Any experiences of 10.5?

I've noticed quite a few renderings of this line but it still feels indistinct to me. So far, I see this as a command decision to enagage the Tiger where there'll be advantages and disadvantages. This is an important line to me - goes deep as its connected to a resumption of "studies" that will determine how my life continues for better or for worse. But the "worse" may be what's needed.

It reminds me a little of 28.6 lol...

Certainly like 28.6 in the sense of "All In."

bradford said:

Certainly like 28.6 in the sense of "All In."

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You mean all or nothing? And if it's half-hearted it's dangerous?

well yeah, its resolute its decisive, you cant make .5 of a decision

No tigers here but lots of rattlesnakes. I don't let that stop me from walking, I just am cautious where I step, in addition to ritually requesting protection from the gods and the snakes themselves. Now, my dog must rely on different senses other than reason and belief, such as a heightened sense of hearing and smelling. He treads with his nose, which he still sticks into places where snakes may hide. That doesn't stop him from being a dog though, nor the snake from being a snake. So risks are a part of the walking, just as not walking runs the risk of turning into a potato, which to me is far more dangerous.

Last year I asked about relocating to a certain city and I received 10.5. I made the move.

This thread from a couple of years ago would have helped me. And Bradford's commentary, "You are just about ready to do your next and best act, a romp with a real, live tiger... The true and correct is what will survive when one is this exposed..."

Certainly success in the move was going to depend on being whole-hearted, committed, and unwavering in spite of NUMEROUS challenges that would present themselves. "All in" as Brad said.

I would say that many of my challenges were inner ones and that a daily spiritual practice was needed. I think of line 26.3 and the need for "daily training at chariot and defense."

It would have also helped me to have had some clearing or healing of whatever there is in me that blocks me on acting on my inner wisdom, i.e., whatever it is that leads to self sabotage. (And my self sabotage includes repeatedly asking Yi a question, understanding the answer, and failing to act on it. Or asking and not taking enough time to understand an answer before asking more and more.)

I would tell someone who is facing a 10.5 situation to NOT GIVE UP and to practice gratitude instead of complaining about difficulties that arise. I was given an 11th hour opportunity 7 months into the experience that would have likely turned my life around for the better had I been ready to commit to it. But instead I have fallen into quite an abyss.

Peter

This is certainly 'decisive' treading in the sense that it will likely present not only external problems and difficulties but it will also invoke internal challenges - doubt, misunderstanding, inner-conflict etc etc. This direction will demand that you draw deeply from your innermost resources, on your capacity for balanced reflection, keeping the intrusive presence of unwarranted anxiety at a distance. But don't go at this like a bull at a gate (what IS the hexagram for that scenario? I've often thought on it but can't seem to come up with anything even though the ancient Chinese undoubtably possessed both bulls and gates - anyone?) rather, remember that you are 'treading' carefully, but with inner certainty.

The parallel nuclear progression (37,6 - 63) reflects a parallel process. Gentle control of ego/idea, Sun above Li, the central process within any family, reinforces the need for internal self-control - "that one makes demands first of all upon oneself" (top yin) - leading to settled completion.

This is a correct path of quiet certainty in which you must maintain a balanced awareness of possible difficulties without being overwhelmed by them. Good luck and best wishes. Peter

Going back to experiences with 10.5, My own experience with 10.5, and what I have observed of others is that you need to assess whether it's worth tackling this tiger or not. I don't think getting what you want is necessarily guaranteed here even if you do persist to the end.

My most memorable experience of it was on enquiring about what if I, as a volunteer in an organisation, made a grievance/challenge what ever to the CEO...so there was a massive difference in status between volunteer and CEO of the place. Status difference comes into 10 a lot of course...one treads carefully around the tiger. I had asked out of interest. but actually couldn't think of a more ludicrous course of action. It wouldn't get me what I wanted and even if it did it wouldn't be comfortable to stay after all that. Better IMO to place energies elsewhere.

So I could have gone ahead but I think the cost to me would have been massive, exhausting. Tangling with a tiger is surely not for the faint hearted...but if you are going to do it, it surely has to be in service of an extremely worthy cause !

I have seen instances a number of times where going ahead to tackle to tiger has pretty much left a person high and dry....as in "oh dear, how did I get here....what shall I do now ?"


