I would enjoy hearing folks' reflections on the connection between hexagram 44 and tantra, kundalini, shakti.

The way Karcher translates 44 is something like "The woman is powerful. Don't grasp her. She goes to the King." This reminds me of the image of rising energy. Let her rise. She knows where to go. Take care you don't seize her though she is powerfully attractive. She is bound for the King. Honor her and see that she passes safely.

Rather than Wilhelm's "One should not marry such a maiden", which sounds a little moralistic, Karcher's sounds more like a chivalrous knight.

From what I've read, tantra is about working with desire without seeking gratification.

Any thoughts?

Juicy topic.

44 aside a moment, Tantra can be practiced in different ways. Just as the Kama Sutra is believed to have been written by an ascetic Hindu monk, tantra is meditation. When practiced with a partner, it can be a blissful ascension for both; in fact, it would have to be, which is why it's more rare and difficult to practice with a sexual meditation partner. They need to be on the same page. Traditionally, he leads her by pleasuring her, and her orgasms are many, as she passes through the chakras with each. He, however, withholds his orgasm, and rides her orgasms to each chakra. Tantra masters are typically mature men who aren't athletes in bed, but nonetheless rise above the base, one might say, to the uneaten fruit atop 23.6. She is that fruit, his anima. That's why it can be practiced, as a meditation, alone, or with a typically younger woman. I suspect this was considered fair use of concubines, gifted in mind and body.

Add 44 to this and I'll have to split. Have seen the movie too many times. :bows:

There are modern versions, termed 'energy work' within a sexual context. This can happen quite naturally too, without intentional Tantric activity, but usually a couple gets 'lost in the sauce', a semi-conscious blur of passion, often never leaving the base, and ending in "the little death." This the opposite of tantric sexual practice. Tantra is the art of complete consciousness while experiencing sexual bliss. Eyes are usually open and looking into the partner's eyes. The energy rises, making love from the belly, love from the heart, love from the mind, love, bliss, oneness - within oneself or with another, if one is so fortunate.

And, yes, there is the more rare Big Bang for him too.

I'll offer my opinion of what role 44 can play here. All this essential qi must start somewhere. When awakened, it is usually at the base, and base is where it begins. It is the internal fire in our loins, it is sexual, it is power based, it is instinctive and unrefined, unawakened to higher or more refined vibrations. I think this is the much talked about powerful drives that push our will to want what it wants. This, imo, is a great fire starter, but it's a good distance from self-realization and bliss, which in 44 is the top trigram - heaven.

Both are about restraint leading to a higher existence or lack of restraint leading to a lower one.
Karcher's translation isn't very good at all.
A rigidly literal translation would be more like "emphatically not useful to court (this) woman."
Also, grammatically, this isn't about a woman who is powerful in her own right, like a liberated, self-directed woman. It's about a woman to whom power is given. Otherwise the wording would be reversed.
Ultimately it's not so much about a woman, but a metaphor about any temptation that leads to dissipation.

44 is "a metaphor about any temptation that leads to dissipation"

Yes, I can see this. But is I Ching describing a way of working with danger?

When 44 turns up, many times I think right away "Better stay away", but is there a different way of looking at this? I understand tantra to be about working with experience not based on value judgments but based on relating to the energy dynamics in a situation. So somehow even a dangerous attraction can be used to "wake up".

(By the way, what does "waking up" mean in the context of I Ching?)

I guess the core of my musing is based on this question: so the yin in 44 is powerful. She can topple the kingdom. We are advised not to grasp her, not to marry her. But what should we do instead? Is it better to throw her out? Or to denounce her in front of everyone (as in hexagram 43)? Or is there some stimulating potential in her presence? A fire starter, as Sooo says. Something like the awareness of mortality to keep us focused and humble? And can this dangerously attractive presence propel us? Towards what?

Should we not welcome her in that case? Though with no strings attached?

Bradford, you say that 44 refers to a woman to whom power is given. I take that to mean someone we give away our power to. When we do that, we think that by possessing or grasping that other person we can have the wholeness that we've freely projected onto them. So it's like a man running after his shadow in pursuit of self knowledge. In psychology, we can look at our projections in order to reflect on ourselves. But ultimately we have to acknowledge that all that we have projected belongs to us and not to the other. So it doesn't make sense to grasp the yin nor condemn her.

