designs is statistical»
​

Leslie Kish
[The guy that predicted that Truman was going to win]

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Yours,

Charly

There are two online divination sites that I SWEAR BY! Both for Iching and Tarot.

Been using them for years.

Always uncannily accurate.

Never been wrong yet!

I am under the belief that it really doesn't matter how you cast. I think its all to do with intention. hexagram 1 = intention/idea/thought, hexagram 2 = earth/action/matter. My feeling is that a computer program is earth and your question/intention is heaven. I think its just as valid as yarrow or cointoss.

I use online iching programmes alot and find them to be very accurate for me.

Sunfit- which ones do you use?

Yx

charly said:

You can use computers for generate random numbers or can use another means, none is truly random. In probability nothing is true or false, there are always quota of error.

Charly

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Just a note about random...I must disagree with Charly.
Computers do not produce truly random events, while other means do such as:
fair coins, fair dice, the pattern of decay of atoms from a radio-active source; these are all truly random. Of course, computers do produce a pretty good approximation of random, so the difference may be academic.

I suppose my premise was that a truly random event contains no information, and that with a coin toss etc., since a human is handling the implements, it would leave open the door to manipulation of the implements through unconscious, or spiritual means in order to create meaning with regard to the oracle. Whereas it's more difficult for me to see that one can influence a computer in this way, and so obtain a connection with the oracle.

Of course it does come down to personal choice with regard to which method one uses. My interest, I suppose, was primarily one of what mechanism is thought to influence computers to produce an answer from the oracle.

Again, I can see how the argument can be made on the basis of handling, but I'm not clear about the mechanism of how a computer can be so influenced. I have a thought about it, but wanted to see what others think.

Hi Celtic,

I have been using both computer generated readings and coin tossing, without noticing any difference in the reliability of the outcome between the two. In fact, I've received strikingly accurate online castings - maybe more accurate than with the coin method. Among the different ones I use, the free reading application available on Clarity is a favourite: with just one "enter" pressing you get the full casting and it usually is impressively appropriate to the question. Without getting into any physics or statistics related argument, in my view the same "law" is at work whether you use computers or personally handled divination tools - synchronicity. Whatever you call it, anyway, the truth is it works.

There can still be user interaction involved

There are ways of using a computer while still retaining the “handling” aspect; my way of doing it has been to have the computer generate the possibilities, but the user make the final choice. For a yarrow stalk simulation, see

http://www.russellcottrell.com/VirtualYarrowStalks/VirtualYarrowStalks.htm

and for the way of sixteen, see

http://www.russellcottrell.com/VirtualYarrowStalks/wayOfSixteen.htm

The latter was intended to be a Facebook app, and it worked for awhile until Facebook changed something and then it didn’t work anymore; haven’t had the energy to look into it further. Other ways to do it are using the user’s mouse movements, or the typing of a phrase, or the position of a mouse click on a large scrolling field (have experimented with all of these). A simple coin method would be to have the user choose “coin number one” or “coin number two,” one being heads and the other tails, the user not knowing which is which.

(Looking deeper into how a computer works, its generation of pseudorandom numbers is usually based in part on the exact time, in milliseconds, that the user clicks or takes some action, so there is actually still some sort of user interaction involved.)

Having said that, of course one may still prefer physical objects. My point is that when using a computer, one doesn’t have to rely solely on the computer’s pseudorandom numbers, there can still be user interaction. I personally don’t like to throw coins because to me there is less “handling” involved in that method than there is with the above computer methods; if I use coins I choose them from a bowl or bag so there is a choice involved.

—Russell

I can certainly say that I have used the online program from this site and it has proved freaky accurate. Still, like you Celtic, I do prefer the handling of coins, tokens or sticks. Depends on the mood and context with which I am in.

russell said:

(...) For a yarrow stalk simulation, see

http://www.russellcottrell.com/VirtualYarrowStalks/VirtualYarrowStalks.htm

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Russell,

just wanted to mention I had been using your site quite often before you posted this link - I possibly found it by searching Yi related sites. Love the three different translation options!