So I think when your heart is in it, when you will get mauled for the sake of something...then sure go ahead. If you are going to get mauled for the sake of a smaller goal then think twice.

Surely a lot of thought is required before taking on a tiger. To repeat, your heart must be in it 100 %. If it's a smaller goal of course your heart likely won't be in it to that degree...I wouldn't tackle a tiger for the sake of a burger and coke...I'd let someone else have it.

Peter, by the "bull at the gate" scenario do you mean 34.3 and 34.6 (the "billy goat butts the hedge")?

Bull at a Gate

Hi Callingcrane and thanks for your suggestion of 34,3 and 34,6. Yes, both of these carry a strong similarity with the 'bull at a gate' syndrome although they are aspects of a hexagram whose primary theme is steadfast perseverance rather than headstrong belligerence. Having said that, I think that on a line-by-line basis they are the closest we'll find within the I Ching. The bull at a gate mode is such a common pattern of behaviour I'm surprised there isn't a particular hexagram devoted to its representation although that's very much a present-day Western perspective rather than a historical oriental perspective. Perhaps Hex. 28 - Preponderance of the Great - with its unbridled, rampant yang energy comes close, but I'm not entirely convinced.

Trojan, re: your comment,

So I think when your heart is in it, when you will get mauled for the sake of something...then sure go ahead. If you are going to get mauled for the sake of a smaller goal then think twice.

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: The "heart" was certainly a part of my 10.5 experience. Only I do not think that it is implicit in the line that the querent will be mauled. There is only the potential, hence "danger." I wouldn't say "if you are going to be mauled for the sake of something." I would say "take great care to avoid being mauled." Consider the dangers. Or you could change "going to get mauled" to "risk being mauled" --- which I would recommend as an edit on your post.

Peter's comments in post # 7 above are excellent council for avoiding difficulties in a 10.5 situation. Re:

The parallel nuclear progression (37,6 - 63) reflects a parallel process. Gentle control of ego/idea, Sun above Li, the central process within any family, reinforces the need for internal self-control - "that one makes demands first of all upon oneself" (top yin) - leading to settled completion.

Click to expand...

I fell prey to danger in my 10.5 experience because I did not "keep the focus on myself". It is better to ask "What can I give to this situation?" than "What can this situation give to me?" I also got too caught up in anger about mistakes that were made by folks involved in the situation instead of letting it be their problem and giving attention to correcting my own errors.

Bradford's commentary on H 10 resonates. He says,

If they think too much of themselves, and tread too far too fast on little more than presumptions, they will merit no safety and the game falls apart.

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I think sometimes "thinking too much of oneself", i.e., arrogance, is really a defense against low self esteem. I would advise someone who finds themselves being outwardly arrogant in a 10.5 situation to find a way back to the "path of quiet certainty" Peter describes.

And in addition to "having your heart" in it as Trojan describes, I would also recommend that someone in a 10.5 situation take care of their body too. (I suppose this applies to every situation, and not just 10.5.) I mention it because one of the things that led to my failure was that I kept ignoring my body. I did not maintain hydration. When I was hungry, I didn't eat soon enough And when I was exhausted I kept pushing myself. It is difficult to maintain "quiet certainty" when one's body is out of balance.

I would still probably be on my 10.5 journey (i.e., in the city where I had relocated) if I had slowed down and taken it "one day at a time." I got too scared by a couple of bad days and instead of thinking, "This too shall pass" I bolted from my source of income and got too stuck to generate another one. Also, I needed to heed the advise I was given in a reading which included 5.3. Somehow I just did not have enough faith to pull myself out of the mud.

It is odd that I remember having received 10.5 over a year ago. It was a reading I could have benefitted from spending time with and keeping in my pocket. I had hardly explored it and it had gotten lost in the cloud of readings a mile wide and an inch deep that I was doing. Somehow I noticed this thread and it tumbled out of the cloud for reflection.

Re this

There is only the potential, hence "danger." I wouldn't say "if you are going to be mauled for the sake of something." I would say "take great care to avoid being mauled." Consider the dangers. Or you could change "going to get mauled" to "risk being mauled" --- which I would recommend as an edit on your post.

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Eh ? Thanks for the recommendation but no thanks, I will leave my post as it is.

I actually said this

So I think when your heart is in it, when you will get mauled for the sake of something...then sure go ahead. If you are going to get mauled for the sake of a smaller goal then think twice.

