Thank you Dharma, you hit the nail on the head.

Chris.

Thank you Hilary for your answer to Anon99, you saved me a lot of use of the "*" key ;-)

Chris.

BTW Hilary,

IDM does not replace, it coexists with the specialisations and as such aids in their refinement. Dont confuce IC+ with IDM - IC+ is MY specialisation of the IC based upon using the IDM material as a guide through the general to flesh-out the particular.

Chris.

Would you like a tissue Chris ?

Its just so sticky isn't it.

Hi, Anonymous -

I'm very impressed by your defense of your own views above. There's a lot of negativity in this thread that needn't be there (and isn't there on many other threads on Clarity) and I think you're handling it quite well.

- Jeff

Kevin,
of course you were being assertive - i had no doubt about that however, you also seemed, imo, overly protective towards this particular querent, and in doing so attempted to control what was in-coming from Chris. why?? as far as i could see, doing so was an ungenerous move on your part that sparked the argument and really could have been avoided, especially in light of the fact that you knew very well who you were dealing with.

even if you had a strong intuition of how much or how little information the querent was capable of grasping, i don't believe it was your place to "tell" Chris how he should comport himself. there was just something very disrespectful about it. simply, you only needed to point out that your method and Chris' were markedly different and allow the querent to choose for herself what made more sense to her (without being coached towards that end, of course)

anyway, it isn't my intent to take sides; i think that everyone here has a tremendous amount to offer in their own unique way. and i'd like to see everyone feel free to continue doing so without having to watch out for, and side-step around, other people's censorship issues. i'm of the belief that we can NOT only be more effective without the snide, back-biting side of our human-nature rearing its (ugly) face, but that it is in our control to do so as well

Peace Everyone...

Hilary,

in going back over the emails for this thread I came across this one:

>
> By Hilary (Hilary) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 01:35 pm:
>
> Chris, I have given a wholly accurate account of the facts.
> I have never breached client confidentiality, and never
> will, and I am profoundly angry that you persist in trying
> to blacken my name in this way.
>

firstly, you replied re the hex 11 event re (1) I had it wrong (In general I dont think so) and (2) I was ejected for other reasons.

I suggested you go back and check the original material since it is still on the midaughter list archives. You obviously dont want to do that. You would rather 'hold your ground' and puff-up with the above attempt to distract, to draw attention away etc etc as if I was attempting to attack you? Why the need to do that? whats the problem with checking the facts? I could be wrong, you could be wrong etc etc and I asked in a simple, non-aggressive manner to 'check the archives' in that I assume you are still a member - simple stuff dudette. Your anger thus now makes me suspicious because you are not 'dumb' which means there is something else driving you here, you attempt to focus back on me, and so AWAY from you, rather than 'solve the problem'!

NOWHERE in my prose has there been the suggestion that you explicitly revealed the name, date of birth, family history, likes and dislikes, allergies and phobias, etc etc of your client. BUT you have had a reputation, in your 'early' years for charging onto lists seeking information that we assume you are going to charge for. IOW you set up a business without knowing your product and 'winged it' from there - and over the years you have developed.

Did you think you could do that without being noticed!? LOL!

My use of the story was to emphasise the need to 'nipe things in the bud' at times and to be 'strong' in the act; make the nipping remembered. Your a good kid, you exploit reasonably well but not good enough to not be noticed ;-)

Now, professionally, in these 'requests for info', if you got a reply then either (a) when you receive the info off a list or in private etc., you give the info for free to your client as you did not know your stuff or (b) you charge the client but share the payment with the person or persons who gave you the information (or at least offer). If not then you come across as exploitive of all who deal with you.... but then I dont think you are *that* 'yang' ;-)

(my core attitude is more protective than exploitive, iow without context pushing I focus on protection through problem solving (and so when people like Kevin, so-called professional psychotherapists, abuse the IC by first being slack in interpretations etc and then being 'passive aggressive' when additional information is supplied to 'balance' out the original distortion, I will move into 'protect' mode - and not just of me, but of the whole IC universe).

To exploit requires me to be in the 'right' context. As such I am not an opportunist (and I use the term in its positive/neutral form in that exploit/protect are built-in to the species. I dont get up to go to sales etc; to be the 'early bird' ;-)) - but that said I can motivate others to be opportunist since it is part of our nature but under-employed in me.

