Earlier this evening I was perusing other areas of this site and came across something Hilary wrote about hexagram 8 changing to 2 for a woman pursuing a man. She didn't elaborate. I tend to interpret the I Ching pretty simply, mostly intuitively, and in the few days I've been reading this site, I've seen so many different and wonderful approaches.

I'd love to hear interpretations, feelings, experiences, etc. from the members here about this combination.

THANKS!

Hi Val, i got this combination recently when asking if it was necessary to explain to my family the path I am pursuing. I also got line 1.
Intuitively I took it to mean (line 5) that they would let me go my own way - not pursue/ask for explanations. This did turn out to be the case.

Well, just realised not the exact combination you asked about as of course I had line 1 moving also.

With the combination you mention I would take it pretty literally if it were about a woman pursuing a man. That is she is open and receptive to advances but if he appears elusive or unwilling she is better not to pursue him, but to let him go his own way.

That's almost exactly what I had in mind. The idea of the king's open-ended hunt is an idea I've heard of in other hunting cultures, that the animals that are caught have given themselves up voluntarily (and shou. So this applies to anyone in pursuit of other people - the difference between letting them come to you freely, and trying to encircle them on all sides and trap them.

One of my earliest and funniest experiences of this line was as advice when I was trying to get my customer numbers into double figures (OK, not sure if it was that bad, but something of the sort). Hexagram 8, line 5 is rather acidly pointed advice to novice marketers. (For the precise opposite of its idea, do a Google search for 'hypnotic marketing'...)

Hilary --

Thanks! Your answer is the very reason I posted this question.

When I've read this hexagram and the changing line (5th place), my response has always been "DOH!" It's the basic tenet of intimate relationships. You can't 'coerce' feelings, either in yourself or in others. You can try... and may experience some degree of success in manipulating another into union initially, but only temporarily. One or the other of the players in this less-than-healthy game will eventual tire of it and quit playing. My take on this particular transition of hexagrams is simply to make oneself available to union and be receptive...period. But that whole message is a given, and I don't believe the I Ching is all that disposed to stating the obvious. So I asked for input...to see what I'm missing here.

BUT...I never thought of applying this line to a marketing relationship. Coersion or manipulation is what advertising is all about. There are some products and services that do not lend themselves to profit through coersion, however. Apparently yours is one of them.

I did as you suggested and looked up hynotic marketing on google. I looked at three sites about Joe Vitale's marketing approach. Yes it is, indeed, the opposite of the message in line 5 of Hex 8. Here's the thing about his marketing approach that is hardly unique and has been used over and over and proven successful for many years and will continue to be successful for many more years to come. Without buying his book, I've no doubt he's selling tried and true methods of advertising that many before him have sold, giving it a title, "Hypnotic Marketing," that implies it's an innovative new method. Pfffffft. Network television is the perfect vehicle for actual hypnotic advertising and has been used as such almost from it's inception.

It may be altogether obvious and a given to you, Val, but I think that makes you a little unusual . It's been my experience that the I Ching is more than prepared to state the blindingly obvious when I'm totally failing to see it.

The operative term could be 'deceptive simplicity'. Think of 40's Judgement - if there's anywhere to go, it's a good idea to get on with it; if the path doesn't lead anywhere, useful to turn back. Duh. But how often does anyone actually manage that?

BTW, it's certainly possible to push people's buttons to make them order readings - you just tell them you can reunite them with their lost loves and reveal their winning lottery numbers, and no way can they succeed in life without your help. It's being done all over the place, not least online. There may also be ways to do it without lying through one's teeth, but in any case, I can't imagine that the reading at the end of the day would do anyone any good. 40 all over.

Maybe we shouldn't be too hard on Joe (or Larry, or whoever else). There's a fine line between responding to what people truly need, and using those needs to manipulate them. 8,5 was the best advice for me at the time, but 15,5 might sometimes be needed as well...

Hilary...

Yes coercion, manipulation and lying through one's teeth can definitely be applied to the 'psychic reading' business...and is. But apparently it's not applicable to YOUR services. There's a thing that comes into play called integrity. I don't believe one can immerse oneself in the study of the I Ching without being inculcated with the concept of integrity...and I feel it all over this site. However, I'd be interested to hear if it's ever advised anyone to lie through their teeth to gain great financial success.

And I'm not being hard on Joe (or Larry) at all. I apologize if I gave that impression. That they know how easily people can be duped by something as simple as new packaging and phrases such as "All new and improved," is impressive. That they can profit from this knowledge is even more impressive. That they CHOOSE to profit from this knowledge is not for me to judge. The advertiser/consumer relationship is all very symbiotic anyway. People WANT to spend their money. I can't fault a person (or industry) for trying to convince them HOW to spend their money. I was just trying to make the "superficial changes to sell the same product" point about Joe's package.