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and the 'will' underlined was not meant as a prediction, I meant it like you are willing to get mauled, you will face the danger willingly, you will do it. You didn't hear it how I meant it.

Also what I think about any line is not based on what other people tell me about what it means abstractly.

I don't particularly agree with you take on 10.5 but I wouldn't recommend you edit your posts. You are entitled to your views as I am mine.

Trojan, re: your comment,



So I think when your heart is in it, when you will get mauled for the sake of something...then sure go ahead. If you are going to get mauled for the sake of a smaller goal then think twice. : The "heart" was certainly a part of my 10.5 experience. Only I do not think that it is implicit in the line that the querent will be mauled. There is only the potential, hence "danger." I wouldn't say "if you are going to be mauled for the sake of something." I would say "take great care to avoid being mauled." Consider the dangers. Or you could change "going to get mauled" to "risk being mauled" --- which I would recommend as an edit on your post.

Peter's comments in post # 7 above are excellent council for avoiding difficulties in a 10.5 situation

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Oh and BTW my comments about 10.5 were not based on your experience or your post. They were based on mine.

Thank you for the clarification, Trojan. For me there is a difference between facing a danger and actually being mauled. But I can also say based on experience that sometimes facing dangers can feel like being mauled, so I see your point about being willing. I do think there is great value in your post. 10.5 may not be worth it for small things that someone doesn't really have their heart in.

I meant no disrespect to you in requesting the edit. It is just that there was so much potential in my move and I am heartbroken that I failed. I am writing about it here in the hopes that someone else may benefit from what I have been through. I may not have followed my heart if someone had told me "you are going to be mauled." I would have followed my heart more carefully if someone had told me, "you risk being mauled, take care." And I can say that I would do it again, even though I failed and was mauled.

I wish I had read Bradford's commentary back when I had done the reading. He says:

"You are just about ready to do your next and best act."

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In my case, Brad's commentary was applicable. From what I know about my life and everything that has happened to me in the past 10 years, there was the potential in my move for my "best act." Instead, it was simply my "next act". I wouldn't want someone to avoid a journey that could be "their next and best act" because they thought they would certainly be mauled. I would tell them to train and enjoy the romp with the Tiger.

Someone can face a danger without being mauled or feeling like they are being mauled and I think Peter gives good lines for doing so. Bradford's commentary is also relevant based on my experience:

"Commitment will need to be absolute, but the greatest determination will not be the determing part of success. To speak to your sovereign firmly and clearly, to say what you want, with neither false pride nor false modesty will leave no more room in your mind for what does not belong here."

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And Trojan also gives good council for someone considering embarking on a 10.5 experience to consider whether or not they are willing and ready to face dangers.

There is more than one kind of danger isn't there? And I suppose that is another consideration in 10.5. To risk being fired is bigger than risking being chastised. Sometimes smaller acts with smaller risks may be worth attempting. Or would Yi give a different answer than 10.5 in that situation?

I think I actually did experience 10.5 and stopped just short of the mauling ! Anyway like I said I didn't write my post with reference to your post ...so I'm not sure why you 'recommend' I edit my post ? here

Or you could change "going to get mauled" to "risk being mauled" --- which I would recommend as an edit on your post

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Have PMd you about that, about you recommending I alter my post, it puzzles me, maybe we could discuss it in PM so we won't clutter this thread ?

I must have been editing #14 and had not seen Trojan's #15 until after I saved it. Yes, further discussion in PM is fine with me. I took the time to write #14 in case it would be helpful to someone considering a 10.5 experience.

I have been reviewing what Peter wrote in #7 of this thread. I have decided that I actually am not finished with my 10.5 experience so I am going to keep his council in mind... including

This is a correct path of quiet certainty in which you must maintain a balanced awareness of possible difficulties without being overwhelmed by them. Good luck and best wishes. Peter

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(And also Trojan's council in another thread not to fall prey to self abnegation)

callingcrane said:

I would tell someone who is facing a 10.5 situation to NOT GIVE UP and to practice gratitude instead of complaining about difficulties that arise. I was given an 11th hour opportunity 7 months into the experience that would have likely turned my life around for the better had I been ready to commit to it. But instead I have fallen into quite an abyss.

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This is an old thread but wanted to come back on my initial question. Calling crane's description of 10.5 is exactly how it played out for me in the sense that I was complaining (a lot) and I was highly pissed off with my situation back then which was very far from easy.