Sooo, may I suggest you chill. ;-)

Chris.

Let's take it to private email. I for one don't care who did what or said what, or what somebody got kicked out of the local mall for, we just need to be able to discuss this stuff, if not civilly, at least on the topic.

Gene

we ARE on topic - 54 : immaturity ;-)

Some anonymous down below had the idea, that the Yi, when consulted, would put one side or view in the right.
I did not think he would. Rather something like "if you see evil people, then beware of wrong yourself", the German rendering of 38.1

So I decided to cast. Only about the quarreling, Hilary defending herself (quite calmly) against lies is a different matter.
I got 14, 1 and 4, changing to 18. Line 1: "avoid associating .. , line 4: not sounding one's drum (and according to Wilhelm line 1 "no relationship to what is harmful" and line 4 "he makes a difference between himself and his neighbor").

Both lines talk about staying clean. 14.4 is not obvious at first sight, but not sounding one's drum gives an indication of staying out, and the line it changes to, 26.4, is about the young bull's horns, which should stay impeccable, because only then he will be good enough for the great sacrifice. I have no idea where the translation of the difference and the neighbor comes from, but in this case it makes sense.

I don't think it says anything about one view being harmful or so. I did not ask about good or bad, about sides, so the answer goes for all parties. It only says "if you think something is not good for you, then stay out of it".

LiSe

Chris - here is the message that introduced the hexagram 11 reading:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Message 1566 of 5158

From: "Hilary Barrett" <hj-barrett@l...>
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 11:51 am
Subject: Re: [Midaughter] a query: how to compare hexagrams

Absolutely.
But I wonder if anyone can help me with this...
Someone wrote to the Yahoo I Ching club having asked for a 'hexagram for the day' and received 11, unchanging. The day was indeed peaceful and harmonious, until his mother had a serious heart attack in the afternoon. Assuming he didn't draw the hexagram upside down by mistake, does anyone have any idea what was going on??

Best wishes,
Hilary<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyone who wants to can presumably sign up as a member at Midaughter and view this message in the archives. Unfortunately the Yahoo club archives that the reading originally came from are no more. I wish you'd made this accusation at the time, rather than waiting to spring it on me now.

I don't just promise (on this site) not to share names of clients, I also promise not to share any details of their readings, even anonymously, without their express permission. If I'd done what you claimed I'd done here, I would have been lying to all my clients, all these years.

Likewise, I never asked for help on a list with a client's reading. People do tend to come to me with questions - especially on feng shui - that I can't answer. In which case I either find the answer for them, tell them where it came from, and pass on their thanks (if any ), or send them to the right person or list to ask.

But this part of it is, as Gene is kindly suggesting , off-topic. If you think I'm the money-grabbing capitalist and incompetent to boot, you're entitled to express that opinion all you like... of course I'd just as soon you expressed it privately, but I doubt you would enjoy that nearly as much as doing it all over the forum that my work pays for...

And LiSe thinks I am 'quite calm'. Hmmm.

By the way, I think Kevin's interpretations in the early part of this thread were very good, and I know they were also the product of a great deal of intense and careful thought. This has nothing to do with his job - in which he makes no use of the I Ching, of course (heaven knows where Chris got that idea) - but everything to do with his character.

Hilary,
one's reputation often speaks loud and clear for itself. others can try to blacken it but the truth is (always) in the pudding, as they say. i have yet to find any lumps inside this cup just sweet, warm and creamy -sometimes vanilla, sometimes chocolate- but always consistent

Dharma ?

I am listening ? not ignoring.

There are things I would say, but they would not further anything.

Peace

--Kevin

Awww... thanks, Dharma

Definitely chocolate, I think, if the amount of the stuff I eat has anything to do with it.

Kevin,
ignoring me or anyone for that matter, isn't who you are. i know you're ALL there and so it's cool... very cool indeed

Hilary,


> But this part of it is, as Gene is kindly suggesting [ ],
> off-topic. If you think I'm the money-grabbing capitalist
> and incompetent to boot, you're entitled to express that
> opinion all you like... of course I'd just as soon you
> expressed it privately, but I doubt you would enjoy that
> nearly as much as doing it all over the forum that my work
> pays for...
>

Firstly nowhere is this said or claimed, YOU are reading into my prose a LOT more than is there and in doing so there is the suggestion of revealing something that concerns you personally. From my perspective on the last few emails you are blackening yourself for no reason! ;-)

Secondly, my comments focus on opportunism and the consequences of., and also focus on your 'early years'. In those comments I have given you credit for your work and 'enthusiasm' and there has been no attempts to 'blacken you' in anyway. What is the problem?

