Yuan2 is usually translated as "sublime" (Wilhelm/Baynes) or something similar. Noticing how that doesn't really seems to fit with what I see as the meanings of the lines it's in, and that a similar meaning isn't in the dictionaries I most regularly consult, I've started to seriously doubt this way of translating it.

I compiled this list of possible translations for Yuan2:
first, primary, beginning, origin, original, source, head, chief, eldest, first year of an era, first day of the year

While being very broad with interpreting this, perhaps one could occasionally translate Yuan2 as "sublime", but to me that seems like an exception.

Yuan2 is in these 27 hexagram lines:
1.0 2.0 2.5 3.0 6.5 8.0 10.6 11.5 14.0 17.0 18.0 19.0 24.1 25.0 26.4 30.2 38.4 41.0 41.5 42.1 42.5 45.5 46.0 48.6 49.0 50.0 59.4

I wonder how in 3.0 it could give such an optimistic meaning to the text, while this is about difficulty.
In 8.0, why would one need "sublime and perpetual persistence?"
18.0 (Decay or Curse) is about something going the wrong way, and there's "Supreme fulfillment?"
1.0 seems so very positive, but as I heard several comment, there's in actual consultations often a sense of potential that cannot immediately be realized.
In 45.5 it seems like some superhuman effort is needed.

So, I don't think "sublime" is a correct translation for Yuan2. But what does it mean?

It seems to have something to do with the origin of things in a couple of lines that I looked at:
In 1.0 there's potential, which is something of an origin.
In 3.0 we're at the start, a difficult start, of something, so again an origin.
2.0 talks about being confused (or lost) "at first"
11.5, about the emperor giving someone in marriage, there's again something starting: a marriage
18.0, there's a starting date (Jia3)

"First day" as a translation does seem to work in a couple of lines:
45.5 "It is without fault if one is not being trusted the first day."
8.0 "Consult the oracle the first day."


Comments?


Ewald

Sublime to me means original, before corruption or intention. Ultimately trustworthy.

Bruce - I can appreciate someone for themselves taking the word "sublime" to have that meaning, however I'm not finding that meaning in the English dictionaries I have at my disposal.

For instance Dictionary.com has for "sublime":
<blockquote>1. Characterized by nobility; majestic.
2. <blockquote>a. Of high spiritual, moral, or intellectual worth.
b. Not to be excelled; supreme.</blockquote>
3. Inspiring awe; impressive.
4. Archaic. Raised aloft; set high.
5. Obsolete. Of lofty appearance or bearing; haughty: ?not terrible,/That I should fear... /But solemn and sublime? (John Milton).</blockquote>


Ewald

http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/origins/index.html

It is the fourth entry from the top, "yuan - heng - li - zhen".

LiSe

Thanks, LiSe, it's interesting to know that Yuan2 is a spring sacrifice (and Heng1 a summer sacrifice).

Ewald

In the closest Chinese-English text version, the word is represented by "initially"

Meaning something in the process of change, but starting in one form and transforming into another.

Simple_complexities - I'm currently translating yuan2 yi2 as "A source of good fortune." Seems to me "source of" is similar to "starting in one form and transforming into another."

Ewald

I happen to be a native german speaker, and the german word "erhaben" in the Richard Wilhelm translation made it into the english version, done by Mr. Baynes as "sublime".

To the best of my hopelessly flawed knowledge of the english language, when I read the possibilities which are listed from dictionary.com above I would go with the archaic meaning listed under 4.) first, then would come majestic and of high worth.

We should not forget that Richard Wilhelm was a follower of Goetheanism, which was a cultural movement in Wilhelmian Germany at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century.

So many of his thoughts were deeply guided by the thoughts and the style of the perhaps greatest german poet of all times, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.

The language Wilhelm uses is very much "Goetheanic", and was therefore (Goethe lived more than a century before Wilhelm came to understand the Yi), even in the original german version and even at the time of its going into print quite old-fashioned in style and tone. Even more so today.

The german word "erhaben" has, as far as I understand it an etymology of "sich erheben" / "to ascend", but also has a certain tone of (quiet, natural)dignity and peacefullness of mind in it. When I speak in German of, say, a person as an "erhaben" person, then the meaning would be like this. Someone who is peaceful in his mind on a high and dignity-giving place.