That said, in 2011 I decided not to tread on the Tiger tale just at that point as I thought in the end it probably wasn't worth it. So, I didn't give up and trusted that somehow a way would be found if I could just hold on. This year something far, far better took my attention and showed where my true interests lay. Had I given in I think I could have given the Tiger a back rub and even tickled his whiskers and got away with it but the end result wouldn't have been worth the trouble. And I would have had a Tiger none too pleased about an end to his back rubs... : )

But to really BECOME the Tiger it sometimes means a long road and an almost shamanic stripping to fully shape-shift and experience a Tiger's world. But once you do everything that has gone before is understood.

Decisiveness could often mean to NOT engage right then and there but to commit to a longer process where the danger's still present but you've made a 49.5 transformation so that you have the ability and awareness - whether in business, relationships or whatever - to respectfully tread in his kingdom without fear of a claw hooking your backside and tearing off a strip, usually when you least expect it.

So, 10.5 says yes, you can actively engage with life as it stands perhaps outside the natural cycles and before the ideal times for such things; it's not wrong and you may just escape that up-close-and-personal claw tasting session with the Tiger with your scalp intact. You may also end up being scattered like confetti. Either way, you're sure to learn in a powerful way as you gather yourself together. Or, you can opt for the more gentle, slower route which is less dramatic and sexy but also less risky and more sure, if that is, you're prepared to stay the distance.

A similar line for me is H.60.3 which I also got many times during that period. It states from Wikiwing:

'Not like limiting means it will be like lamenting.
Not a mistake.'

On the one hand, this is a straightforward warning: set limits, or regret it. On the other hand – not a mistake! Why not?

60 zhi Hexagram 5, Articulating Waiting. So this is about waiting, expecting, needing, preparing having faith. If you don’t articulate and limit these desires, then surely there’ll be lamenting. Maybe because your expectations were unrealistic, maybe just because they weren’t clear enough, and you didn’t really know what you wanted. But you’ve had an opportunity to experience the full extent of your needing, expecting, waiting and hoping; that’s not a mistake, and nor is lamenting it.

(When you Wait for something, you expect and prepare for and attend to it single-mindedly. You certainly don't enter into a down-to-earth negotiation with people or circumstances about what's realistically possible and likely. So you lament, but at least you waited faithfully.)

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Again, pretty much exactly what I did. Set my own limits on the desire to do something and waited. For me, being aware of the difficulties so often tipped over into being overwhelmed by them due to my persistence to leap before fully thinking things through was enough for me to stop and really take time out.

Maybe our response to 10.5 does depend on how hard the road has been prior to the reading. Before 2011 I had just about as much as I could take from life after taking on the Tiger fairly constantly and pretty much gaining a nice variety of scars for my trouble. Though I was learning a great deal it was taking its toll and I wasn't learning quite fast enough it seems, being a bit rebellious and stubborn by nature. So, by 2011, after this reading I did indeed pause for the first time in my Harey life and take the longer route, (though I still complained a lot) yet, which finally allowed me to access a deeper, more meaningful life.

So far...

10.5 ... quite a magnetic line and certainly a pivotal point in the decision-making process.

I got this line about 2-3 days before this old thread re-emerged – an eerie coincidence, I thought. A very old situation that had occurred and reoccurred many times in my life and the past years twice, asked for my attention.

Line 10.5 was not clear to me, what advise Yi was giving but h38 never came to me in such a literal and intense way. The mild mental image was that of Levi’s image – the other were more scary – I was splitting in the most literal way trying to keep myself together but didn’t know how.


I can empathize with that pair of jeans, lol

I felt 10.5 somehow was asking to surrender. I knew and discussed with others too , most of the dangers of acting or not acting of looking for the quick path or the more slower painful one. I was that scared that I have never felt it such intense feeling in my whole life. There was a big danger that if I decided to go on the slow way I might never be able to return. And that was not only my subjective experience; there was a real danger there. The short cut, on the other hand, might work but was facing the same danger- Do nothing, as a third option, was unrealistic, the process has started no way to stop it- there was another danger too if I were to “choose” that.

Surrender to me, was no about a passive respond, on the contrary. It needed a big decision to go into the jungle. It’s what all of you already said “go wholehearted”. ; be aware of danger, keep yourself/body strong, and decide you are willing to get some scars if it’s necessary.

