Cut my son off Hex 40

goddessliss · Jun 26, 2014

About 2 years ago I rung my religious son who can be quite disrespectful, abusive and manipulative - all the reasons I left his father over 25 years ago - and told him that I no longer wish to have a relationship with him if he keeps up with all the things I've mentioned.
At the time I was extremely angry, which is very unusual for me, and he said 'mum I've never heard you be like this you are always so lovely and kind so either one of two things is going on here you're either still upset about D (personal matter) or you have mental health issues. Lucky for me I could laugh when he said that but he was serious and accepted no responsibility for his own behaviour.
In a roundabout way I let it go as I'd said my piece but there's been no change really and yesterday he again did something that has now made me cut off contact with him. I sent him an email and said 'I told you a couple of years ago if....etc. that I would no longer wish for a relationship with you , please don't attempt to contact me again'.

What will be the repercussions of cutting S off

Hex 40 unchanging

Interestingly he lives in the southwest

Release of the present structure and release of tension - not actually sure what that means.

What exactly will be released here

Hex 38.4>41

A decrease in opposition, well I guess that's true - I'm so sick of not being able to have a conversation without his obvious disapproval, judgement and religious bent.

thanks Liss

ginnie · Jun 27, 2014

Hex 40 unchanging -- you will free yourself internally from his negative influence . . .

goddessliss · Jun 27, 2014

Hallelujah for that! thanks Ginnie

sooo · Jun 27, 2014

So sad, but he must have not paid attention to his religious teacher who told him the commandment, honor thy mother. Self righteous and ungrateful pricks. I can say that, as I've been through the same wringer with a religious zealot son. It's just not worth torturing yourself over, Liss. Great and most appropriate reading. Let go. Maybe some day he'll wake up, and then maybe not. Either way, you've fulfilled your part by raising him as best you could, there's no reason a parent should have to take abuse from him as an adult.

hugs to ya

goddessliss · Jun 27, 2014

Thanks sooo, sorry you had to deal with your lot in this sort of thing too. Great thing about it is I don't care particularly except not being able to spend time with the grandchildren. For the last couple of years when I talk about my kids I've never felt he was part of us anymore and my youngest son, whom I'm now staying with feels the same and says his brother lives in denial.
Not only did he not pay attention to his teacher he obviously didn't pay close enough attention to what I said a couple of years back, hey.

beatpoet · Jun 27, 2014

What will be the repercussions of cutting S off

Hex 40 unchanging

Repercussions will be that you will feel relieved temporarily of built up tension. But after some time you will want to return to normal (hex 40)

Wilhelm hex 40:

Also a time of deliverance from burdensome pressure has a liberating and stimulating effect on life. One thing is important, however: in such times we must not overdo our triumph. The point is not to push on farther than is necessary. Returning to the regular order of life as soon as deliverance is achieved brings good fortune. If there are any residual matters that ought to be attended to, it should be done as quickly as possible, so that a clean sweep is made and no retardations occur.

What exactly will be released here

Hex 38.4>41

The release (41) is the loss of belief (41) that opposing differences (38) are worth losing your kin for (line 4).

beatpoet

beatpoet · Jun 27, 2014

What exactly will be released here

Hex 38.4>41

The release (41) is the loss of belief (41) that opposing differences (38) are worth losing your kin for (line 4).

beatpoet

Would like to revise...

(41) may also refer to the release of your son. And Yi's reply is that opposing differences (38) are not worth losing your kin for (line 4).

goddessliss · Jun 27, 2014

Thanks beatpoet - I can't imagine it's going to bother me too much at all. He left home over 12 years ago and I've never missed him. I will miss my oldest grandchild perhaps, but he's a baby and when he's old enough he can make up his own mind whether he would like to have a relationship with me.
Sitting with this for the last 24 hours, I feel it has freed up a lot of other stuff that was bothering me within myself and feel like there is such a clear 'energy field' around me now that as line 4 suggests, others more compatible with me will come. Liss

Trojina · Jun 27, 2014

Lisa...what were you going to say ?

Hard for me to imagine that one can release oneself from a son ? I mean he will always be your son....he cannot just be just a 'negative influence' as Ginnie put it. What I'm trying to say is I cannot imagine one can ever just simply be released from a son by categorising him as a 'negative influence'.....not possible is it

I think it more likely you will let go of the idea of cut off. I'm not a mother but it doesn't seem realistic to me at all.

