I sure do like LiSe's names for the hexagrams, and my apologies if I've obscured the topic. So before I go on, my question is:

"How do I make a healthy place for internet discussion in my life?"

And the answer I got was #39 (Obstruction), unchanging.

Now, back to LiSe for a minute:

I've been trying to find a way to frame and ask this question for some time. Today, I was having a little trouble with an issue at work (tangentially involving the internet), and in answer to the question I had asked, I got #42 - Increase. When I looked at LiSe's #42 - The Bowl of the Raingod, I suddenly realized that her bowl imagery wonderfully fit my conception of what an internet discussion topic is like. She says:

"A great thought, which is not being put into practice, will never reach the Gods. But if you cook your food in your own little pot, the vapors will ascend to Heaven. And put out all your pots and pans, so you will catch every drop of rain. One little shower brings a lot of drops. Without a pot, even torrents of refreshing water will drain away unused. For every blessing, you have to bring along a pot."

What a wonderful image, I thought, and I found myself finally able to frame an internet-participation question that I felt would help me, and perhaps others. I framed and asked my internet question (with this image in mind, of setting out one's pot to catch the rain), and, received #39, unchanging.

So I guess, now I have a couple of questions.

First of, course, help with interpreting the answer.

Second, how to find a context for the fact that the way of framing the question, and the act of asking arose out of #42 (or at least out of a specific image associated with #42.) Would there be any benefit to looking to the change lines that would transform one to the other (1,3,6)? Or would that just divert my attention from the reality that #39 was unchanging?

I should say a little I guess about what has been on my mind leading up to this question. Internet discussions feel deeply meaningful to me - valuable contributions to the state of the world, to the lives of others, and to my own development. But internet participation, if not disciplined, tends to simply devour time, with a constant pull away from the local and flesh-and-blood. So, first, there is a very practical question of developing the disciplines and daily practices that will be healthy for this newly possible activity.

But there is another deeper part, that has to do with discovering the values to/of internet participation, both for myself, and in relation to others. Since this is a whole new problem for all of us, there's a certain aspect of justification involved. It's hard for anybody yet to say clearly why doing this matters. But the people of my local world (family, friends, work, etc.) do deserve an explanation for my use of my time. Just as one explains to one's family the benefits associated with going off to work each day, it seems some similar explanation is due for vanishing into the internet. I don't mean "justification" in the sense that I feel I need to find the reasons for what I do in the value systems held by others. But, as the very least step, I need to understand the reasons for the benefit of my own value system. And then, by extension, to be able to articulate some reasons that can be understood by those I'm in relationship with - some bridge to their value systems.

So, how do I make a healthy place for internet discussion in my life? Wending back to LiSe, she says of #39:

"If the whole world is cold, hostile and frustrating, then it is obvious you are obediently following the paths of the world. Leaving them is frightening; you will be alone, without protection, shelter or comfort. But if you do leave them, you will find protection, shelter and comfort within yourself, and after a while also around yourself. Make your own shelter and you will find shelter. Make place for friends and you will find friends. Life is not what life is; life is what you make it."

I guess what this is saying is that if I find it hard to make a healthy place for internet discussion in my life, that is just because I have not yet made my *own* healthy place yet. Just keep working at it. Hmmm...

Any other thoughts?

Willow

Hi Willow.

To paraphrase an answer to both questions, 42 and 39, would I be accurate by stating it thusly:

1) How may I increase myself and others by my participation in online discussion?

2) How do I assure my friends, loved ones AND myself that its ok?

The answer in 39 is: Turn your attention inward, you are being obstructed outwardly.

Wilhelm's translation of the Image is: Thus the superior man turns his attention to himself
and moulds his character.

Wilhelm must not have had a clue that's Yi's followers would be at least 50 female! So let's pardon his well meaning gender bias, and read it without it:

When obstructed outwardly, return inward with the purpose of shaping how you want to be. I use the word, "how" rather than "who," because I think our Tao is the who. If we're true to our Tao, the question now becomes, "how do I present myself?" What affect should I have on my environment, both, online and real time?

