When people become ideological I have observed a certain inflexibility can result. It's a side effect of experience to view things through one's left brain filters - which could be how one understands the Yi's hexes and lines - rather than apprehending things as they are. And one thing that has bothered me sometimes is how people can try to avoid personal responsibility for situations because a line says something "was fated." I say, we make our fate together with the help of God - we make the lines, they do not make us. If that ended because it "was fated", it is because you said that was so.

It's in the book. The Yi itself says that you cannot always determine what is to be by any oracle. In 42.2 "Someone's increase. Ten pairs of tortoise shells cannot oppose it...The king presents an offering to the Supreme Being. Auspicious." I think that means that sometimes what is to be or not to be cannot be determined by fortune telling. Here Oracles can tell you you are dead wrong 10 times, ye it doesn't matter, the oracle cannot prevail over your fortune. It is the interaction of our human agency and the Divine that determines our fate - not a line drawn in an oracle reading that speaks of difficulty or misfortune.

We create our fate, we create the lines. They do not create us. We have to master and own our fate, and the Yi is a tool towards that end of exercising our human, divine responsibility and potential.

Ok, tell me how I am wrong!

- LL

a line says something "was fated."

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It is the interaction of our human agency and the Divine that determines our fate

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It is well established in all methods of oracles and possibly all religions that fate does exist.
Fate meaning a situation which can NOT be changed or avoided, no matter what.
Some situations can be changed indeed, and the I Ching can point them out.
Some other situations are completely beyond our control, and again this is also pointed out.

Have you ever heard of the Serenity Prayer?
I'm not religious at all, but I'm citing it as there is great wisdom in these words:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

PS:

The Yi itself says that you cannot always determine what is to be by any oracle

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That is correct, and it goes for other methods of divination too.
That's why we have hexagrams like 51, and planet symbolism such as Uranus.
We are definitely meant to go through some surprises and shocks, no matter how much we divine.

I agree with diamanda, that some things cannot be changed.

Lava lamp, of course any reading is not set in stone. Earth is a planet of free will, we can do whatever we like. We can break things or make things. Derail a good situation or clear the filthy ting and use it for something wonderful. Yi (Tarot, runes, 8-ball, you name it) just gives us a second opinion on the matter at hand. Shirking responsibility because of the line is incorrect.

But a superior man should never create troubles for other people, he is free to follow his will as long as he brings something positive into the world, or at least some neutral action.

A line or hex in a reading is simply not the same thing as an immutable fate. It is maybe a finger pointing at the moon, but it is certainly not the moon itself.

Rather the Yi says oracles will be wrong even ten times opposing us - so better to ask the question, why would oracles oppose us? Why would they tell us we are wrong, when that is not the case, when that is not what is fated for us at all?

Worth asking, no?

- LL

It depends how "fate" is defined. Not everyone defines it the same. Wlhelm says a great deal about his own understanding of fate, 43 times all together.

If he knows how to meet fate with an attitude of acceptance, he is sure to find the right guidance. The superior man lets himself be guided; he does not go ahead blindly, but learns from the situation what is demanded of him and then follows this intimation from fate.

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If a man tries to hunt in a strange forest and has no guide, he loses his way. When he finds himself in difficulties he must not try to steal out of them unthinkingly and without guidance. Fate cannot be duped; premature effort, without the necessary guidance, ends in failure and disgrace.

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Only a strong man can stand up to his fate, for his inner security enables him to endure to the end. This strength shows itself in uncompromising truthfulness [with himself]. It is only when we have the courage to face things exactly as they are, without any sort of self-deception or illusion, that a light will develop out of events, by which the path to success may be recognized. This recognition must be followed by resolute and persevering action. For only the man who goes to meet his fate resolutely is equipped to deal with it adequately.

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It is the same in life when destiny is at work. We should not worry and seek to shape the future by interfering in things before the time is ripe. We should quietly fortify the body with food and drink and the mind with gladness and good cheer. Fate comes when it will, and thus we are ready.

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Several more, but I'll end with what is perhaps my favorite, which I think sums up the properties of fate and free will, the alignment of potential of something meant to be on our path - fortune and misfortune - and the decisions we make to make it so, or make it something other, which then becomes our fate.

Fire over wood:
The image of THE CALDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate
By making his position correct.

The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm
footing.

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Who can say why seemingly bad things happen to good people? The book of Job is an interesting study of this question. Elsewhere it is written: All things work for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

But a superior man should never create troubles for other people..

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I think this is a slippery slope. If a local meth addict breaks through my door I can guarantee you and him or her, they will meet with grave trouble by my hand. There's nowhere in the Yi that suggests pacifism toward unwarranted aggression. And that too is a slippery slope, but it does suggest that preparedness allows one to live without fear.