Kundalini rising ...not necessarily mojo

aureolus said:

I would enjoy hearing folks' reflections on the connection between hexagram 44 and tantra, kundalini, shakti.

The way Karcher translates 44 is something like "The woman is powerful. Don't grasp her. She goes to the King." This reminds me of the image of rising energy. Let her rise. She knows where to go. Take care you don't seize her though she is powerfully attractive. She is bound for the King. Honor her and see that she passes safely.

Rather than Wilhelm's "One should not marry such a maiden", which sounds a little moralistic, Karcher's sounds more like a chivalrous knight....From what I've read, tantra is about working with desire without seeking gratification. Any thoughts?

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Interesting that all responders to this thread have been men, and they've responded to the tantra part of your question. I'd like to take on kundalini shakti sans tantra.

AS a woman who gets 44 frequently in questions about my own direction in life, I do see a connect with kundalini (my Apple just autochanged kundalini to kindling. And that is sort of a wonderful definition. )

Went to a guru for a few years, had "shaktipat," a bestowal of shakti or kundalini energy. And very easily fell into meditative states with deep belly breathing, basically without even trying. I cannot tell you how to do it, as it just happened to me, but here's a link that describes the process. http://www.swamij.com/diaphragmatic-breathing.htm Is this similar to the tantra process?

Energy rises up the spine and the spine includes the body in all its dimensions. How would this relate to 44? Heaven Over Wind. If you consider forceful, almost panting belly breathing wind, it certainly can move your mind and spirit in a heavenly direction. I've heard stories of the body moving through the air too. ("Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" showed those gorgeous impossible flights. )

How would moving mind and spirit manifest? A month or so ago, at a house in the mountains, a particular piece of (yes of course 60's) music was playing "I want to take you higher! (Sly and the Family Stone perhaps?) And I started going into that wonderful deep breathing, said yes to it, added Alexander Technique directions, "Neck free, head forward and up, spine lengthening, back widening," and within maybe 90 seconds, I was high as a kite. My companion was so jealous, he said he would have to take drugs to get that high. What a disappointment for me...he could not get as happy and inspired as the "powerful" maiden, though I know you can take people up with you -- that tantra effect sans sex.

On another night, we were on a hilltop overlooking a river, speaking with the full moon. Same thing happened to me. Not to him. My guru arrived in my mind, said quite clearly, "You are entirely alone." An hour later friend and I were at a casino. I won quite a lot, he did not and was really ticked off. So the upward movement of my psyche perhaps provided me with a certain knowing. Hard to say, but it was quite striking to me that on both occasions he couldn't even be happy for me.

If he'd done what I did, he might have received what I received. But he growled, instead, about how unfair it was. (That relationship is now on hiatus if not permanently dead.)

I learned all of this from gurus who were men. So it's possible for a man to create this upward direction and expansion and delight , and why would that be threatening? It's that macho schtick that pervades Yi. What's the Chinese equivalent?

In the descriptions of tantra, there is a joining, a being with, a sharing, and there could happen on many less sexual levels if men were more aware and less -- less something; is afraid the right word? Reluctant? -- to learn from "mere" women. Who are not supposed to have "power." Who said we weren't?

Let's look at Lise's interpretation: GÒU Heir

Woman power.
No use to grab the woman WHY THE HECK NOT???

The great image says:
Everywhere under Heaven there is Wind: the heir.
The prince carries out his mandate, proclaiming it to the four regions.
Heaven
Wind

Temptation is an interesting thing. It could bring ruin, or it might bring something life giving.
Everyone needs challenges, to awaken the senses, in order to feel fully alive. And who knows what may manifest from it? What 44 represents is that which is powerfully attractive to the ego. It can be a person, an event or something you have unwittingly put into train, which takes off out of control and far beyond your plan.
When we build a structure around us to protect us from 'wrong' and 'bad', we can build a solid life. But what we lose then, is our vulnerability to be freely influenced. That means we also lose our creativity and our receptivity to life's impulses.
Gou is dangerous and seductive, but it brings the birth of the heir.