By taking this time of Obstruction to mold and shape how you will be, you will Increase both, the ones online and the ones real time. But, the task belongs to you. You live Tao as you live being yourself. Only you can shape yourself.

Something I've become used to doing, is looking at the worst case scenario in the best case reading and the best case scenario in the worst case reading. That place is usually at the top change line; when what is, is about to change into its opposite. In Increase, it says:

He brings increase to no one.
Indeed, someone even strikes him.
He doesn't keep his heart constantly steady.
Misfortune.

When increase has run its course, decrease naturally follows. The end of increase is, decrease. The end of Decrease is:

Nine at the top means:
If one is increased without depriving others,
There's no blame.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
It furthers one to undertake something.
One obtains servants
But no longer has a separate home.

hmmm One no longer has a separate home. Separate from what? Separate from your Tao, who you really are.

I see it like a little toy truck. The truck fills itself and then drives to the destination. Once there, the little truck empties the cargo, refills with new cargo, and drives it back to the other depot.

Yi could have given you 60, and it all would have made sense. Apparently though, the better council would be a bit more detailed.

~Candid

Hi Willow,

Wu Wei would like to help.

<CENTER>Hex. 42</CENTER>

<CENTER>That Which We Want Wants Us</CENTER>

That is the Universal law of atraction. Everything has consciousness, and like attracts like. To have anything we want, we need only raise our level of consciousness to the level of consciousness where what we want exists. It is like being in the elevator of a great department store where all we want exists on successively higher floors. When we have risen to the proper level, what we want is there, waiting for us. To raise our level of consciousness, we focus our attention on becoming aware of the universe, its consciousness and awareness, and our oneness with it. We then communciate with it, walk within its awareness, acknowleging it at all times. Natural law does the rest. After we have obtained what we want, it is wise to keep in mind that if we allow our level of consciousness to sink, the same law that brought us what we wanted will remove it from us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<CENTER>Hex. 39</CENTER>

<CENTER>The Inferior Person, Seeing No Advantage, Makes No Effort</CENTER>

A person who sees a way to help another but does not do so because he sees no advantage in it for himself, is, according to the ancient sages, an inferior person. His limited point of view defeats him. He does not know that he would be greatly rewarded by the Universe for helping another, particularly if there was no obvious benefit to himself for doing so. The person who desires to leave things better than he found them, who does more than his share, who is not attached to rewards, who is always seeking to benefit others, who knows he is cared for and rewarded by the Universe for his every effort, is able to act selflessly, without expectation of a reward, return, without thought of advantage, and of him it is said, "He is better than the best, " and, of course, he is greatly rewarded.

Hi Willow!

You said: "I guess what this is saying is that if I find it hard to make a healthy place for internet discussion in my life, that is just because I have not yet made my *own* healthy place yet."

In a way, I agree. Your situation reminds me of my own not too long ago when I was wondering if the time I spent talking over the Internet was of value or if I was getting sidetracked from other more immediate concerns and people. Since I am no longer involved with this question myself, I find it so much easier to see the obvious.

You say you enjoy this very much and you wish to be able to explain to others why, right? Why not then simply focus on what precisely DRAWS you to participate in Internet discussions in the first place? By defining precisely what attracts you to do this, you find the answer you are looking for. I have begun the process for you --just some ideas and certainly not the definitive word on the subject.

.....

Communicating over the Internet DOES require a lot more time than talking face-to-face or over the telephone, and yet there is a most definite need for this type of forethought in communication that is preferable over other ways of exchanging and sharing ideas --that is, to stop, think and reconsider what is being said.

We live in times that find most people easily distracted and inattentive --the average person is too busy thinking about what they are going to say next that they aren't listening to what's being said to them right now. So...if they're not listening to what's being said they're not likely to tailor their response appropriately.

