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Hex 8, line 3 - Inner people or outer people?

cassandra

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I would like to gather opinions on Hex 8, line 3, 4, 5. Especially line 3.

The question was "Are my reservations about X well founded?"

My big delemma is whether line 3 refers to inner thoughts/reservations or the literal person the question is about? In other words, are my reservations to be dismissed? Maybe I just can't see the forest for the trees.

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks.
 
R

richardz

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Hi Cassandra,

I'm replying but don't have the answer. I wrestle with the same thing as you do. I find hex 8 third line sometimes very difficult to interpret. Usually I solve this by asking the I Ching if it's internal or external.

Anyway I also am curious about what others think.

Kind regards,

Richard Zwart
 
C

candid

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Hi Cassandra and Richard,

My own response to line 3 is to check my inner condition first. If I know in my heart that I?m harboring ill will or an ?inferior? attitude, that?s the application I go with. The second thing I then look at is the use of my energy and time. I?d guess this is the norm with people here. But sometimes, it is quite literally saying, ?you?re hanging with people who aren?t good for you right now.? Then, I examine my associations.

Likewise, I apply the same inner-outer concept with lines 4 and 5. In 4, the person who is the ?center? of union is, I believe, first within ourselves. In the bigger picture, we draw the image of our inner condition onto our external reality and relationships, so they?re not really separate, but in dealing with a need-to-know immediate situation, I look inward before looking outward.

Line 5 has always intrigued me and I?ve received it a number of times while going through recent changes. I?ll attempt to paraphrase what it says to me: Let go of what isn?t meant for you to hold together with. It isn?t essential. Instead, narrow your focus and field of activity and concentrate on those things which will have a real influence, and hold onto what will further.

So many of the metaphors in the Ching can be expressed in common modern vernacular. To me, Holding Together is equivalent of saying, ?get it together? or ?keep it together.? Sometimes we might actually ask, ?how are you holding together??

Some of the wrong people we hold together with is our own self-talk. I once heard it said, ?if we talked to others the way we talk to ourselves we wouldn?t have any friends.?

As applied to your original question about X, Yi may be counseling to ?keep it together? within yourself. Once those inner adjustments are made and we?re ?holding together? with the best people there, we can then easily make the same application toward our outer world and its relationships.

Feedback?

Namaste,
Candid
 

louise

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What does 'Namaste' mean ? Everyones saying it all of a sudden.
With regard to Cassandras question I think when there several moving lines it can often refer to a sequence of events. The last line being the final outcome. So maybe you will have strong reservations about this person initially, perhaps then get to know them better, and finally leave it up to them how close you get, leaving them free to withdraw if they wish to.
 

bfireman

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Louise-

My understanding of namaste translates something like "the divine in me honors the divine in you", or "in recognition of the spirit residing in you"... Years ago I spent some time in Nepal, and it is the traditional greeting there. I do not know if it is a Buddhist thing, cultural thing, geographic thing, but it sure is one hell of a beautiful thing. Imagine walking on a trail w/ the giant peaks of the himalayas towering overhead, passing by another, and without sharing a single common word of language, you clasp your hands together at your chest, look each other in the eye, and say "namaste", with a big fat smile. It is absolutely beautiful. - Brian
 

mandy

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To be brief, the answer as to the translation of line 3 is in your original question. It represents exactly what you asked: your reservations. Take this as what it is (an indication of your fears). Don't focus too hard on that one line, it reflects the basis of your question only.
 
C

candid

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Hi Louise,

Here's a link to an excellent explanation of the term. I completely agree with Brian, its a beautiful phrase indeed. Imagine people acknowledging the Devine spirit in everyone else? Even the sound of it when pronounced correctly (see link) emits a wonderful vibe and its an effective mantra for this reason. Its purely synchronistic that Leonard came aboard and began using it at the same time as I began using it here. Its uses and origins cross over from Hinduism to Buddhism to Taoism. While I?m none of the above technically, I find it as natural as saying hello or have a good day.

http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/namaste1.html

I?m enjoying reading everyone?s interpretation of 8:3.

Namaste,
Candid
 

cassandra

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The consensus seems to lean toward the internal interpretation of line 3. Mandy's brief response hit the nail on the head. The interpretation should be limited/bounded by the question. My question had more to do with the nature of my reservations than the actual person involved.

I want to thank Candid for bringing me back to the essential meaning of the primary hexagram... I sometimes overlook that aspect of a reading while focusing on the lines. Candid, you also reminded me of how blury the line that divides inner from outer is when you look at it closely. I hate that sometimes.

Many thanks.
 
R

richardz

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I would also like to thank Candid for his response. Because I consulted the I Ching about a person a few days ago. I got hex 8, second, third and fourth line. Actually, I think the third line is about the internal me (jealousy in this case), the second and fourth line about the actual person (externally).