I mean let him know of your feelings. Avoid him as much as you wish and so on....but I'd urge you not to cut him off. You are still his mother, he doesn't have another, and I feel you would regret it deeply one day. I think it is very important how you handle this.

goddessliss · Jun 28, 2014

Thanks trojina - it's actually been an ongoing difficult relationship for close to 15 years. He carries with him the history of the way my family treated me and also his father and has tried to tell me I am a loser just as my family used to tell me - of course over time, as I've grown in myself he has seen the truth but refuses to let go of what he's been led to believe all these years, even getting his wife to believe the same. He tried to convince my other to boys as well but they didn't buy into it.
I doubt if I will regret it. I cut my parents off for the same reasons close to 10 years ago or more and I have absolutely no regrets. They and him are welcome to talk with me and take their accountability in our difficult relationship as I have done within myself but until then I'm am happy without them. To be honest I rarely think about my parents. You remember the story I told on here about how they left me on the side of the road when I was just 2 years old....I think that says it all. I don't hold onto that story but I did choose to take the road away from them in the end. - Liss

Liselle · Jun 28, 2014

Trojina said:
Lisa...what were you going to say ?

Argh. Apparently something left breadcrumbs. Have written, thought better of, and deleted at least two comments on this thread today, LOL.

I keep getting stuck on the 40uc reading, which - there are too many ways to interpret an unchanging hexagram, some of which can be mutually exclusive, grumble grumble.

One way to look at it is just that it's repeating what Liss asked about and stating a fact she already knows - she cut off her son, therefore she "released" him. "Cut off" = "release" = 40uc, plain and simple.

You (Trojina) might say that it's tossing the question back to Liss and asking her what she wants out of releasing her son, or something like that.

I was also wondering if it might mean Yi has nothing at all to say (lol). In other words, maybe there will be no repercussions, life will just plod on for each of them, and there is no insight to provide. I once had a similar reading, where I asked Yi to tell me something I didn't know (those words were literally in the question) about how someone was doing in "aspect X" of their life (I wasn't in touch with them, and couldn't be, long story). Yi parroted a line which essentially just means "aspect X." I was miffed! Then it occurred to me that maybe that was Yi's way of saying they were doing perfectly normally in aspect X, exactly as I would expect from what I did already know, and there was nothing significant to report.

Similarly but maybe slightly differently, 40uc could mean "relief," which is what it sounds like Liss is actually feeling right now. She's saying she's never missed him in 12 years, so... (How Liss tied together 40uc and 38.4>41 there seems to make logical sense, too.)

But then, the Image has the notion of forgiveness and clearing of the air, etc. Which itself could go a couple ways - clearing the air as a step to reconciliation, or airing things out as a way to part deliberately rather than angrily (in other words, agreeing to disagree, or mutually deciding that never the twain shall meet and they're better off apart).

ETA - saw Liss's most recent comment before clicking Submit. Shall we throw the Image in the trash in this case?

goddessliss · Jun 28, 2014

Hi Lisa, Well I didn't really expect there to be repercussions to be honest - I was just curious in case I'd missed something so to speak. Reconciliation is always available but the way I see things these days is for it to work in harmony all parties need to take on their accountability for the relationship.
My parents haven't bothered reaching out and according to this same son who still sees them, my mum in particularly is a bitter old woman which in essence says it all.
When my marriage split up and my husband chose to take up with another woman and not do what was needed to be done to keep our marriage and family together, I did the same thing, I cut him off. I have no regrets. Recently and very briefly I came face to face with him unexpectedly and I hadn't seen him or spoken to him in over 5 years - I felt fine about it as I have no guilt and worked through my own accountability for the breakdown and would be happy to have some sort of relationship with him in terms of our kids but he is not able to do that because he knows what he did and still lives with his guilt - that's sad for him.
I'm not trying to bit Miss High and Mighty smarty pants here is just that I've found when you cut people off for very good reason they cannot take it out on you and are left with their own thoughts. How they deal with that is not my business. - Liss

Trojina · Jun 28, 2014

I see..yes I do think 40 here might be a sort of non answer and the other ways you describe but I guess it's the sort of issue where I think Liss has to decide how to take the 40. It's too big an issue I think for us to advise on the basis of Yi cast...too much we don't know. It seems too big an issue even for Liss to go by Yi's answer to me. I mean at least to me it seems a big deal

Liss yes I remember how your parents left you....which in an odd way made me want you to 'keep' your son more. However you know the situation best.