What Topal says :

Decisiveness could often mean to NOT to engage right then and there but to commit to a longer process…

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Resonates a lot. Time is relative, of course, and long or short depends on the context, yet , the key words is , imo, “ to commit” and that commitment gives a sense of freedom, in lack of other better words because you put first the long term goal not the specific action or no action of “today”. It is both determination and flexibility.

I’m not done with that matter;due to other circumstances have put it aside for a while. yet, I feel, that commitment works in a subterranean level. When you find your self that the only way is to go through the jungle apprehension emerges and a “rush” to pass through this quickly – run faster than the tiger. What I got from 10.5 and other readings ( I had a few ) was that there is no need to rush and that just the personal commitment gives you something to hold onto when the times are not that easy.

anemos said:

Resonates a lot. Time is relative, of course, and long or short depends on the context, yet , the key words is , imo, “ to commit” and that commitment gives a sense of freedom, in lack of other better words because you put first the long term goal not the specific action or no action of “today”. It is both determination and flexibility.

I’m not done with that matter;due to other circumstances have put it aside for a while. yet, I feel, that commitment works in a subterranean level. When you find your self that the only way is to go through the jungle apprehension emerges and a “rush” to pass through this quickly – run faster than the tiger. What I got from 10.5 and other readings ( I had a few ) was that there is no need to rush and that just the personal commitment gives you something to hold onto when the times are not that easy.

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Yes, it seems to happen a lot in relatively balanced online "networks" which have found their rhythm - those eerie "coincidences" where folks are thinking on exact line numbers seem to be common. Perhaps it's those natural patterns of randomicity. Either way, they can be very productive avenues of learning which I suppose what makes Clarity so resonant. Anyway...

Completely agree with your thoughts on commitment. This little word has been profoundly important in my own life since I actually DID commit on a range of issues related to what we could call a "spiritual" calling which seemed to come up again and again. It took most of life so far to actually get it and make the effort to commit for the long term. What was it that Gurdjieff mentioned? For the person who wanted to break the patterns of mental/emotional reactions which were drawn from purely mechanical state: Are you ready to pay all and pay in advance? Something like that.

A marriage, partnership, an addiction, a type of behaviour or refusal to see etc., all could be a form of unwillingness to commit to what is needed. Determination and flexibility or adaptability, yes. Also, constancy and persistence are keywords throughout the Book of Changes because over time they indicate the slow (46,53) process of self-realisation or revolution underlying so many decisions we make - or choose to put off.

You're dead right on the surrendering / passive mode of commitment which I fought with for a long time. Our culture is still very much into "making things happen" and getting what we want by actively going for it. Very much the American ideal. It certainly has it's place in the right harmony, but this isn't what we have now. We have an all-consuming need to fill a hole - a pathological activity that never quits. East and West still need to bridge a lot of distance perhaps. Lots could be said there.

I suppose ultimately, this commitment to change in some way can usually only come from reaching a point where you've had enough suffering. We need to maintain the faith, trust and sincerity of intent that often follows such a personal declaration. Without those attributes it remains a hard path because you generally (often unconsciously) self-sabotage in order to return things to normal via a short-cut, of which there are many. The 60 element of such a move was/is particularly difficult for me. But limitations also prevent excess or distraction as that commitment proceeds. Without it, it can never deliver and the real opportunity and potential can be lost (28.5) and so too our freedom.

And around we go again on that wheel...

Yup. Commitment. It's a word pregnant with all kinds of growth.

All the best in your own discoveries in subterranea... :bows:

topal said:

I suppose ultimately, this commitment to change in some way can usually only come from reaching a point where you've had enough suffering. We need to maintain the faith, trust and sincerity of intent that often follows such a personal declaration. Without those attributes it remains a hard path because you generally (often unconsciously) self-sabotage in order to return things to normal via a short-cut, of which there are many.

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yes, I know what you mean and the underlined its the only way I know it works. Sometimes I wonder if there is another easier way .. 30.5 , 10.5 and 40.6 were the lines helped me a lot to go into the jungle. I didn't only imagine the visual of 40.6 but I needed to paint it too, become a part of it and then start painting other images. I only kept one, the first and feels like entering in the jungle and the way in became the way out. Its not very beautiful , but for me was the deceleration of that commitment.