Superior Man is one of the great misunderstandings one can come away from the Yi with. A Young Noble, or jun zi, presents an image not of someone who has arrived at a superior state but one who will always be young and open, to being teachable, and seeking to match his or her will to the perfect way of heaven. Of course this is not possible, not even for the mythical gods and goddesses, so self-correction - like a ship's course being corrected, adjusting to countervailing forces of wind, currents and human miscalculation - means that obstacles and imperfections are also incorporated into ones fate. It's one of fate's most impressive teaching tools.

A shaman's path says:

Death is our eternal companion. It is always to our left, an arm's length behind us. Death is the only wise adviser that a warrior has. Whenever he feels that everything is going wrong and he's about to be annihilated, he can turn to his death and ask if that is so. His death will tell him that he is wrong, that nothing really matters outside its touch. His death will tell him, 'I haven't touched you yet.'

Carlos Castaneda (1931) Journey to Ixtlan

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sooo, If someone troubles you - of course you take defensive measures!

About all else I completely agree, feel the hand of God guiding you, and your life will improve. Allow this power to flow through don't fight it. It's way better than struggling alone.

ashteroid said:

sooo, If someone troubles you - of course you take defensive measures!

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Here, perhaps, is a more difficult question to answer. What if you see someone's vessel heading toward a rocky reef. Do you interfere, and to what measure is it right to do so? Campbell frequently used the example of standing on a bridge, and a complete stranger is about to leap off that bridge to end their life. Without a thought to your own life, you reach out to grab the man to save him. His point was how we can intuitively recognize the oneness of yourself and the complete stranger. But then I ask, have I interfered or done harm to that man's fate, or have I preserved his life to create a better fate, or possibly a worse fate?

A doctor takes an oath to do no harm, yet he may decide to amputate limbs to preserve the person's life, or remove a brain tumor that will leave that one dependent upon life support for their duration. To say nothing of the complications involved with abortions. Not everything is black or white where help or harm is concerned, and not everyone will agree on which is which.

I've made these decisions for myself, and I think it's right for others to do likewise regarding a living will. But of course that doesn't solve every possible decision of right or wrong. If this was the case, there would be no wars. There wouldn't even be arguments. It seem fate's hand is even in these oppositions. So when you say, "a superior man should never create troubles for other people, he is free to follow his will as long as he brings something positive into the world, or at least some neutral action," what do these things say? Isn't neutral action no action, which to one means pacifism and to another wu wei? Does an abortion bring something good into the world? One might answer yes; another, no.

I think that's why a young noble remains impressionable while a Superior Man has their mind made up already as to what does harm and what prevents harm. One is open and not yet. The other is shut and has reached their end.

lavalamp said:

When people become ideological I have observed a certain inflexibility can result. It's a side effect of experience to view things through one's left brain filters - which could be how one understands the Yi's hexes and lines - rather than apprehending things as they are. And one thing that has bothered me sometimes is how people can try to avoid personal responsibility for situations because a line says something "was fated." I say, we make our fate together with the help of God - we make the lines, they do not make us. If that ended because it "was fated", it is because you said that was so.

It's in the book. The Yi itself says that you cannot always determine what is to be by any oracle. In 42.2 "Someone's increase. Ten pairs of tortoise shells cannot oppose it...The king presents an offering to the Supreme Being. Auspicious." I think that means that sometimes what is to be or not to be cannot be determined by fortune telling. Here Oracles can tell you you are dead wrong 10 times, ye it doesn't matter, the oracle cannot prevail over your fortune. It is the interaction of our human agency and the Divine that determines our fate - not a line drawn in an oracle reading that speaks of difficulty or misfortune.

We create our fate, we create the lines. They do not create us. We have to master and own our fate, and the Yi is a tool towards that end of exercising our human, divine responsibility and potential.

Ok, tell me how I am wrong!

- LL

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I think fate and destiny are often confused as far as I can see. Another way to summarise it would be the following:

Picture standing in front of a huge wall that is your life. You have a brush in hand with one paint pot of one colour. That is fate.

Picture standing on front of that same wall with a brush in hand and an infinite line of paint pots with an equally infinite array of colours. That's destiny.

Coming back from thoughts of superposition vs fixed or Newtonian law, wave vs particle behavior - my answer to lava's original question is: yes, and no, and yes and no.

Parsing what fate is vs destiny is really only avoiding the question, why would the oracle challenge us 10 times with predictions of ill fortune? So is quoting all the places in the Yi that talk about yielding to authority, or the universe, or the time. As if that proves we do not "make the lines?"

What I am trying to address is a certain fatalistic way of looking at the Yi. It is similar to the problem created by Hinduism's view of reincarnation. Why bother working for social justice, it's all Karma, it's all a result of the past and therefore as it should be one might say. So yield to fate - and end up with a great deal of injustice, a caste system, homeless children with aids all over the streets, there is no way to change anything anyway.