goddessliss · Jun 28, 2014

Yes it does seem to be history repeating itself doesn't it - very sad. - Liss

Trojina · Jun 28, 2014

goddessliss said:
Hi Lisa, Well I didn't really expect there to be repercussions to be honest - I was just curious in case I'd missed something so to speak. Reconciliation is always available but the way I see things these days is for it to work in harmony all parties need to take on their accountability for the relationship.
My parents haven't bothered reaching out and according to this same son who still sees them, my mum in particularly is a bitter old woman which in essence says it all.
When my marriage split up and my husband chose to take up with another woman and not do what was needed to be done to keep our marriage and family together, I did the same thing, I cut him off. I have no regrets. Recently and very briefly I came face to face with him unexpectedly and I hadn't seen him or spoken to him in over 5 years - I felt fine about it as I have no guilt and worked through my own accountability for the breakdown and would be happy to have some sort of relationship with him in terms of our kids but he is not able to do that because he knows what he did and still lives with his guilt - that's sad for him.
I'm not trying to bit Miss High and Mighty smarty pants here is just that I've found when you cut people off for very good reason they cannot take it out on you and are left with their own thoughts. How they deal with that is not my business. - Liss

I don't want to contradict, I respect that you know best here, it's just I see a relationship to a son as just not the same thing as your relationship to your parents or husband. It's different isn't it ? Guess I think it's the child's perogative to cut off crap parents, and what husbands and wives do to each other is yet another thing again...but I'm really not sure a mother can actually cut off her son, not really

won't she be wondering how he is ? Won't she, despite everything, still be thinking of him ? I mean your parents were crap but you were a better parent and none of your kids have cut you out. (yes I know your mother cut you out....but you aren't like her)

Also this particular 'kid' thinks you are a 'loser' but you know that's bull **** so another way of doing 40 could be to let that false judgement of his go as you are above that ? To say you are cutting him off you must be very angry and thinking of 40 in the light of that...? Hmmm I don't why but I feel somehow if your relationship with him is cut off your parents have 'won' in some way....whereas if you stay with this you win.

Clearly I am too biased to give an opinion on the reading. Can't you just say something like 'when you speak to me with respect then I will talk to you ?' I'm taking it that you are saying you are totally cutting him from your life altogether ? Oh well what do I know....it does seem sad but if you're sure it's what you gotta do I guess you know best.

goddessliss · Jun 28, 2014

Oh I see we're you're coming from now - well we did have the conversation a couple of years ago and I said what I had to say then and all he could come up with was that I must have mental health issues if I believe all that i was saying to him and then he hung up on me - we talked again but unfortunately it was really the same outcome. If I do try to talk with him he cuts me off and starts being abusive. I don't know if I put it on here but when I was staying with them at the beginning of this year I nearly got assaulted when I was out one day. When I told him about it he said don't be ridiculous mum that's not what happened and you know it - words to that effect anyway. It's not like he can't contact me if he wants to but he knows if he wants to he has to start treating me with respect and then some. It doesn't matter whether I'm his mother or not first and foremost I'm a human being. - Liss

Trojina · Jun 28, 2014

Yes you shouldn't have to tolerate abuse from him....Anyway you mean if he behaves better he can contact you ? Yes that's reasonable. I thought you meant he could never ever contact you again....and then I thought that was too irreversible, but you didn't mean that....

I do remember the time you were bothered by someone in a car and he dismissed it yes.

Liselle · Jun 28, 2014

Trojina said:
It's too big an issue I think for us to advise on the basis of Yi cast...too much we don't know. It seems too big an issue even for Liss to go by Yi's answer to me. I mean at least to me it seems a big deal

Yes, agreed. This is very - sadly - complicated. Maybe that's another possibility for 40uc - "Well, things are cut off with him... ... ... ..." and then it just sort of hangs there.

I had noooo idea what to make of 38.4>41 in this context, and still don't.

