Your Experiences with Unchanging Castings-Hexagram 30

Trojina · Nov 25, 2013

I'm not clear about hexagram 30, Clarity, such a great mish mash of images that gather around it. Cows ...fires, nets...

It's a hexagram people can explain till the cows come home (no pun intended) and I'd still be none the wiser in terms of applying the answer to a real life question.

So 30 uc ? I looked for experiences and don't seem to have many. Where I have listed 30 as an answer, the questions I posed were asking for predictions for fairly unlikely scenarios, they were somewhat whimsical questions. What my questions had in common was that they were not especially connected with my present reality. I don't know what to make of that...except if I look at Wing's words below I might see that I needed to ask myself how connected up the topic of my question was with the actual context of my life. For example...if one asked "will I win an Oscar ?" this might be a fairly floaty kind of question if one were not an actor ! (I didn't ask that but BTW but the questions were a bit floaty, a bit unhinged or remote from the context of my life)
Maybe it's that I needed to see , see what fuelled, and sustained my existing existence for such a question to have a context.

I very much like how Bradford H writes of 30 ....gives the idea of dancing light, energy, awareness, hiding, moving, slipping in and out of shadow and form. I'll quote him

"Flaming beauty consuming the present, is mounted on flames consuming the past. Sunshine hides to rise again. It hides in the logs to flame again. It hides in the grass, in the salad, in the silos, in the cow, in the steak, and it flames up again as mind in the beings. The flame is not feeding on fuel, it is or was the fuel, sunlight mingled with water and wind."

If I've received 30uc as an answer though I don't really know how to take it. That's probably why I have no very clear examples, though I'm beginning to see the context/fuel idea. Sun is 'held' in wood, light captured and returned as fire when the wood is burned.

Wing says

"The hexagram SYNERGY is composed of the trigram, LI, dependence, doubled. Dependence below, furthering and co-operating with dependence above, will bring clarity to the situation. In an unchanging form, you must concentrate upon aligning the many elements in your life into synergetic accord in order to fully comprehend and control them. Goals, loved ones, career, and health : Do they all work together ? Do they relate ? Do they further one another ? By achieving inner clarity, you bring enlightenment to the world"

Hmmm yes there's a lot of ideas about what hexagram 30 is about but not a lot of examples of how it might actually play out, in it's unchanging form, as an answer.

I'm hoping someone has something to relate of how 30 unchanging manifested for them ?

knotxx · Nov 26, 2013

There are two contexts where I see 30uc. One is a rather simple one--when I've been trying to understand something--often working out what a reading means, actually--but still am not sure. So I sort of say my understanding back to yi as if to say: is this correct understanding? When I get 30uc to that question (as has happened a number of times), that seems to indicate a YES -- like, yes, some clear-seeing there, you and the reading are interacting clearly.

In that specific "do I understand" sense, 30uc can sometimes feel like a "yes" to me, the way 11uc can.

(Sometimes I wonder though--and this is probably a different topic--if that's a private shorthand the yi and I have developed just because it's something I GET (the way lovers or families or old friends develop little private shorthand languages based on all their time together). 47 is another hexagram which I OFTEN get to mean something like "you are closing yourself into a tight little box of anxiety and pain and indecision that you don't need to be in, at all." But I don't hear other people talking about that self-caused 47 state so much, so sometimes I wonder if it's just me!)

Anyway. The other, much different way I've seen 30uc -- and I agree that 30 has way too much going on! fire, birds, cows, what?--is in two questions about inexplicable long-term relationships. One was a friend of mine who had this ongoing, TERRIBLE relationship with a guy, they were in a constant state of FURY with each other for something like 12 years. I asked about them and got 30uc.

Another time I asked why in the world I had stayed working for the same guy for over 20 years when our relationship, while not as bad as the one above, was somewhat fraught and I hadn't been happy at the job for years. Also 30uc.

In both those relationships it almost seemed like something karmic was being struggled through--or if not karma, then we had somehow fed into each other's psyches to create this inextricable perpetual motion machine of flame feeding flame feeding flame. (Or maybe that's karma!)

rosada · Nov 27, 2013

The Image to me looks like two cells sitting side by side - two adults, equals, neither has dominance over the other.

hilary · Nov 27, 2013

Knot, your examples are baffling! Unless you and the ill-matched couple were in the process of becoming aware, and not able to do anything with it/ find any alternative? Maybe a sort of glaring intensity - all devastatingly clear, and nowhere to go? (Nuclear hexagram 28.)