But if we look at ourselves as co creators, we make the lines. We create fate, are not just looking to see what it is so we can harmonize best with it, but are creating the reality we desire, creating love and justice of our own selves. And of course as Bono has pointed out, "grace trumps karma." If there is a a higher cause we serve, of we have a real cause, we are certainly going to be opposed by more than a few lines in an oracle...

- LL

lavalamp said:

Parsing what fate is vs destiny is really only avoiding the question, why would the oracle challenge us 10 times with predictions of ill fortune? So is quoting all the places in the Yi that talk about yielding to authority, or the universe, or the time. As if that proves we do not "make the lines?"

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Well, if I'm understanding you correctly LL...I guess I don't see the Yi as a fortune-telling tool but rather a set of alchemical teachings where predictions are really only possible futures which may be chosen based on ones level of awareness at that point in time-space. Behind the "fortune-telling" word usage are deeper layers which are much more 4th dimensional than 3-D you might say. In other words, The Book of Changes could be the story of our own inner changes in the expanded and fluid now which is forever replicating itself at the point of thought inception. (Many worlds theory, parallel universes, quantum tunnelling etc.)

So, yes, it offers insights at that precise moment that the question is asked in order that such a "co-creation" between oneself in the present and ones completed self in the "future" can be actualised. So, the only challenge from the Yi is one we set ourselves as to whether or not we choose, based on the effort and the natural process to learn and SEE, or to choose what we want to see via wishful thinking and our own preconceptions.

So, perhaps the Yi has manifested as a conduit and tool so that we may beyond these restrictions and fatalistic ideas towards individuated destiny - with all those unique parameters - if we so choose.

lavalamp said:

What I am trying to address is a certain fatalistic way of looking at the Yi. It is similar to the problem created by Hinduism's view of reincarnation. Why bother working for social justice, it's all Karma, it's all a result of the past and therefore as it should be one might say. So yield to fate - and end up with a great deal of injustice, a caste system, homeless children with aids all over the streets, there is no way to change anything anyway.

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Absolutely, in one sense I don't think we need to change the external world at all. Could it be that the Yi is about changing ourselves so that the external reality becomes a natural reflection of those changes through an elected self-response-ability. Not that we use karma and navel-gazing as justifications to do nothing either. Knowledge has to be applied for it to flower. But I think that true inner change does change reality and in a way that aligns with the Creative Universe as is rather than flowing against it by harbouring ideas about creating reality according to our own selfish desires often subtly wrapped up in altrusitic camouflage. I don't believe the Universe adapts to us - we adapt to it, aligning to its creative or entropic face. The trick is determining which is which...Enter the I Ching to assist in that process.

lavalamp said:

if we look at ourselves as co creators, we make the lines. We create fate, are not just looking to see what it is so we can harmonize best with it, but are creating the reality we desire, creating love and justice of our own selves. And of course as Bono has pointed out, "grace trumps karma." If there is a a higher cause we serve, of we have a real cause, we are certainly going to be opposed by more than a few lines in an oracle...

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Yes. And the few lines are symbolic of the potential details of precisely those oppositions that we might face. The yin and yang of choices with consequences. Yes and No. Can we make those choices with as much awareness as possible? If we can then there is no right or wrong. In that vain, we cannot be forewarned about the choices we decide to make until we are prepared to work at understanding if our choices are authentic and lead to growth and harmony; borne of that "future" completed self, or a choice sourced from the bio-chemicals of accumulated hurts, infant imprinting and conditioning...

To that end, maybe the Yi acts as an objective guide as we swim in our own vessel of subjectivity up and up towards that elusive light?

But as ever...Who knows? :bows:

But if we look at ourselves as co creators, we make the lines (...) creating the reality we desire

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Lavalamp, what are you trying to say? I'm not sure what your point is.
It sounds like you're saying:
That it doesn't really matter what lines/hexagrams we receive for a question.
Because no matter what the answer says, we can see to it that what we want happens anyway.

Is this your point?

I just came across 50. The superior man consolidates his fate by making his position correct.

hmmm

I think of Destiny as being one of those obscure predictions like, "You are destined to be in on a Broadway stage!" and then Fate being how that actually manifests - like are you the star of the show or are you a janitor hired to sweep up the stage after everyone goes home?

What does "The superior man consolidates his fate by making his position correct" mean? Maybe he prepares himself for opportunity? The ting is broken and unwashed so the superior man repairs it so when the fated opportunity arrives he is in a position to take advantage of it? If we know we are "fated" to do something we should accept it and go with it?

Destiny determines the distant future.
Fate determines the near future.
Habit determines the immediate future.
Freewill determines the now.

rosada