To live "erhaben", would mean to live an erxtrordinarily significant life, to live live from a lofty and peaceful level of mind, while being on a place highly valued by his common people (like, say, the Dalai Lama).

Just my 2 Eurocents, and I hope, I did not add too much to the confusion, but were able to shed a light how "sublime" made it into the english standard translation, and how it is used in todays and yesterdays german.

Namaste,

Soshin

...or, to add something to LiSe's grandiose explanations on her website:

Also the sun can rise "erhaben" or "yuan" on a spring's morning. Full of dignity, but without conciousness of its own dignity at all.

Real, natural dignity on the rise.

Sosh

Soshin - That's very interesting to hear that Wilhelm's language is so much influenced by Goethe. That probably also explains why he so consistently translates to "great" as in "greatness," e.g. "The Power of the Great."

My native language (Dutch) is quite close to German, and we have a direct translation for "erhaben", namely "verheven", which is a different word than "sublime" (in Dutch "subliem").


Ewald

Soshin, I like your ideas and appreciate your German translation.

However, according to Wilhelm and other stoic thinkers, sublime is like the word good. What is good? To one person, good means having moral ethics. To another, good means to do benevolent deeds for others. To another, good means to accomplish something great. To another, good means polite.

That's why I believe the word "original" comes closest to the intended meaning. ?Original? isn't someone's subjective judgment. It is the genuine quality of character before being tainted by conditioning or superficialities. Sublime is the unadorned truth of someone or something. Their original pure nature or character.

'Original' is good; so is 'source'. It's also wide open to interpretation in a good way, capable of talking to anyone's beliefs. The source, where the inspiration comes from. You decide where that might be.

Btw, that is also why I see hex. 4 as being the most sublime.

That is just your own sublime nature, Hilary, to make Yi available to anyone's beliefs.

MAY SONG.

How fair doth Nature

Appear again!
How bright the sunbeams!

How smiles the plain!

The flow'rs are bursting

From ev'ry bough,
And thousand voices

Each bush yields now.

And joy and gladness

Fill ev'ry breast!
Oh earth!--oh sunlight!

Oh rapture blest!

Oh love! oh loved one!

As golden bright,
As clouds of morning

On yonder height!

Thou blessest gladly

The smiling field,--
The world in fragrant

Vapour conceal'd.

Oh maiden, maiden,

How love I thee!
Thine eye, how gleams it!

How lov'st thou me!

The blithe lark loveth

Sweet song and air,
The morning flow'ret

Heav'n's incense fair,

As I now love thee

With fond desire,
For thou dost give me

Youth, joy, and fire,

For new-born dances

And minstrelsy.
Be ever happy,

As thou lov'st me!



ON THE LAKE,

[Written on the occasion of Goethe's starting with his friend
Passavant on a Swiss Tour.]

I DRINK fresh nourishment, new blood

From out this world more free;
The Nature is so kind and good

That to her breast clasps me!
The billows toss our bark on high,

And with our oars keep time,
While cloudy mountains tow'rd the sky

Before our progress climb.

Say, mine eye, why sink'st thou down?
Golden visions, are ye flown?

Hence, thou dream, tho' golden-twin'd;

Here, too, love and life I find.

Over the waters are blinking

Many a thousand fair star;
Gentle mists are drinking

Round the horizon afar.
Round the shady creek lightly

Morning zephyrs awake,
And the ripen'd fruit brightly

Mirrors itself in the lake.




THE SPIRIT'S SALUTE.

THE hero's noble shade stands high

On yonder turret grey;
And as the ship is sailing by,

He speeds it on his way.

"See with what strength these sinews thrill'd!

This heart, how firm and wild!
These bones, what knightly marrow fill'd!

This cup, how bright it smil'd!

"Half of my life I strove and fought,

And half I calmly pass'd;
And thou, oh ship with beings fraught,

Sail safely to the last!"







THE WANDERER'S NIGHT-SONG.

THOU who comest from on high,

Who all woes and sorrows stillest,
Who, for twofold misery,

Hearts with twofold balsam fillest,
Would this constant strife would cease!

What are pain and rapture now?
Blissful Peace, oh,
Blissful Peace

To my bosom hasten thou!




---ANOTHER ONE ---


HUSH'D on the hill

Is the breeze;

Scarce by the zephyr

The trees

Softly are press'd;
The woodbird's asleep on the bough.
Wait - also thou

Soon wilt find rest.