It's good to first ask yourself about you inner motives, it's also very hard to do when you're blinded.

Cheers everyone,

Richard
 

louise

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Thanks for the link Candid and your explanation Brian.
The interpretation of line 3 that Mandy suggested has never occurred to me before. Or rather, it has never really occurred to me, in a clear way what Cassandra says 'the interpretation should be limited by the question'. If I had that line (alone) I would tend to see it as confirming that my doubts are real. It is an interesting perspective I will find useful in my own readings.
The only thing that concerns me about the idea of the interpretation being limited by the question is that often Yi will address issues right outside the limits of the question, doesn't it ? This is often shown when you ask several different unrelated questions and get the same answer. There Yi would seem to be addressing some wider issue underlying all of the questions.

I think I have always tended to externalise the lines but I can see where you have 3 moving lines in a row it is quite possible the first one may just be stating the situation.
 

cassandra

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Louise,

In this particular instance, since there was doubt about who the subject of the line was, I referred back to my question. After examining the question closely it became clear that I was the subject of the question. I was questioning the integrity of my own reservations about X. The answer in that case is clearly about me. If I had asked about X directly as the subject I would have interpreted it as being about X.

This brings to mind the fluidity of the symbols and how they can address any situation at any point in time. The question asked is what brings the symbol to life. If I were to interpret line 3 as always being about someone else, it would make the symbol a static entity which is contrary to the spirit of the Yi.

I don't think this conflicts with the issue of the Yi bringing to light aspects of situations that we were unaware of. Can anyone else elaborate on this?
 

louise

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Hi Cassandra, overall did you eventually feel the answer to your question was that your doubts were unfounded or justified ?
 

mandy

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Louise,
(with regards to your concern about interpretation being limited by the question v Yi choosing to address other issues.)
How complex it can all seem! In my opinion, this is where ones awareness/understanding of the personality of the Ching (and yourself)is of greatest benefit. You need to be really in-tune. Sometimes i find the Ching will digress, much to my annoyance, to discuss a more pertinant point (it's rather like trying to have a conversation with a distracted friend who is waiting for you to stop talking so they can say something of REAL importance). It almost takes a sixth sense to comprehend the situation/aspect that the Ching is focusing on when you get a confusing reply. Knowledge dosn't come easily. Study of nuclear triagrams and previous hexagrams, as well as your innerself, often clarifies. Hindsight, always a valuable tool, has shown me how important this fine-tuning is.
Appolgies for this reply being neither as eloquent or profound as many of the above!!!
 

hilary

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This is turning into another one of my favourite pages! Thank you very much, everyone, and especially Mandy, Cassandra and Brian. (Richard, Candid and Louise already know how much I appreciate them
happy.gif
Candid, when are you going to write that I Ching book?)

I find the Yi almost always answers my question, unless I really only asked it to avoid thinking about something important. Sometimes it also answers the question I hadn't altogether consciously realised I was asking, or the one that I would have asked if I'd been being honest with myself. In other words, I'm the one who digresses.

Yi can be very gentle, but I've got used to a not-so-subtle subtext of 'Hello, is there a conscious being at home? Did you imagine you could get away without thinking about this? Welcome to the real world...' The 'ouch' school of divination, someone called it.

Mandy, how do you use the nuclear trigrams here? I've used nuclear hexagrams a great deal, but not their component trigrams so much. I would be really interested to see some examples.

The last time I remember receiving 8,3, by the way, it was definitely about the company I was keeping, metaphorically speaking: reading too many cynical books about marketing and losing touch with my own purpose. The message was unmissable. Hm - I wonder whether the use of this line to talk about personal doubts is like hexagram 12 referring to seeing other people as 'non-people' rather than what they really are?
 

lenardthefast

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Hi Cassandra,
Looks like I'm the Lone Ranger here, but my intuition(which is what I use to guide my own life) tells me that line 3 is refering to a real person; in fact the "X" person mentioned in your inquiry, and that your reservations are well-founded. Just another coin in the fountain and I don't have anything other than a 'feeling' to base it on(but its a real strong feeling!).

Namaste,

Leonard
 

cassandra

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Mandy and everyone,

I'm still grappling with this. I had a dream last night that took me back to a relationship that occured 18 years ago. In that relationship, I was in the shoes of X... the situation was reversed. That pretty much explains why I am having such difficulties with this. That makes it a bigger question, such as, 'Was what happened to me 19 years ago justified?'. I feel the need to be very cautious in how I handle this. If anyone would like to comment on this it would be welcome. It brings up some very interesting karmic issues. If anyone has knowledge of these things, speak up!