Frankly, the way I see it, spending our time talking AT each other is somewhat equivalent to talking to oneself. If we're going to get caught up in these types of "inner-mind-circles" (reflecting on our own thoughts) we might as well do it with others who are similarly involved in carefully sorting out their ideas and beliefs in a [not perfect but] structured way....enter discussion boards. Granted, not all Internet communications are made equal... ....but we have the option to choose which forum best suits our needs and thought process.

SOME REASONS

1- Internet discussions require time to share and time to absorb. The care and forethought gained here find their way into other relationships in real-time. If more people participated in the same way, our immediate relationships would benefit exponentially.

2- Internet discussions provide a platform for our personal creativity to blossom in ways that other forms of communication don't make possible. We are therefore discovering things about ourselves that we didn't know and are thus developing new skills.

3- Internet discussions pretty much guarantee that SOMEONE is listening...even if it IS only one person and THEY happen to disagree with you. It's an opportunity to see what you're made of...are you going to go to the trouble of repeating yourself? try a different approach? or are you going to give up?

4- Internet discussions allow you to connect with others of similar mind who are more open to discussing subjects and issues that our immediate friends and family aren't always as concerned with. All aspects of ourselves need attention and regular sustanence.

5- Internet discussions, because of the distance between people and the often faceless nature of the whole medium, make them somewhat impersonal. A grand opportunity to confront the fact that the inner thought processess and dialogues that take place are all a means to getting to know ourself better because our choice is always one of two ways: to REACT (resulting from our past conditioning that has nothing to do with the present) or to RESPOND (tailored and suited to the present discussion.)

6- Go on, now add your own...

Dharma

Hello, just thought I?d let you know I?m still here?

It looks as if your pot is overflowing already, Willow: you put it out and the wealth of ideas pours in! (I associate this Community with Hexagram 42 also, particularly line 5.) I especially like what Wu Wei wrote about #42 - mainly because it seems related to what I?d been coming to think about it - which book is that from, Alisa? I read a review somewhere that said (basically) that he was no good. The passages you quoted make me reconsider!

So, meandering through Hexagram 39?

Hexagram 39 unchanging? Finding a place for everything would seem to be something of an uphill struggle. As immediate advice, this suggests a major re-think, gaining the inner solidity of the mountain as a basis for the plunge into outer activity - knowing who you are as you ?flow out? into new communities, perhaps?

The answer doesn?t seem to make a distinction between the people you know in the flesh and those you don?t. There is a cold, dark, lonely path in the northeast where you can struggle up the mountain alone, at least until the path peters out? Or there is the level ground of the southwest and friendly people to work with. IOW, the distinction is really between lonely struggle and co-operative effort, and there is nothing to be gained by isolating yourself. To stretch this a little - perhaps part of the imaginative effort of #39 is in finding different kinds of common ground, and seeing the Great People clearly wherever they appear.

Yet internet discussion seems to me, too (thank you, Dharma ) to be a new opportunity in communication. The experience of getting to know someone without knowing what they look like, or their nationality or how old they are, sometimes not even whether they?re male or female? extraordinary. Meeting more kindred spirits, maybe, or maybe meeting people who are far more challengingly different than anyone we?ve met in the flesh, even if only because we all have quite different backgrounds. I think the Sequence from #38 could come in here: ?turning away is bound to make it hard going?? But perhaps if we get our heads round the fact of difference (see 38, line 6!) we?re on the way towards finding common ground in the SW?

I see 38 and 39 are also complements. (Supa, are you out there?) Thinking on my feet? complements tend to be opposite sides of a single coin, radically different ways of embracing the same basic situation. Maybe here that coin could represent the experience of something unyielding and unassimilable? 38 might mean allowing it all its difference and living with it - or actively seeking out something new and foreign. But it stays alien even while you co-exist. 39? It certainly includes the idea of allowing yourself to be changed by the experience - considering utterly new paths, seeing the great people who?ve trodden them, and - well, everything Candid was talking about, really . Except that it sounds more remarkable in Karcher?s rather less English version:
?Chun tzu [aka junzi, ?superior man?, ?noble one??] uses reversing individuality to renovate actualising-tao [ie te].?