TO THE MOON.

BUSH and vale thou fill'st again

With thy misty ray,
And my spirit's heavy chain

Castest far away.

Thou dost o'er my fields extend

Thy sweet soothing eye,
Watching like a gentle friend,

O'er my destiny.

Vanish'd days of bliss and woe

Haunt me with their tone,
Joy and grief in turns I know,

As I stray alone.

Stream beloved, flow on! flow on!

Ne'er can I be gay!
Thus have sport and kisses gone,

Truth thus pass'd away.

Once I seem'd the lord to be

Of that prize so fair!
Now, to our deep sorrow, we

Can forget it ne'er.

Murmur, stream, the vale along,

Never cease thy sighs;
Murmur, whisper to my song

Answering melodies!

When thou in the winter's night

Overflow'st in wrath,
Or in spring-time sparklest bright,

As the buds shoot forth.

He who from the world retires,

Void of hate, is blest;
Who a friend's true love inspires,

Leaning on his breast!

That which heedless man ne'er knew,

Or ne'er thought aright,
Roams the bosom's labyrinth through,

Boldly into night.



CONSTANCY IN CHANGE.

COULD this early bliss but rest

Constant for one single hour!
But e'en now the humid West

Scatters many a vernal shower.
Should the verdure give me joy?

'Tis to it I owe the shade;
Soon will storms its bloom destroy,

Soon will Autumn bid it fade.

Eagerly thy portion seize,

If thou wouldst possess the fruit!
Fast begin to ripen these,

And the rest already shoot.
With each heavy storm of rain

Change comes o'er thy valley fair;
Once, alas! but not again

Can the same stream hold thee e'er.

And thyself, what erst at least

Firm as rocks appear'd to rise,
Walls and palaces thou seest

But with ever-changing eyes.
Fled for ever now the lip

That with kisses used to glow,
And the foot, that used to skip

O'er the mountain, like the roe.

And the hand, so true and warm,

Ever raised in charity,
And the cunning-fashion'd form,--

All are now changed utterly.
And what used to bear thy name,

When upon yon spot it stood,
Like a rolling billow came,

Hast'ning on to join the flood.

Be then the beginning found

With the end in unison,
Swifter than the forms around

Are themselves now fleeting on!
Thank the merit in thy breast,

Thank the mould within thy heart,
That the Muses' favour blest
Ne'er will perish, ne'er depart.

1803.*



MAHOMET'S SONG.

[This song was intended to be introduced in a dramatic poem
entitled Mahomet, the plan of which was not carried out by
Goethe. He mentions that it was to have been sung by Ali towards
the end of the piece, in honor of his master, Mahomet, shortly
before his death, and when at the height of his glory, of which
it is typical.]

SEE the rock-born stream!
Like the gleam
Of a star so bright
Kindly spirits
High above the clouds
Nourished him while youthful
In the copse between the cliffs.

Young and fresh.
From the clouds he danceth
Down upon the marble rocks;
Then tow'rd heaven
Leaps exulting.

Through the mountain-passes
Chaseth he the colour'd pebbles,
And, advancing like a chief,
Tears his brother streamlets with him
In his course.

In the valley down below
'Neath his footsteps spring the flowers,
And the meadow
In his breath finds life.

Yet no shady vale can stay him,
Nor can flowers,
Round his knees all-softly twining
With their loving eyes detain him;
To the plain his course he taketh,
Serpent-winding,

Social streamlets
Join his waters. And now moves he
O'er the plain in silv'ry glory,
And the plain in him exults,
And the rivers from the plain,
And the streamlets from the mountain,
Shout with joy, exclaiming: "Brother,
Brother, take thy brethren with thee,
With thee to thine aged father,
To the everlasting ocean,
Who, with arms outstretching far,
Waiteth for us;
Ah, in vain those arms lie open
To embrace his yearning children;
For the thirsty sand consumes us
In the desert waste; the sunbeams
Drink our life-blood; hills around us
Into lakes would dam us! Brother,
Take thy brethren of the plain,
Take thy brethren of the mountain
With thee, to thy father's arms!

Let all come, then!--
And now swells he
Lordlier still; yea, e'en a people
Bears his regal flood on high!
And in triumph onward rolling,
Names to countries gives he,--cities
Spring to light beneath his foot.