I just hope everything works out for the best, whatever that is. If you wanted to (at some point), there are probably other questions you could ask Yi, maybe the tried-and-true "What should my attitude properly be towards my relationship with my son?" Or something like that.

goddessliss · Jun 28, 2014

Thank you to all that have responded here particularly trojina and Lisa for taking such an interest - your responses do make me think and sort things in my mind. I've no need to ask further question yet, I'm comfortable with the decision I've made so until that changes I will use my energies elsewhere. - Liss

beatpoet · Jun 29, 2014

Dear Liss,

I have been thinking about your situation on and off since I read about your post. It seems so difficult and heartbreaking to me. I kept wondering about 40 uc. It just seemed like there's more to it. Then iy struck me that some call hex 40 "Deliverance." That word is used so much in spiritual contexts. Your question was about repercussions..perhaps Yi was saying that the repercussions would be that you will be delivered from the painful interactions with your son? I just finished watching this movie with Meryl Streep and Julia Roberts called, "August: Osage County." Meryl plays an abusive mother and in the end all three of her daughters leave her because of her behavior. It really illustrates how abusive behavior becomes a cycle and how you can love someone but not their behavior and the difficulty you are faced with when you are forced to choose your own wellbeing over all.

Though we don't know each other, I really wish you well.

goddessliss · Jun 29, 2014

Thanks Beatpoet - His dad was very abusive, and when it started getting physical I left, my parents said don't be silly we can't see any bruises go back but I knew what was going on and I didn't go back. Even after 20 odd years after the divorce he was till name calling and bitchin' about me to my son, even though he'd remarried and had two more children. My son went to live with him when he was 16 (his own choice) and he copped a lot of abuse too but being a Christian he just went into denial when it happened and to this day still believes it didn't, but when he couldn't take it anymore he would tell me all about it, but clearly he 'forgets' those conversations. My son's wife confirms it still goes on (she brought up the subject not me) and I've seen my son be both abusive to his wife and his own child. I told his wife to watch out for it when I first met her but she just ignored it. Who knows what will happen in the future but as you say I'm looking after my own well being and that's the right choice for me. - Liss

Trojina · Jun 29, 2014

Just for clarity....so he is the son of your first husband not the son of the husband who you split from more recently ? I'm a bit confused because I thought you only split up from your husband about 5 years ago and that your son went to live with him and then came back and told you how his dad and the new woman screamed at each other....but that's a different son right ?

goddessliss · Jun 29, 2014

Yes trojina he's my oldest son 28 y.o., he's from my first marriage . - a man I split up with in late 1989.
And yes my youngest son now 19 y.o. experienced a DV situation with his father (my 2nd husband) a couple of years ago. - Liss

beatpoet · Jun 29, 2014

Liss,

Going back to 40uc...this is Wilhelm's description:

A thunderstorm has the effect of clearing the air; the superior man produces a similar effect when dealing with mistakes and sins of men that induce a condition of tension. Through clarity he brings deliverance. However, when failings come to light, he does not dwell on them; he simply passes over mistakes, the unintentional transgressions, just as thunder dies away. He forgives misdeeds, the intentional transgressions, just as water washes everything clean.

This was the basis for my first post.

He says also:

The Image
Thunder and rain set in: The image of Deliverance. Thus the superior man pardons mistakes and forgives misdeeds.

So there is an emphasis on forgiveness.

Question then is can one forgive, and also cut off??? Is that forgiveness?

Then, I was rereading 38.4>41

It is a description of someone who is in isolation because of being in the company with which one does not really fit, then meeting one who is "kin" or like-minded.

Your question was what needs to be released here

The company--i.e. your son?

The idea that you are very different after all, that after you strip the differences, you are the same in truth, like-minded kin?

Does this cast in fact just reflect your coming to this forum to discuss the difficulty with your son? Are we the like-minded ppl?

I was also thinking about your son's words...either you are still hung up about D or you need help (massive paraphrase sorry)...

Of all the words he said are those the ones that made you feel okay that's it, enough...did they trigger the largest response in you? If so, is there anything there which may be the 41 or is it possible the "company" are the ghosts of the past which need to be released?

I was thinking about this movie last night, and I know it us possible most would not have seen it, but what it made me question is even when we leave toxic situations by cutting people off, don't we really keep carrying it all around with us anyway like they were still with us?

"Deliverance" "Forgiveness" "Release" "Cutting Off" ... Wow these are just very heavy words.

Thing is we all work on patterns. There seems to me so many here...

I think 38.4 sort of begs introspection on who is "company" and who is "like-minded" -- maybe these are not people. You know how the past can even become so personified...

Lilly-La · Jun 29, 2014

Hi there,

i got Hex. 40 moths ago for a similar situation. Here is the story, may be it is of help to you?

My mum is living in a nursery home. Here in my country each nursery home has to have an advisory board consisting of 5 residents or relatives.