The only 30 uc I can find is a tennis reading - prospects for Nadal in the 2010 Wimbledon final. He won in straight sets - outclassed his opponent pretty straightforwardly. I don't know if it's relevant that Nadal's style of play is to try to win every point, chase every ball,non-stop blazing energy. Other players will make sensible calculations like, 'Hm, I'm losing this game, better relax now and save my energy to ensure I win the next one, not waste it chasing after a lost cause here.' Nadal doesn't appear to. When he has injury problems (which in 2010 he didn't), they're because the human frame isn't designed to keep withstanding those kinds of forces; the commentariat is fond of saying his career can't possibly last as long as Federer's.

Trojina · Nov 27, 2013

Knot's examples

two questions about inexplicable long-term relationships. One was a friend of mine who had this ongoing, TERRIBLE relationship with a guy, they were in a constant state of FURY with each other for something like 12 years. I asked about them and got 30uc.

Another time I asked why in the world I had stayed working for the same guy for over 20 years when our relationship, while not as bad as the one above, was somewhat fraught and I hadn't been happy at the job for years. Also 30uc

They don't seem so baffling to me. Both partners were dependent on the other's fuel, flame to flame. Dependence burning each other out. I think I have seen 30 as addictive propensities. Hexagram 30 is also called 'clinging' somewhere isn't it ? 'Clinging Fire', . Fire sure clings ! So this can be a healthful dependence or the flipside a clinging voracious fire of an addiction.

There's 2 sides to 30 .... ...maybe that accounts for the mish mash of imagery in it

Who calls it 'clinging' ? I can't recall

knotxx · Nov 27, 2013

Unless you and the ill-matched couple were in the process of becoming aware, and not able to do anything with it/ find any alternative? Maybe a sort of glaring intensity - all devastatingly clear, and nowhere to go?

Maybe--that does make some sense. But I feel that if things had been all that clear, we would not have been (in both cases) so STUCK together. In fact, in both cases we were pried apart only by lightning strikes--I was pried out of that job by a stroke of astonishing good fortune, and that relationship ended when one half of the couple died in a car accident. The unchangingness of 30 in that situation did have a clinging feel, like a cycle you can't break out of. I think it's Wilhelm who calls 30 The Clinging, isn't it?

anemos · Nov 27, 2013

i try since yesterday to recall any experience re 30. Its very weird because I have no clear recollections- feels like something is consumed in the process.

The idea I have for 30 is "live lives on life" and the image of a burning phoenix. There is a transformation happens in 30 not in the ways 49, 50, 59 describe. Also it feels like the epitome of interdependence - again not the ways 8,45, 3 etc describe.... What is the spirit of 30 is not yet clear to me.

The net bring in mind the modern illustrations of networks - the nodes (knots) and the links between them.

I found this particular part extremely intriguing. I think Knot is into something here. Can't tell yet what but there is something there.

knot said:
In both those relationships it almost seemed like something karmic was being struggled through--or if not karma, then we had somehow fed into each other's psyches to create this inextricable perpetual motion machine of flame feeding flame feeding flame. (Or maybe that's karma!)

there was a discussion about family trees involving 4 generations and it was amazing how patterns appear clear , how "debts" are create and how "obligations" to pay them also. You can see the 29 patterns in the previous generation , how the pass down to the next ones and how this patterns play out in our present sometimes again and again till we "consume" them.

Double water , double fire appear at the end of part one Of Yi. I wonder if there is a special significance as it is a duality resembles the heaven/earth one. There is something alchemical in this pair and it feels like you reach at the edge of the world and there is a gap and have to jump to the next one... like the 63/64 pair.

anemos · Nov 27, 2013

rosada said:
The Image to me looks like two cells sitting side by side - two adults, equals, neither has dominance over the other.

interesting visual.

devoutly · Nov 27, 2013

knot said:
Maybe--that does make some sense. But I feel that if things had been all that clear, we would not have been (in both cases) so STUCK together. In fact, in both cases we were pried apart only by lightning strikes--I was pried out of that job by a stroke of astonishing good fortune, and that relationship ended when one half of the couple died in a car accident. The unchangingness of 30 in that situation did have a clinging feel, like a cycle you can't break out of. I think it's Wilhelm who calls 30 The Clinging, isn't it?