Ever, ever, on he rushes,
Leaves the towers' flame-tipp'd summits,
Marble palaces, the offspring
Of his fullness, far behind.

Cedar-houses bears the Atlas
On his giant shoulders; flutt'ring
In the breeze far, far above him
Thousand flags are gaily floating,
Bearing witness to his might.

And so beareth he his brethren,
All his treasures, all his children,
Wildly shouting, to the bosom
Of his long-expectant sire.

1774.
-----
SPIRIT SONG OVER THE WATERS.

THE soul of man
Resembleth water:
From heaven it cometh,
To heaven it soareth.
And then again
To earth descendeth,
Changing ever.

Down from the lofty
Rocky wall
Streams the bright flood,
Then spreadeth gently
In cloudy billows
O'er the smooth rock,
And welcomed kindly,
Veiling, on roams it,
Soft murmuring,
Tow'rd the abyss.

Cliffs projecting
Oppose its progress,--
Angrily foams it
Down to the bottom,
Step by step.

Now, in flat channel,
Through the meadowland steals it,
And in the polish'd lake
Each constellation
Joyously peepeth.

Wind is the loving
Wooer of waters;
Wind blends together
Billows all-foaming.

Spirit of man,
Thou art like unto water!
Fortune of man,
Thou art like unto wind!



MY GODDESS.

SAY, which Immortal
Merits the highest reward?
With none contend I,
But I will give it
To the aye-changing,
Ever-moving
Wondrous daughter of Jove.
His best-beloved offspring.
Sweet Phantasy.

For unto her
Hath he granted
All the fancies which erst
To none allow'd he
Saving himself;
Now he takes his pleasure
In the mad one.

She may, crowned with roses,
With staff twined round with lilies,
Roam thro' flow'ry valleys,
Rule the butterfly-people,
And soft-nourishing dew
With bee-like lips
Drink from the blossom:

Or else she may
With fluttering hair
And gloomy looks
Sigh in the wind
Round rocky cliffs,
And thousand-hued.
Like morn and even.
Ever changing,
Like moonbeam's light,
To mortals appear.

Let us all, then,
Adore the Father!
The old, the mighty,
Who such a beauteous
Ne'er-fading spouse
Deigns to accord
To perishing mortals!

To us alone
Doth he unite her,
With heavenly bonds,
While he commands her,
in joy and sorrow,
As a true spouse
Never to fly us.

All the remaining
Races so poor
Of life-teeming earth.
In children so rich.
Wander and feed
In vacant enjoyment,
And 'mid the dark sorrows
Of evanescent
Restricted life,--
Bow'd by the heavy
Yoke of Necessity.

But unto us he
Hath his most versatile,
Most cherished daughter
Granted,--what joy!

Lovingly greet her
As a beloved one!
Give her the woman's
Place in our home!

And oh, may the aged
Stepmother Wisdom
Her gentle spirit
Ne'er seek to harm!

Yet know I her sister,
The older, sedater,
Mine own silent friend;
Oh, may she never,
Till life's lamp is quench'd,
Turn away from me,--
That noble inciter,
Comforter,--Hope!

I just did it.


Just to give a glimpse from whom
Wilhelm was inspired.

Forgive me, Hilary, for using your space.

I hope, for the good.

Soshin

You know I can never get too much Goethe. Though I do wonder how all those pesky zephyrs got in. ( And 'social streamlets' and 'minstrelsy'?? UGH!) Not that I could translate it half as well, of course. But it does make you wonder how much we might be missing by only knowing Yi through translations.

Thanks for the Goethe.

I agree that sublime is a lousy translation for Yuan, at least as it's usually understood.
It probably came from L. sub - limen, below the threshold and therefore "seldom perceived" or special. But that may be too wimpy.
Personally, I take Yuan as the superlative, the ultimate of something, especially of ancestry (original) but also of quality (-est). The authors of the Wings err, I think, in glossing it as the comparative Da, great or greater. It's better than that, the best or finest or purest or most original of things.

Hi, Hilary,

heehee, the pesky zephyrs also got my attention... The both other words - I am not even dreaming of being able to understand what the heck their meaning is. Fact is, I did not find another translation of the poems in the limited time I had until I had to go to bed yesterday. And the translation in question seems to me to be a contemporary one to Goethe.