In looking at Hex 8, 3,4,5, again, it could simply be stating the current situation. If I look at the inner trigram as reflecting my inner attitude and the outer trigram as how I am presenting to the outer world (Cleary) it makes a lot of sense and clicks right into place. It is an accurate picture of current circumstances. (Not very flattering but born of confusion rather than deception.) Since that is the case, I am going to look to the relating Hex for guidance. The relating Hex is 62 and I've already come up with two conflicting ideas about that. I'm going to continue to turn it over in my mind and see what I come up with. I won't cast again until I have exhausted my efforts with this cast. Don't want to get my hand slapped with 4
happy.gif
 

mandy

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On the use of nuclear triagrams ... well, i'm self-taught and have been flying solo all these years (so nice to be able to discuss all this!)so this is my interpretation: i have always regarded nuclear triagrams as being the core of the question/er (not the answer). It's a bit like having a peek under the covers (not that i would do that, honest). It can be the motivation behind the question, the root of the enquiry - hence a reasonable guide as to whether the answer relates to the question - and can therefore express fears/hopes. Sometimes it can represent an individual person or situation (when i do a run on a particular subject i often find a nuclear hexagram throws back to a main or resulting hexagram from past question/s and tends to tie in quite nicely; it's like: "aha, so we're on that track are we!"). So, for me the nuclear hexagram is like a reference system. Sometimes i consider the two triagrams of the nuclear seperately, but usually only for the pictoral imagery. For instance, a question on the troubled situation of MrX, whom i dearly wanted to help, came up with H29 (6in3rd - oh so apt). To me, the nuclear triagrams H27 depicted my motivation. The imagery WAS me: standing at the foot of Mr.X's personal mountain, watching him teeting on the edge of the abyss, wanting to shout (thunder!) up at him to take care(silly man fell in, repeatedly). I'm not sure how other people interpret the nuclear triagrams, i'm not even sure if i'm doing it right, but it seems to work for me. Another thought: what about the nuclear of the nuclear? Hey, how many times can you split an atom? It's infinite isn't it? Or am i just confusing the matter? Sometimes, in interpretation, you can look too long, too hard. Often we miss the point, for we stumble past the simple answer in our search for a more satisfactory complex solution. Food for thought.
Good night.
p.s H62: keep grounded (you obviously are). Remember Icarus.
 

cassandra

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Mandy,

Thanks for the Icarus reminder. As for 62, when I called it the relating hex, I meant the resulting hex. I thought I read somewhere that it was called the relating hex too... maybe I have my terminology mixed up. Anyway, that's what I meant
happy.gif


I like your example of the nuclear hex. In my case (the dreaded hex 23)it seems to refer back to the old relationship that is swimming around in my unconscious and wreaking havoc in the current one.
 

heylise

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Lines 1 and 6 are ?outside the world?, so the nuclear hex. has to do with the part ?inside the world?, or rather inside man?s world.

From the bottom up the lines are earth-man-heaven-earth-man-heaven, but they are also earth-earth-man-man-heaven-heaven. So all lines except 1 and 6 have ?man?. I think that is the reason for 1 and 6 being outside, they are the only ones without man.

The nuclears form the realm of man. There are only 16 of them, and they all have line 2 = 4 and 3 = 5. IMO 2 is contacts and 4 is mind (ability to choose, decide, mental action). Line 3 is emotions, 5 is mental expansion. Lines 2 and 5 are the ones which go beyond the individual and connect him to the world, 3 and 4 are the principal domain of psychiatry, and what we feel most as ?me? in everyday life. It is very ?human? to connect feelings with thoughts or actions. Like e.g. the leader (5) who lets his own emotions (3) interfere with his way of leading. Or seeing other people (2) with a prefixed idea (4, decision).

I use the nuclear usually as an underlying pattern of the mind. Not specified to this question, but as the part of the mind which plays an important role in it, messing things up, or able to find a solution, it can be positive or negative, usually it has both possibilities in it.
With the nuclears one can divide the mind (psyche, feelings, everything) into 16 domains. Of these, 1, 2, 63 and 64 are core-of-the-core, they are deeper, more collective. The others are somewhere halfway between individual and collective.

LiSe
 

gene

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Hi Cassandra

I might add that it seems to me that there doesn't need to be a big discussion within you whether it is inner or outer. Sounds like you want to believe in this person no matter what the feeling is. I think the answer is the same whether it is inner or outer. There is a reason for the feelings. What are your motives for wanting to believe in this person?

Gene
 

gene

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One thing I might add about line 5, although the main discussion is line 3, is that here we allow those people into our lives who wish to be there, and those who do not, we let go. If line 3, 4, and 5 is received, we may want to review just what our ties are. Line four says hold to him outwardly also, but this is only true when there is a true and official relationship between the two parties. If there is not, the line 3 and 5 definitely apply. If all three lines occur, then the relating hexagram is #62, which counsels us to maintain closeness to our base of operations, or to those whom we truly trust and count on. Hopefully this helps.

Gene
 

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