Thirdly, you make the comment here that "I wish you'd made this accusation at the time, rather than waiting to spring it on me now." and yet you recognise that I have told this story before in your previous email of 'every time Chris tells this story'.... IOW I have mentioned this stuff in the past and you have recognised it as such but now it becomes an issue! What is going on? There is more here than is being presented. Are you having some 'personal issues' at the moment?

your starting to be inconsistent - that will not help you. Chill. dont make things worse. Forget it. It was just a story used to emphasise a point re nipping things in the bud. If you go through the rest of the email on midaughter I (a) gave you a hard time about it which led to (b) Mary stepping in and eventually (c) I was expelled. (and to me that ment that she was going along with the 'hexagram for a day' concept and as such was also 'in error')

Chris.

I seem to have let Chris get under my skin. Bad mistake. But it's happened to better and wiser people than I am.

The one truly important thing for me in amongst all this unpleasantness is to make it as clear as I can that I didn't share a client's reading in public. If I've done that well enough to convince everyone except Chris, I rest content.

I never doubted your professional confidentiality, Hilary. Chris evidentially makes a habit of insulting people publicly in their own living rooms during a dinner party. Must be a real popular guy. In the street we used to call that pissing in people?s ears, knowing even an untruth can plant a bad impression in people?s minds through the power of suggestion. I?m sure the girl?s high school locker room has it?s own term for it, which is where his tactics belong.

>
> The one truly important thing for me in amongst all this
> unpleasantness is to make it as clear as I can that I didn't
> share a client's reading in public.

I never said you did. my reference was to the "hexagram for a day" and that, to me, is not a reading. For whatever reasoning you have Hilary, you are making a mountain out of a molehill - me thinks you protest too much (and refer to my "thirdly" section in my last post)

If you choose to misinterpret what I have clearly stated then I suggest you give up divining for a while since you seem to see a lot in things that is not there and that is not useful for your clients.

'hugs and kisses'

Chris.

Candid,

do you know what brown-nosing is? if not, find out because you seem to be doing it.

Chris.

Dear Dharma,

Outing myself as I were not able to express myself well:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Meanwhile I asked the Yi: "What the heck do I have to do with that quarelling here?"

And I received 7, The Army, unchanged, (too).

Dharma, we crossposted (I had not read your last post to Anon99 at the time I wrote).

So I take this answer as another sign for the heavenly humor the Yi shows that often ;-) but I know it's more than that, though...

The legions may well be on the verge of extinction, but until now they are alive and well... ;-)))"<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

I meant that I read from that answer we are both serving in the same army, but with a different style.


<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

I asked the Yi five minutes ago: "I am just wondering, why such capable and nice persons as you are act in a way that could be misunderstood by him as encouraging to do as he had done."

The answer was: 7, The Army, first line changing into 19, Nearing.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I see it now, the answer of the Yi is throwing me back on myself, saying that my army is not moving in the correct order, that means, I am "attacking" the wrong ones. But 19 gives some hope.


As I noted before, I were very upset because I am very grateful to both Kevin and Hilary (Kevin for helping me and a very good friend of mine a lot and being the humble and noble person he is and Hilary for giving this place here a home and for being the great teacher she is). So I overreacted a bit. If Mr. Lofting would have been here at the time I read his words the language I would have used against him would have been at least twice as insulting as his were against this wonderful people. So it was my solidarity with them that made me crazy.

So I misunderstood your words. And regarding the language problem. In German there is the phrase: "Ich wundere mich über..." which means: "I am surprised at..." I am continuing to make the same mistake again and again to muddle this one with the english phrase: "I am wondering why" which actually means quite a different thing. I did it beacause "wondering" and "wundern" have the same roots and therefore sound very similar to each other. Not to mention about a lot of other problems I have with english.

So it should have read: "I am surprised that you, both being the nice and capable persons I see in you, seemingly show an approach toward him which could be misunderstood by him in a way that he feels encouraged to stay and feel free to act as he acted before."

Hope this made me a little clearer.