And yes, I know that not a lot of people understand that feelings cannot be coerced. There'd be little demand for psychologists if not for that fact. I wasn't clear enough, but my intent was to say it's a given in MY communications with the I Ching.

As synchronicity would have it, I just got the Hex 8 to Hex 2 right after I started reading this forum. I saw all the different approaches both in asking and interpreting here, so I asked the I Ching "What should I do about [insert my shy muse's name here]?" The omniscient I Ching knows that line 5 is my approach to intimate relationships, and I know it wouldn't state the obvious, so I tend to view the definitions of changing lines as sometimes important, and sometimes as a means to an end...the transition to the second hexagram...sort of like punctuation to make a complete sentence...if you get my drift.

That's been especially true if I get three or more lines and lines that contradict each other because I've read a couple of authors who have cautioned about getting too bogged down in the changing lines. However, early man believed that unseen spiritual entities caused earthquakes, floods and solar eclipses and that the world was flat until science questioned and proved those assertions wrong. So I, too, question my learning. And being all too aware of my ignorance of the I Ching and being curious about and eager to benefit from the different approaches that are fueled by the different needs and value and belief systems of the members here, I have spent a lot of my free time over the last few days glued to this forum reading, reading, reading. (Thanks again for this great opportunity!) As a result, I've seen a number of learned people here place a good deal of importance on the changing lines including transitions involving several lines and with sound reason for doing so. I may come away from this thread with the same feeling about line 5 I had when I opened it, or I may come away with an 'all new and improved' awareness of it...*grin*

Interestingly enough, line 5 of hexagram 8 does not necessarily say that the person in question wants to flee, it only says, if they do, then let them. The real question is, "are we seeking union by force?" So, in a sense, the I Ching throws the question back at us. It is saying, watch the signs. And interestingly enough, it turns into H2 which says to be receptive. Therefore it is not a time of action, but a time of watching, let the other person make the move.

Gene

Interesting that the pure yin goddess of the Greeks and Romans was Diana, goddess of the hunt, no? This string is starting to make me very nervous!

Lindsay

Coercion or manipulation is what advertising is all about? I'd hate to think this is always the case. Having worked in the advertising/marketing field for over 25 years, and having just completed a "sounds of comfort" radio commercial for a heating & air conditioning company, I can either take offense to the statement or narrow your brush stroke down a few inches.

This website is a commercial venture as well as an act of love. The logo is an advertisement and every feature has a marketing element.

The cover of Wilhelm's Ching was designed to attract a target market.

Lipstick advertises a woman's openness.

People have the option to listen, read or look at advertisements, or not. It generates interest and moves commerce. Much of it is personally distasteful to me but I make no moral judgments about it.

I suppose another option would be to pass out the little drab blue commie hats and force everyone to look and act exactly the same. No signs, no commercialism, capitalism, individualism or freedom.

I'm not nervous like Lindsay over this thread, just a little angry.

Candid

Hi Candid,

I find it hard to believe that after 25 years in the business you would be so naive as to say you don't think advertising/marketing has nothing to do with manipulation. You mean your 'sounds of comfort' commercial was paid for by the heating and air conditioning company you work for as a benevolent gesture and not to influence/manipulate the public into buying their product?
And what about 'subliminal' advertising, which has been shown to be so powerful at manipulating the public that it was supposedly 'banned' by the government?
Candid, just because you work in an industry, that unfortunately does not make it a non-manipulative one.
I'm not saying here that 'you' are manipulative, just that your industry has always been about manipulating the public, thats its JOB.
Namaste,
Leonard

Hi Leonard - good to see you again.

Your argument is also manipulative. You are trying to persuade by illustrating a point. The I Ching is manipulative by essentially doing the same thing. Every book ever written is manipulative, as is every expression of a point of view.

You make the error of confusing persuasive with manipulative. If a company has a strong product or service, if it legitimately fills a niche market, how can the company so express their strength to the available marketplace without talking to the market? If you can answer that, you will win the advertising award of the century.

Should we also ban search engines for availing shamelessly the websites they promote? Let?s force Logitech to remove their clever logo from their mouse, Samsung from their monitor and Levis from our jeans. In fact, let?s ban all active, inactive and subliminal messages from the airwaves and printed media. And in its place, a plain black and white label which reads: Courtesy of Big Brother.

Candid

Hi Candid,

Good to be back.

In regards to your last post I think the key ingredient here is economic gain. Where finances are involved, unfortunately, there is frequently greed present. It is the element of greed which,IMHO, brings out the manipulation. The IChing has no need to 'manipulate' the masses for there is no finacial reward for 'it' in so doing. Likewise, my 'arguement' right or wrong, does not bring me fortune or take fortune away from me.