I have been member of this board for 3 years by now. Last year the other members changed. Some trouble started as 2 of the new members complained about all and everything. Additionally they were badly infomed about laws and regulations. To make a long story short, i did withdraw from the board silently as i noticed it was simply a waste of energy. First i had some feelings of guilt as i want the best for my mum und the board grants great power to achieve this. On the other hand it was just too exhausting to have all these useless meetings and talks. And my mum is in the best home i could find. I am more than pleased with the nurses work.
Befor withdrawing i did ask the Yi what to do and got Hex. 40.

Looking back, it was the complete correct decision and feelings of guilt were superfluous.
Today, i am still a member but not involved anymore. I can pick up my work if i want to but do not need to.

I believe we all have some 'weird' believes (should / should not) and superflous feelings of guilt.
You don´t have to 'live' together, you can always as well live besides /parallel to each other. If times change, okay, if not, okay too.

best to you, lilly

goddessliss · Jun 29, 2014

Hi Lilly, thanks for sharing your story - it always, always helps to know others have been through similar type experiences and what the outcome was especially via the Yi. - Liss

goddessliss · Jun 29, 2014

Hi Beatpoet, The like minded person/people may well be the people on this forum but I think it's more my youngest son with whom I'm staying with now. We 'get' each other particularly on a very deep level, we appear to go through similar experiences in our life at the same time despite our age difference. We are both agnostic and question the same things about life on that deep level.
The trigger for telling my oldest to get lost - after talking to him nearly 2 years ago he still hasn't proved to have changed at all in his attitude etc. towards me or his brothers. About 12 months ago, when he knew my middle son Jake was going through a major bout of anxiety and depression, he started an argument about something with him and tried to tell him Jesus was the answer and attacked Jake's belief system to the point that Jake fell down in a heap and just about had a nervous breakdown. I let it go as Jake asked me to as Jake is the peacemaker of the family.
Then the other day he did the same to my youngest son who ended up in tears, hung up on him and told me he nearly came home from work he was so distraught. For him to cry let alone come home from work - well that is an unusual reaction from him. This young man is well able to defend himself and he did but that was just it for me - it is not acceptable and you do not treat anyone like that especially the ones you love.
I've told noone (except you guys here) that I've cut my son off, not my other children, noone. As I said I'm comfortable with my decision, I hold no malice or anger towards my oldest son but I choose to not have him as part of my life. If my other children wish to continue to have a relationship with him that's got nothing to do with me - they're adults now and it's their choice - Liss

beatpoet · Jun 29, 2014

It is so helpful to have Lilly's experience here. I had read your post, Liss and was trying to see the "big picture" Yi so often leads us (me) to...i began to think that Yi was simply reflecting the situation.

Yi are there any consequences
Just a release of pent up energy. Then things return to normal.

Yi what is the release?
The one who doesn't share the same inner beliefs as you.

Seems to be reflection of the events.

My very inexperienced experience of the Yi is that Yi is simple.

So maybe 40 is when there is an event or experience in which tension is released and then maybe a change like in Lilly's case or yours. After a thunderstorm, trees have broken branches, soil shifts-- THINGS CAN MOVE. But the basic landscape is the same--"things go back to normal."

Still both examples given are about difficult experiences that are highly charged.

Liss, maybe this is not cutting off from your son, as much as getting silent so that something more sublime, something greater can take place. I agree with you that when silence is there, that is when most people start thinking in their own space. And when that happens, they can't pull from you, blame you, or use a fresh event to stay stuck in the same thoughts. If they care, they are forced to reflect on what happened, why things are happening the way they are. They have to find their way back or continue on the same course. Like Lilly says words sometimes are useless. This is the point that you seemed to have reached. I don't think you are cutting off...rather you are letting silence do the talking. Everyone would want to see a happy ending. Some say that if the ending isn't happy, it means it is not over yet.

beatpoet

goddessliss · Oct 18, 2014

A couple of weeks ago, unexpectedly resolution came. At first my (oldest) son kept going on about me having mental health issues and how do I know I don''t have them, I really need to see a psychiatrist.
Anyway we got through that bit and 'nutted' out the rest of the issues.
I said when it all comes down to it the only reason this relationship isn't working is because you will not accept me for who I am and continually judge me - if you can stop doing that everything would be fine.
I then spent a couple of days and nights with him, my daughter-in-law and my two grandchildren.
Their attitude appears to be completely changed towards me so I believe cutting him off for a period was the right thing to do in this instance. - Liss

Trojina · Oct 20, 2014

Just saw this via 'Friends Notes' Hilary sends out. Great news and thank you for updating.

Cut my son off Hex 40

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