Especially in "Another (wanderers night-song)" the zephyr could be easily changed to wind or breeze.

I was (mis?)guided by my anticipation that Goethe (and Wilhelm) would be all kind of thinkers, but not "stoic" ones. And what comes out quite well, is why Wilhelm as a "Goetheaninan" was so easy to be convincend to the chinese/daoist view of Change (See "Constancy in Change" or other, untranslated poems.)

Of course all of this cannot compensate for the study of the Yi add adds very little to its understanding.

Btw. "Grand, illustrious, lofty" are given in a dictionary for "erhaben".

Namaste,

Soshin

I?ve been wondering throughout this thread what it is that makes up a Chinese character, or any expression of language. I realize the nature of ideograms. That?s not what I?m referring to.

There?s this expression of something called Yuan2. Now we, of another time and culture(s), try to understand the meaning of the word, as though the meaning is contained within the word itself.

I understand the value of articulate translation, but I do wonder if in seeking the trees we miss the forest.

If a metaphor needs words to understand it, then why the metaphor in the first place? Words are tracks that lead to the cave, but they don?t identify the cave, or what?s in it.

hmm, I'm wrong. Tracks do identify what's in the cave. Back to the drawing board for me...

Which is more sublime, the words or the metaphor?

Are they or were they one and the same?

How does modern western man literally translate something from an ancient eastern mind when the psyche of each is opposed in their perception of the world and their place in it?

As corny as it sounds, I?m thinking that ?being the metaphor? makes understanding the metaphor possible. Harder for a western mind than eastern, I think, because western retains, so strongly, the identity of self as being something other.

Thank you, Bruce!

"Being the metaphor" perhaps could be itself a metaphor for "fixing the omen" or "heng"?

In other words, a metaphor can only be understood (more) fully by "living" or "experiencing" it?

Did I get your point?

Namaste,

Soshin

Hi Soshin,

I think it's something we all do on a subconscious level. Like sitting by a waterfall and getting lost in it, losing our sense of self, or rather merging self with the waterfall. Then we understand the waterfall as an experience, rather than standing and pointing to it, analyzing it with words.

Then after, when we leave, we take the waterfall with us in us. Someone asks us, what is a waterfall? We?re left with words to try and explain it. Or, we could say, go and sit quietly for an hour at the waterfall and you will understand. Or perhaps they will recognize the waterfall in you? If you still have it.

You know, metaphor (simile, whatever) is the way we might use words to let another person find themselves at the waterfall. It creates a gap that logic cannot fill, and invites you into the space.

Maybe someone asked Goethe what it was like to be in love?

'So liebt die Lerche
Gesang und Luft,
Und Morgenblumen
Den Himmelsduft,
Wie ich dich liebe...'

'The lark loves song and air, morning flowers love the scent of the sky, as I love you...'

hmm, lovely words. Too bad he had to ruin it with "as I love you". His self couldn't resist standing apart from the lark, song and air, morning flowers loving the scent of the sky.

This seems to be a fundamental difference, as I said earlier, between eastern and western thought. And I think it?s at least part of why the Yi remains something of a mystery to us. We (westerners) have this nagging need to be something other, something separate, something individual. Joseph Campbell pointed this out during his Mythos lecture. A shoemaker in the east IS a shoemaker, not a simile or metaphor of a shoemaker. It?s more than his job or what he does. It?s what he is.

I?m not suggesting one way is good and the other bad, or one is right and the other wrong. But if we?re trying to get our head around Yuan2, then at least half of that cognitive process must include an experiential association, in addition to creating similes that explain its meaning to us.

IE:

24 FU: Return
Return to no self.

29 KAN
True self.

59 HUAN: Dissolution
Dissolve self.

Or the opposite:

7 SHIH: Army
Defend self.

34 TA CHUANG Man of stone
Fight for self.

44 KOU: Rising to meet
Increase self.

How to understand Yuan2? Half of it, at least, means to be Yuan2. If we?re hung on a literal translation of the word to understand it, how can we experience it? Pick the closest word, to you, and try it out for awhile, in you. Ewald says there?s 27 references to use! You are Yuan2. I believe you will find Yuan2 in you, not in a simile that describes it or you. If associative words help you to find where it lives in you, great! Two eyes seeing.

Ok, I took up enough bandwidth for now.