And what is the heir? A child of course. A product of a collaboration, perhaps. (My fave.) Or a business. An understanding of some sort. A Fabulous Relationship, please God. It's been a long time since men were in charge of everything. Perhaps 44 should be reevaluated in more realistic terms.

Thanks for the excellent, inspiring question

Hi poised,

I focused on Tantra because I don't recall it being brought up before, whereas kundalini has been raised here several times (ha, pun ).

I tried to stress the internal male/female aspect so as not to be taken literally sexually only, though I did not eliminate that this Tantric practice can be practicedl literally with a partner, providing they are both tuned into what they're attempting to do with the base energy they generate, to bring it to higher levels of consciousness rather than the wham/bam, thank you, m'am.

I'm not too keen on making direct comparisons between two different systems, unless it can be somewhat loosely dealt with. But not to too literally tie one system's language and meaning to another. That's why I wasn't too eager to equate tantra, kundalini meditation and Shakti all together as one with 44, though there may be certain subtle likenesses. Though Shakti is a female deity or Goddess and Divine Mother, and the kundalini serpent is represented as a lingus rather than a penis, and a relationship between them can be recognized, I think it's a mistake to tie them all together as referring to the same figurative woman; which exists in men as well as women. I used the term anima, which similarly has likenesses to all the above female references, at least in men, but are not literally or exactly speaking of the same thing. Direct comparisons can mislead, though loose comparisons can be interesting to discuss, imo.

My guess is that we are told not to grasp the woman because when we're grasping something, we're trying to keep from losing it. And that effort is a resistance to continuous change. In other words, "If what you're reaching for is more important to you than the flow of life, it's going to be painful for you because change is inevitable. Nothing stays the same."

The ability to move with change rather than control it.

This article from the Swami J website looks helpful:

http://www.swamij.com/shakti.htm

aureolus said:

My guess is that we are told not to grasp the woman because when we're grasping something, we're trying to keep from losing it. And that effort is a resistance to continuous change. In other words, "If what you're reaching for is more important to you than the flow of life, it's going to be painful for you because change is inevitable. Nothing stays the same."

The ability to move with change rather than control it.

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My favourite example of 44 is from a reading by Knot where it referred to jumpstarting a car....it's powerful, it gets the car moving, but you can't go on and on jumpstarting it. You use the power of the 'coupling' for just a short while then let it go. So whatever 44 refers to you can't marry it as a thing to permanently be a way forward, you can't grasp it in that sense. You might embrace it briefly for it's energy, it might have the power to move something along or change it...or it may not, depends on what it comes up as in your life. Can be a useful or intrusive invasion of the 'norm' , a disruption of the 'status quo' of a situation and that may be welcome or unwelcome. No idea if that is intrinsically connected to Tantra etc. Maybe ask Yi about Tantra and see what answer appears...might be interesting ?

44 as a jumpstart. That echoes sooo's calling it "a great fire starter". The initiating spark.

Also when someone is getting electrocuted, aren't they in a way stuck to the current? They can't pull away. They've become part of the circuit. It would be good advice not to grasp such a woman.

Here's another take on 44:

Love the illustration. I wonder who she's going to meet? A priest? The king? An interview with a potential boss? She doesn't appear the least bit interested in the regular Joe horny toads whose attention she's enraptured.

Wisdom in action

Great photo. From the perspective of the fire-starting woman, it's sad, disturbing, tragic. How lonely such a woman must be. Should she walk around in a burqa?

Actually, she looks composed and natural, being who she is. If the men are being who they are, they are all about three years old. Why such fear? Embarrassment? Their physical postures say they are blocking the upward flow, the kundalini, the excitement, the energy, the maturity. The grace, if you will. She is graceful, natural. They are slouching, distorted.

What would happen to them if they let themselves stand up straight? Let their own natural energy flow? Why so self-limiting? Why aren't they more upstanding? And perhaps even outstanding? Wouldn't that be wisdom in action?

I use "stand up straight" in every sense: physically, emotionally, intellectually, morally. It seems all the same. Letting in, developing the physical upward thrust of kundalini may be the easiest place to start the process of "meeting" that powerful energy.

In Alexander Technique, my fave self-development path, one learns to direct energy up the spine and out in an arc thru the universe. Out thru the fingertips and toes. It's about "The use of the self (Self) as it manifests in the body."