Yes, Wilhelm it is. When something fitting comes to mind, that generally seems to be where it's from.

Clinging, holding together - tenacity? I can see a small connection there between your clinging couple and Nadal's style of play: can’t be stopped or torn loose except by some external force (car crash, tendonitis of the knee)

anemos said:
i try since yesterday to recall any experience re 30. Its very weird because I have no clear recollections- feels like something is consumed in the process.

The idea I have for 30 is "live lives on life" and the image of a burning phoenix. There is a transformation happens in 30 not in the ways 49, 50, 59 describe. Also it feels like the epitome of interdependence - again not the ways 8,45, 3 etc describe.... What is the spirit of 30 is not yet clear to me.

The net bring in mind the modern illustrations of networks - the nodes (knots) and the links between them.

I found this particular part extremely intriguing. I think Knot is into something here. Can't tell yet what but there is something there.

there was a discussion about family trees involving 4 generations and it was amazing how patterns appear clear , how "debts" are create and how "obligations" to pay them also. You can see the 29 patterns in the previous generation , how the pass down to the next ones and how this patterns play out in our present sometimes again and again till we "consume" them.

Double water , double fire appear at the end of part one Of Yi. I wonder if there is a special significance as it is a duality resembles the heaven/earth one. There is something alchemical in this pair and it feels like you reach at the edge of the world and there is a gap and have to jump to the next one... like the 63/64 pair.

Yes. They're like 63/64, just a different way to combine the same trigrams. (There's a beautiful trigram-mirroring pattern surrounding them, too.)

I'm getting a feel for 29 as the way experiences can carve and scour you out. The two really are woven together... the 'holding fast'/ 'connected' of 29 has the components 'thread' and 'bird'; the 'rearing' of cattle in 30 has the component 'profound, dark'. The suns are bathed and renewed in the chasms every day. Hm... the bright glaringly-manifest patterns emerge from the most deeply-carved hidden things?

Trojina · Nov 27, 2013

Either Devoutly is Hilary or Devoutly cleaves so closely to Hilary's writing style they are impossible to prise apart.

anemos · Nov 27, 2013

trojan said:
So 30 uc ? I looked for experiences and don't seem to have many. Where I have listed 30 as an answer, the questions I posed were asking for predictions for fairly unlikely scenarios, they were somewhat whimsical questions. What my questions had in common was that they were not especially connected with my present reality. I don't know what to make of that...except if I look at Wing's words below I might see that I needed to ask myself how connected up the topic of my question was with the actual context of my life. For example...if one asked "will I win an Oscar ?" this might be a fairly floaty kind of question if one were not an actor ! (I didn't ask that but BTW but the questions were a bit floaty, a bit unhinged or remote from the context of my life)
Maybe it's that I needed to see , see what fuelled, and sustained my existing existence for such a question to have a context.

I need your help here to understand.... was like looking for a meaning or understand WHY that clinging with whatever was your question about ?

Trojina · Nov 27, 2013

anemos said:
I need your help here to understand.... was like looking for a meaning or understand WHY that clinging with whatever was your question about ?

No, neither of those. I just meant the only journal entries I had for 30 uc were answering questions that seemed remote from the actual context of my life.

Like, now in hindsight they seem bonkers questions about things that couldn't happen given my life situation.

Let me think of another example...it might be like asking "shall I buy a Jacuzzi ?" when I have just a tiny bathroom in a small flat that cannot hold a Jacuzzi.

weird example that just came to mind, that wasn't something I actually asked.

I'm not saying I'm sure hex 30 was asking me to consider the context of the question....I'm not sure what it meant. I was just sharing the only examples I had of when I received 30uc

That's the funny thing with 30, amusingly named 'Clarity' I reckon no one really knows what it means when they get it as an answer to a specific question.

I mean everyone can roughly grasp what it means in the abstract, in theory etc etc....but when we look at actual examples as it played out in our lives it's not clear at all. I can't think of a single time where I received hexagram 30 and understood it as answer for my question.

The purpose of these threads is particulary to find answers through our experiences ....so far in this thread we are all pretty unclear aren't we ?