Greetings and Peace,
Soshin

To Chris: I ask you to ask Hilary to create a permanent link to your site for the informations they hold, but I also ask you to stay true to your words and spare us from the part of your persona which is acting on kindergarden level. I do not think that such a style as you sometimes show is fitting, not only to this site, but to the Yi as awhole. Until you do not change that part of your behaviour, I will ignore you until you attack friends of mine again, which I hope will never happen again. As I say this, the Yi said to you (regarding what I questioned it: "What could help Chris most?" 2, third line changing, changing to 15. Not too bad!

Wishing you well,

Soshin

Dharma, I LOVE you. Ever realized, that you are the person here I learned most from?

Gene, loved your post and your wisdom.

And Soshin: respect for yours

LiSe

Oops, I meant Soshin's PREVIOUS post! Not the last one!!
LiSe

Hey, LiSe!

Thank you, I am trying to learn. But I dont now what is wrong with my last post. Please help!

Thank you!
Soshin

Dear LiSe

As you remained silent, I edited the last post a little. But if your silence was only "accidentally", please feel free to correct me, may it be here openly or per e-mail. I'm really trying to learn and I respect you and your opinion a lot.

Namaste,
Soshin

On the contrary Dharma, certain manoeuvres over the last 4 years by yourself have made it clear to me your intentions are no purer than mine or anyone elses here. But I sure can't be bothered to go on about it much.

Suffice to say you were once an adversary of Chris's, but changed tack in the midst of a little war with candid, where Chris became the pawn.

This is all water under the bridge, but Candid, came off considerably better in my estimation.
That is to say I perceived his intentions to be purer than yours at that time and indeed they remain so. I apologise Candid for bringing this up, its the way I see/saw it.

Can you not see that when you accuse others of passive agression you display that same trait yourself. Your post to me was full of anger. Please don't say that was in my eyes, projection etc I'm soo tired of that line. Oh and reference to age was not a literal but rhetorical question.


No idea what 7, 2 could mean for you here. I wonder why you question your role at Clarity ? What are you really asking in that question ? I would imagine the answer somewhat unknowable for we've no idea how many read this site, what they think or take away from it. Why would you have any kind of fixed role ? You are a participant same as everyone else aren't you.

I would be grateful if on this occasion you could refrain from insulting me, I'm tired. I will be most happy if you don't respond at all. That is often the best way for showing disdain.

Dharma

I am asking you not to leave. It is not my choice of course, but yours, but we've had enough of infighting for a while. Your posts are too useful for me and for others to let personal insults move you. (Or remove you).

A lot of this stuff is "you do that!" "I do not." "Yes, you do." Let's stop worrying about it. The fighting we did as kids, did too, did not, did too, usually went on until our parents said, enough is enough. And we all know the did nots and did too's won't change anything. However, it is in the nature of the human species that they grow primarily through conflict, as sad as that might be. Let's not break apart but pull together. Conflict or no conflict. A lot of hurt egos right now, a lot of wounded pride, and a lot of it simply over misunderstandings of what other people are saying.

There was an old, old star trek show. Where the Clingons and the humans were onboard the enterprise, and they were constantly warring with words. Each time they would show more vehement emotion a peculiar energy cloud in the ship got bigger. They finally figured out the only way to get rid of it was with laughter and love. So they played that part til the energy cloud went away. The laughter and love weakened the energy field so much it went looking for a richer source of fuel. This is a wonderful imagery of something that goes on in daily life. When we show hatred and anger the dark side, as yoda would put it, grows stronger. When we show love, it becomes weaker. The dark side also feeds off of fear. Often it is fear that drives us to move away in these situations. An internal fear that we do not recognize.

I realize that I haven't had the brunt of criticism that others have except in an indirect way. This makes it easier for me. But don't think that I don't feel the forces that are surrounding this issue. They hit me too. One thing that helps me is, I know who I am. I know how and where I am limited and where I am not. That makes it a little tougher (though not impossible) for someone to knock me over.

Get in here and kick *** Dharma. You know you can do it. You gave basically the same advice to Malka. Be sure and strong in yourself in a relationship. A personal one or here on the board.

I hope you will rethink this Dharma. Agree with you or not, a lot of people will benefit from your presence. In any sport the challenger is often criticized, laughed at, made fun of, and told he can't do it, until he wins the prize. Then everyone is full of adulation and admiration, and says, "we knew you had it in you all along."

Gene