Kundalini energy flows. Perhaps not "grasping it" means NOT stopping it. Letting it flow. Even directing the flow.

Thanks sooo, Anima R Us (no pun?)

sooo said:

I think it's a mistake to tie them all together as referring to the same figurative woman; which exists in men as well as women. I used the term anima, which similarly has likenesses to all the above female references, at least in men, but are not literally or exactly speaking of the same thing. Direct comparisons can mislead, though loose comparisons can be interesting to discuss, imo.

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Indeed, sooo.

I have no objection to sexual tantra. It certainly adds to this discussion. And to life. Just saying, why stop there?

That upward flow in the body can inspire/fuel art or intellectual achievement or building a better mousetrap of any sort. Or winning a race or, or, or...

To grasp it? Grasping suggests a physical clenching. If I am sitting at my computer responding to you and can't find the right word, I notice that I stiffen up. Concentration sets in. Ossification.

Remember the wonderful Rodin statue of The Thinker? No coincidence that he created it to sit atop the Gates of Hell.

http://www.musee-rodin.fr/en/collections/sculptures/gates-hell

Let that powerful woman --anima--flow, like the river of light and life and joy and creation that she can be.

poised said:

Remember the wonderful Rodin statue of The Thinker? No coincidence that he created it to sit atop the Gates of Hell.

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Thank you, poised, I did not know that.

I think that these things happen naturally, or else life becomes tasteless and bland, still and spoiled.

To deliberately manipulate the qi is exiting, sexually, mentally, spiritually; however one prefers, is dangerous. This, plus The Thinker image sitting upon the gates of hell seem to strongly favor Bradford's restraint meaning. It's heaven's commands which are spread in all directions, not the wind's. The wind carries the commands perhaps, but she doesn't call the shots, any more than a river runs because it wants to.

Quote Originally Posted by poised View Post

Remember the wonderful Rodin statue of The Thinker? No coincidence that he created it to sit atop the Gates of Hell.

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I borrowed this to pass along to my brother yesterday. Without revealing private details, he needs to think through some big changes. So, thanks again. I love the imagery. :bows:

On the image posted, yesterday I was thinking more about it, and what those guys needed most was restraint. The tension in the picture (and the woman) was due to their lack of it.

Restraint and/or Release

sooo said:

On the image posted, yesterday I was thinking more about it, and what those guys needed most was restraint. The tension in the picture (and the woman) was due to their lack of it.

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Hi sooo/meng: Restraint. I see your point, at least for the men who are acting out. Other men are slouching, sway-backed, bellies out. A natural posture for very young children, which some of us revert to as we age. Both the rather unnatural movements of the flirting fellows and the collapsed slouch of the older men show impeded energy flow.

Yes, I'm forty-fourishly married to my own viewpoint. But I do see with well-trained eyes.

Also, found this at DeKorne: "the symbolism of the forty-fourth hexagram, reiterating the great truth that when emotions make the choices, the unity of the psyche is compromised."

So looking again at the photo of the woman and all those men, who exhibits emotion? She is clear, they are saying things like: depression, embarrassment, fear.

Have to run off to my daughter's house for the weekend, meanwhile, I'll think some more about this very interesting hexagram. Have a nice day, don't think too hard:
http://legionofhonor.famsf.org/files/imagecache/exhibition_preview_large/THINKER_side_columns.jpg

Oh yes, you might think of restraining the impediments to letting your energy flow. Just say no to the slouch. The clench. The rigidity.

sooo said:

I think that these things happen naturally, or else life becomes tasteless and bland, still and spoiled.

To deliberately manipulate the qi is exiting, sexually, mentally, spiritually; however one prefers, is dangerous.

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Point taken. How about "allowing" the qi to flow where it wants to go, which is upward in the human body. Let it flow, don't grasp. Such delicate awareness, to just notice.

poised said:

Point taken. How about "allowing" the qi to flow where it wants to go, which is upward in the human body. Let it flow, don't grasp. Such delicate awareness, to just notice.

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Fascinating. Does qi want to go anywhere, or is that up to our genetics and personal ideology and vision?