You say

i try since yesterday to recall any experience re 30. Its very weird because I have no clear recollections- feels like something is consumed in the process

I think it is the same for everyone. That is it seems our recollections aren't terribly clear...or even if they are it's still open to question how 30 applied

Trojina · Nov 27, 2013

rosada said:
The Image to me looks like two cells sitting side by side - two adults, equals, neither has dominance over the other.

But can you recall any times you received 30uc as an answer to your question ?

Trojina · Nov 27, 2013

I think it is the same for everyone

.

that's gotta provoke someone to say how they got 30uc about a question and how they saw it play out quite clearly :mischief:

anemos · Nov 27, 2013

unreasonable is a word jumps out and there must be a reading of mine - i have this tip-of-the -tongue thing now. ..

it supposed to mean while being in the dark , light-bulb is on and AHA !!! Suddenly all are connected and we make sense - theoretically

anemos · Dec 1, 2013

I remembered !!!!

was talking to a friend earlier and here , borrowing a tagline from a TV series , we use the word " unreasonable".. anyways... I knew the Jacuzzi - rational was relevant hence that word jumped out.

#1 : talking with someone and suddenly they say " and You believe X... " I was

because the whole issue was exactly because I believed the opposite. Was that self evident that didn't knew how to handle it. Its like been outside, in the sky a bright sun and you asked to prove its not night and the most "brilliant" thing seems you can say its "umm... when the sun is up then its daytime" . Yi said I better h30 which i read as clarify. I did and they indeed realized that was a false impression.

#2. Again something irrational/unreasonable , again asked Yi and got 30. I thought was again 'clarify'. I talked to a friend also about this incident and their pov was " don't even bother to explain the obvious". In retrospect I guess friend and Yi was on the same line and an effort to clarify didn't helped at all.

Seems there is an embedded ambiguity in this gua, maybe the gap between the lines. Seems that some hexes create an energy field with specific traits... in memorizing threads has been observed too. That 'separate" and " cling" of 30 causes some confusion .. maybe its the trouble and the solution at the same time so one can make his own mind.

Somewhere brad said in his book explain Li . haven't check it yet cause didn't want to influence my "memories". I'll look up for it now...

Hope those keeping a journal will enlighten us .

hilary · Dec 1, 2013

trojan said:
Either Devoutly is Hilary or Devoutly cleaves so closely to Hilary's writing style they are impossible to prise apart.

Er, yes. Oops, sorry. I was making test logins by the dozen, testing some especially recalcitrant forms for Flow of Change, and managed to post as one of them.

Trojina · Dec 1, 2013

Seems there is an embedded ambiguity in this gua, maybe the gap between the lines. Seems that some hexes create an energy field with specific traits... in memorizing threads has been observed too. That 'separate" and " cling" of 30 causes some confusion .. maybe its the trouble and the solution at the same time so one can make his own mind.

Yes, I think this is true.

rosada · Dec 1, 2013

I too can't remember the specific questions that have lead me to 30, only the strong impression that the answer meant I was dealing with someone or some situation where there was a sense of equality in the viewpoints or the choices and no guidance as to which was righter or better. Like, here's the bathroom, here's the jacuzi - you do the math.
I think it's interesting that 31. Influence comes next in the sequence as if to say, when two people are evenly matched, someone has to intentionally relax, open up and take in the other one's point of view.

Trojina · Dec 1, 2013

One thing seems true and that is hexagram 30 as an answer to a specific question we asked doesn't seem to lead to 'aha' moments....it's not immediately recognisable as an answer in the situation...unlike for example 5 unchanging...I haven't searched the forums though. maybe someone somewhere got 30uc and immediately knew what it meant as an answer

knotxx · Dec 2, 2013

hexagram 30 as an answer to a specific question we asked doesn't seem to lead to 'aha' moments....it's not immediately recognisable as an answer in the situation

well except in my cases where I saw 30uc as a sort of confirmatory answer--I felt that lightbulb someone mentioned go off, asked yi to comment on my understanding, and got 30uc. In those cases I took it as a sort of "you are seeing clearly" confirmation, and that has seemed to play out correctly.