I have the feeling that I?ve grasped about 2% of the meaning of this complementary pair. Any more thoughts?

?Or about the core, Not Yet Across? It seems like one you could maybe relate to, the experience of feeling your way across the river towards new ways of relating online and off? Needing more resources and more certainty before you can complete the crossing?

Um, I did warn you this would be a meander. Hope it sparks some better ideas?

Hi everyone,

I find Dharma's comments to be mostly agreeable with my own understanding of it. This is interesting to me because I've been giving similar consideration to the inner-mind-circles and how gathering into this collective mind-circle works to increase all within the community.

My thoughts were on the question: Is the subjective experience of the inquirer symbiotic with that of the interpreter? I know that there have been times when my interpretation to an inquirer's question has been undeniably accurate for my own present situation. That?s commonly called, projection, as most here already know. But if this projection is in synch with the time, it can provide meaningful answers to both parties because it contains the seeds of intuition and a personal compassion to the inquirer and their question/reading. The difference is that one?s inner-circle be focus on the big picture (Tao) at the time of the reading and that the intentions are truly universal.

Yi has shown to me no bias nor differential value to either my real time or online communal involvement. I?ve asked Yi clearly, on more than one occasion, if online is just nonsense and am I advised to move to ?higher ground.? Its shown no priority, one over the next. Both involve real people, though some sit behind a keyboard miles away. I feel as though I know my friends online, albeit differently than those in real time. Like knowing someone from the inside-out. I take my online friendships as genuinely as those in my 3-D world. Each is still a real person, as real as if we were standing directly facing one another, r/t. Perhaps this makes me a fool, a cyber-addict? It doesn?t matter because it?s the channel through which I may connect with others. (8)

Having said that, I also believe in priorities and in living a full-dimensional life. If one develops only one part of the body, the brain or the soul, they become as lopsided as a one eared elephant. Balance in all things, including: levity to seriousness, joy to mourning, empathy to detachment, passion to reason; this, I believe is the middle path, and the most healthy.

~Candid

Greetings To All...

Hilary, I view the complimentary relationship between 38 and 39, as 38 being an external obstruction, and 39 as an indication that the person inquired about needs to do some *Soul Searching*. I tend to view 39 as an internal obstruction that was caused by the subject of the reading.

I hope this helps

Hi Hilary. The title of the book is <U>I Ching Wisdom</U>, Volume II. $9.95 US dollars

The entire book has 81 commentaries, not 64. Why 81, I don't know.

Other books by this author:

The I Ching, The book of changes and how to use it

I Ching Wisdom, Volume I

A Tale of the I Ching, How the book of changes began

I Ching Life, Living It

I Ching Readings, Interpreting the Answers

The I Ching Workbook, contains wu wei's entire I Ching

The I Ching Handbook, 12 Steps to Having Everything You Want
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi all, thank you so much. This was a reading that I was finding myself getting nowhere with on my own (lonely struggle), and the cooperative effort of friendly people is very helpful!

Looking at 38, then back at 39 really illuminates the nature of the inner block here. When I read 38 (external obstruction) I respond with, "yes, that's it!" and I see a certain grudge against the world that I've lived with for some time (but is now fading in strength). To read that knowing that I'm attempting to see how that is *not* the problem here, that I'm looking for an inner obstruction, is very helpful - I see how I've taken some real past experiences and fashioned them into a projection that I can hold onto long past it's usefulness.

I'll be back to say more later, but gotta go off to that other/same, not-distinct-from-this world now...

Just a quick update -- the short form of the insight I've come to here is that I've been drawing a distinction, a line down the middle, *within* myself, that is more properly drawn someplace else (if at all). I've been trying to see a difference where, as you each say, there isn't necessarily a difference to see. Or at least I've been taking an unhealthy attitude toward it.

All "healthy places" originate with an examination within, an examination of where one has imagined one's internal mountains and gorges, with turning the experience of being with one's own internal extremes, apparent conflicts, from that of lonely struggle to friendly cooperative effort.

PS, Dharma, that is a great list, and, yes, I'll add my own!