I usually say, write what wants to be said, when it comes to creative writing or oracle reading. So I see your point.

poised said:

Other men are slouching, sway-backed, bellies out. A natural posture for very young children, which some of us revert to as we age. Both the rather unnatural movements of the flirting fellows and the collapsed slouch of the older men show impeded energy flow.

Yes, I'm forty-fourishly married to my own viewpoint. But I do see with well-trained eyes.

Also, found this at DeKorne: "the symbolism of the forty-fourth hexagram, reiterating the great truth that when emotions make the choices, the unity of the psyche is compromised."

So looking again at the photo of the woman and all those men, who exhibits emotion? She is clear, they are saying things like: depression, embarrassment, fear.

Have to run off to my daughter's house for the weekend, meanwhile, I'll think some more about this very interesting hexagram. Have a nice day, don't think too hard:
http://legionofhonor.famsf.org/files/imagecache/exhibition_preview_large/THINKER_side_columns.jpg

Oh yes, you might think of restraining the impediments to letting your energy flow. Just say no to the slouch. The clench. The rigidity.

Click to expand...

Nice. Had to laugh at the young boy/old man slouch. Gives it a sort of Norman Rockwell realism, to me. Acting out, yes, even if it was their inner monkey mind which was showing through. In such case, raising the bar a few notches couldn't hurt.

hey poised, hey meng

with such a strong hexagram as 44, I think it's often difficult to find the golden mean into its meaning - bad or not? dangerous or just powerful? maybe this difficulty is part of its allure too . .

From time to time I've had drawn up correspondences of 44 to actual stories or myths: one of them was the history behind Anne Boleyn (strong woman beheaded) and queen Elizabeth (strong woman turning herself into a sacred symbol reigning); examples of 44 going bad or turning fruitful.

Lately I've been reading again about one of the most important myths for me, the ancient greek one about Medusa and I think there's again an interesting parallel to some of the issues running thru hx44, especially since it combines the same mix of desire-compulsion-repulsion that 44 puts into motion

Of course most of us know of Medusa as the beheaded snake haired monster that turns everyone who looks at it into stone, yet, as the story goes, Medusa used to be an extremely beautiful woman, a priestess in Athena's temple, who succumbed to Poseidon's desire and mated with him inside the temple, causing the goddess's rage who turned Medusa into a monster and later on helped Perseus cut off her head and use it as a protective talisman placed on Athena's shield.

The notion of Medusa, the 'snake-goddess' comes from before the dominance of male gods in Mediterranean cultures and it's interesting to consider the etymology of her name, which meant 'powerful female mind/cunning' (how's that for linking her into 44?)

To make a long story short, nowadays Medusa's symbol is often found in fashion, it being appropriated by Versace (also known for creating the image of a powerful female), while it used to be incorporated in the outer walls of houses, again as protection.

I think that the big, fat, obvious clue about 44 is in infusing its raw strength with the discerning and insightful nature that comes when one comes into it from the spiritual aspects of life (and, yes, I know the quandaries of the word 'spiritual', yet if you think of the sacred vessel of hx50, it rather clears things up).
In the myth of Medusa, the importance of respect & sanctity (tarnished or revered) is a major theme: terror for those who dare take upon themselves the female goddess power with no thought, yet redemption and protection for those who can subtly tame it and use it as talisman . . the same, I'd like to think, is what can happen with the maiden in 44; it's not so much about 'letting it do its thing', imo, but about cultivating its potential, protecting yourself and protecting it, too, from the havoc it could create if let run unencumbered

Btw, about kundalini, I remember a thread about it in the past, where it was described by Yi as 26 . . from what I know about the power and problems kundalini can raise, hx26, in its use of long-standing tradition to put dangerous animals to use, seems like a most fitting hexagram for a fruitful connection with it

44 makes me think of the use of hallucinogenics as done in some long standing traditions &rituals . . it seems to come with the same 'do-not-try-this-at-home-unless-you-really-know-what-you're-doing' warning sign

rodaki said:

44 makes me think of the use of hallucinogenics as done in some long standing traditions &rituals . . it seems to come with the same 'do-not-try-this-at-home-unless-you-really-know-what-you're-doing' warning sign

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Good likeness. The line between bliss and mental damage can be thin.