There was a lots of suffering- physical and emotional and couldn't get an answer to the "why's" and then suddenly the why's evaporate and maybe like in 49.5 you get another kind of answer ot better you make up the answer and the meaningless becomes meaningful.

Thank you for your kind wishes. The digging must go on

You sound peaceful. Enjoy your ride on the tiger's back

topal said:

And around we go again on that wheel...

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my h49

"On your own day You are believed."

I cast 10.5 again for a question and hence am revisiting this thread. Now I understand Trojina's wisdom in reply #8 in which she said:

Going back to experiences with 10.5, My own experience with 10.5, and what I have observed of others is that you need to assess whether it's worth tackling this tiger or not.

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...

Surely a lot of thought is required before taking on a tiger. To repeat, your heart must be in it 100 %.

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The previous time involved something quite connected to my heart. This time involves a situation which appeals to my intellect. However when I ask my heart about it, well, "It just doesn't have that swing."; it is probably not worth risking being mauled.

And an image came to me reminiscent of sooo's rattlesnake-lined path in reply #5. H 10.5 < 38 may be like walking through a minefield. And with my reading two years ago it may have been wise to stop and consider the possibility of a different path to the goal ---- the longer, slower route as Topal mentions above. Hindsight lets me believe that the minefield of the path I trod would have been cleared by someone else. But now I understand enough to stop and think like Trojina so aptly suggests.

Thanks to all.

This is a very enlightening thread on 10.5, I appreciate all the input in this thread. I am currently dealing with a 10.5 situation among many others and this thread has really helped. It deserves to not be buried as its information is sublime.

Tohpol said:

Had I given in I think I could have given the Tiger a back rub and even tickled his whiskers and got away with it but the end result wouldn't have been worth the trouble. And I would have had a Tiger none too pleased about an end to his back rubs... : )

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I remember reading this thread as I was deciding whether or not to fully commit to a relationship (the one that has been subject of all my threads), and feeling like I had no choice but to confronr the Tiger, as I was already in the jungle...to run away would be to make the Tiger into an enemy, and it was not domesticated enough to trust in any way, or something.

Anyways, this is EXACTLY the situation I ended up in, and am in right now, requiring extraordinary care not to get mauled, even though the Tiger promises they would never...at the slightest cease to their back rubs there is such a tantrum I am having to very gently ease off the care, knowing there is a point at which they will snap back into their feral nature anyways, when I really decide to leave. Despite all claims to the contrary.

I will say if I had been able to give up and become the person desired, and push myself, I could have won the "goal" which was a business & creative partnership.
It may have actually been good, but was pretty one sided. And it never came to be I focused on the negative a lot, let resentment and anger eat up my energy and stopped caring for myself to the point of sickness. Got attached and going through all the cycles of grief that the tiger was just not a dog, that they would always have the capacity and will to destroy, and I could never feel fully safe in their arms except as a strange pet. Perhaps a gifted trainer could build trust with them, as he could keep that respect of their original nature.

In fact, I think if I had shown more tiger-like qualities in the situation myself, earned their respect, things would have been much easier than the route I did take, which was appealing to sensitive emotions.

Getting back to that quiet "inner certainty" is helping but I made too many mistakes, got a lot of scars from angering and insulting the tiger, refusing to surrender to the experience and keep still.

Tohpol said:

Decisiveness could often mean to NOT engage right then and there but to commit to a longer process where the danger's still present but you've made a 49.5 transformation so that you have the ability and awareness - whether in business, relationships or whatever - to respectfully tread in his kingdom without fear of a claw hooking your backside and tearing off a strip, usually when you least expect it

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In the end, I do not know if it all was worth it. If you think in a transactional way....well maybe for the experience itself, very creatively inspiring in a painful way. You learn to be proud of the scars eventually or they fade into the background of your story. My 10.5 situation is not over, as I just cast it this morning, but I look forward to a future of recovering from the intensity of it.

I have learned much about taking care, retaining gratitude and dignity under pressure, integrity, setting boundaries with tact rather than "bull at the gate" (Yi would repeatedly give me 34, line about the ram stuck in the bushes, when I'd get off track), and not getting lost in my own emotions.

Overall exhausting though. Don't know that I'll tangle with any more tigers for awhile. Learned my lesson.
Let the tigers wrestle each other in the trees!