I've posted about this elsewhere on this forum, but years ago I asked yi "what can you tell me about understanding the world through you" and got 1.2.5-30. I loved that answer so much, and it has stuck with me -- as if the yi is this sort of 30-ish pair of spectacles you can put on to see the great dragons of heaven -- one eye seeing them on earth and one eye seeing them above, at the same time. Ever since then I often get a sense of 30uc as a pair of spectacles.

Trojina · Dec 21, 2013

http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2008/12/01/clarity-from-chasms/

that seemed a useful Blog post for this pair

also I take the liberty of copying Luis's comment on that post

Luis Andrade Says:

December 1st, 2008 at 6:58 pm

The light that’s visible on water is a reflection of fire.
The moon is visible only because the sun sheds light over it.
29 is longing; 30 is fulfilling.
30 traps while 29 is the giving medium that goes through it.
29 needs the heat of 30 to keep its state and thus it clings to it.
Still, they must, as in a dance, balance each other lest they change each other’s nature.
Water is a kind of sublimated fire while a kind of fire is imploding water.
29 and 30 are symmetrical together.

I like that

iams girl · Feb 28, 2014

My 30 uc reading could be summed up as feeling "under the microscope" while an issue painfully resolved step by step.

For me, it related to a work situation. I'd made a mistake at the end of the prior week which caused my new manager much grief over the weekend stressing over how it made his department look. I'd had to initiate conversation with him at the beginning of the week because he was giving me the cold shoulder and not talking to me. At least he was willing to have a conversation though when I approached him and he even admitted he found out from his supervisors that what I had done was no big deal. Due to his damaged ego though, it resulted in my being required to write an formal apology letter later that week to him and his supervisor. The saving grace for me was the other staff members rallying around me like family during the week and even helping me write the letter.

Owlietta · Feb 28, 2014

I asked "is the i ching worth consulting?" and received 30, unchanging.

Trojina · Feb 28, 2014

The I Ching said "of course it is you donut !".

Yes it never was a respectful Oracle.

moss elk · Feb 28, 2014

In my experiences 30 unchanging has meant something like:
"Yes, that's right, now you understand. The sun is shining and you see this issue clearly"

Other times it has meant something like:
"It's alright to go ahead and shine, no need to hide it" (like in 36)

sooo · Feb 28, 2014

A neat thing about the bird of brightness is that it can be caught even in the dark, if one is quick enough (opportunistic) and has a wide enough net.

iams girl · Mar 1, 2014

I just noticed in a recent 21 reading how the trigram Li relates to yielding (I'm still learning). 30uc being double Li, imo there's a good discussion about it on this thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?12777-Hexagram-30:

tuckchang said:
The text of the hexagram Li highlights that humans must cling to what is righteous and nourish the docility (i.e. submissiveness) of the cow, i.e. not only to cling to what is righteous but also be submissive in clinging to it. Therefore it is advantageous (or appropriate) to persist (in righteousness); (which will lead things to) smooth progress. To herd (i.e. to put together, to feed and make them grow stronger) the cow, (which is) auspicious.

Which I think brings up the nature of my relationship to my manager in the 30uc reading as well. Because I needed the job, 30uc was important in helping me navigate his bad reactions that week by yielding to higher values. However, I didn't want to work there after that and he ultimately lost my respect. In a different situation, because mistakes are unavoidable, if he'd given me the opportunity to discuss things and work together on making changes, I would have wanted all the more to stay there and be part of his team.

anemos · Mar 1, 2014

iams girl said:
My 30 uc reading could be summed up as feeling "under the microscope" while an issue painfully resolved step by step.

You took 30 as clarify , iams girl ?

anemos · Mar 1, 2014

iams girl said:
For me, it related to a work situation. I'd made a mistake at the end of the prior week which caused my new manager much grief over the weekend stressing over how it made his department look. I'd had to initiate conversation with him at the beginning of the week because he was giving me the cold shoulder and not talking to me. At least he was willing to have a conversation though when I approached him and he even admitted he found out from his supervisors that what I had done was no big deal. Due to his damaged ego though, it resulted in my being required to write an formal apology letter later that week to him and his supervisor. The saving grace for me was the other staff members rallying around me like family during the week and even helping me write the letter.

looking more carefully in that, I see it as a really nice illustration of the various interdependent relationships.

Very interesting !!!

Your Experiences with Unchanging Castings-Hexagram 30

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