Advertising, as it has come to be in the world, is all about greed and financial gain, IMHO.

I am in the business at the moment of selling a product(custom motorcycles) and products(aftermarket performance increases for same). I am really good at it because I don't 'sell' in the normal fashion. When I am in contact with a customer I listen to what he/she is saying that they want/desire and then, if I have the solution to their need/desire I tell them so. I NEVER try to sell MY products/services to the customer by manipulation. If they come to me and want to buy a product, and I know of another product offered by another company that I think would fit their needs(after listening to them), I will tell them about the competitors product and explain why it serves their purpose better than mine. Invariably that customer has returned later to buy a product from me that DOES meet his needs; and he frequently refers his friends to me because by being truthful with my customers I establish trust and when people find someone who they can trust, who also has a product they need/desire, they come back.

I have never 'persuaded' anyone to buy MY product rather than a competitors, yet my phone is ringing off the hook 12 hours a day and more. So, IMHO, I believe the 'manipulation' appears when a multitude of companies 'compete' to sell essentially the same products/services, but 'need' to 'manipulate' the buyers into thinking 'theirs' is better than the 'competition'.

Peace be with you.
Namaste,
Leonard

I have a feeling that maybe the difference here between Candid and Leonard, both in the business of selling things, is more of vocabulary than anything. Establishing trust, you have persuaded people to buy from you again. Or have you 'manipulated' them into it? At least one object of the exercise, after all, is to get repeat custom and that invaluable word-of-mouth. You've just found that honesty, and 8,5, is actually the world's most effective long-term marketing strategy. As Gene sensibly points out, it doesn't actually say that everyone is trying to flee...

Candid is absolutely right, of course, that this website has a marketing message. (Has anyone looked at the bottom of this page recently?) When I redesigned it, I had firmly in mind the creation of nice, easy, clickable routes to lead from initial curiosity to spending money. And I did spend a lot of time writing and re-writing its 'copy'. And the result is a great increase in the number of people receiving readings, taking courses, starting or deepening a relationship with the Yi. I am seriously happy with it!

There's an obvious difference between truthful and untruthful messages, subliminal or otherwise. The Yi can help put you back in the driving seat of life: true. It can fix your life for you: false. Likewise the bike is fast but will not make you irresistible; the heating system is reliable and comfortable but will not stop your family arguing.

But can any of us selling things honestly say that our customers buy purely because of rational decisions about what they need, based purely on the facts about the product? (No) Do we go out of our way to force them to do so, and block self-deception at every turn? (In personal contacts before a reading, yes. In the copy? I don't know.) My black and white truthful/untruthful distinction just turned a murky grey.

Associating a product with a deep-seated desire is meat and drink of advertising - 'buying more stuff will make your life better'. Of course, we're all the ones who go and buy it. Our responses create the advertising, as much as vice versa. If the cycle is a vicious one, who is responsible for breaking it?

Candid has a seriously good point - no, we don't want to live in North Korea, I do see what you mean. I hope I haven't exuded too much hypocrisy on this page. So, is there a third way?

Hilary - You've exuded no such hypocrisy that I can detect. You discriminated nicely, I think, between the relationship of ethics and economy. (61 and 7?)

Leonard - The sales/marketing method you are using to sell custom motorcycles was coined in the west as "the needs assessment" technique by Xerox back in the late 70s. It is also the sales/marketing approach I "use" in selling high end "home comfort systems."

The commercial, btw, simply introduces 'the sounds of comfort', which consists of 20 (of 30) seconds of tasty jazz, ending with a few seconds of children laughing, and a brief tag, 'this moment is brought to you by: Advantage Heating & Air - your home comfort specialists.' Its ulterior purpose is to "position" the company as credible and safe to approach. But, it is being paid for by the company for a purpose, to generate sales leads and to "brand" our the name into the mind of the marketplace. That the approach takes the high road is meaningful, but it doesn't exclude it as a commercially motivated marketing effort to generate cash flow and profit.

Our company 2003 sales goal shows only marginal growth, choosing instead to focus on streamlining the company's 'insides' so as to deliver an even better product and service to our customers.

I confess to missing the association of 8 to 2 with advertising though. The 5th line says (to me), let go of what isn't meant for you to cling to or to hold together with. Focus only on the attainable, that is, what avails itself to you. Then again, it can of course be applied toward a marketing effort known as "niche marketing."

As for greed, life force is greedy. It takes from its available surroundings to survive and grow. Ever watch a lion take down its prey? Its purpose is to consume in order to grow and flourish. Fire is greedy, it consumes all available fuel. That some of us content ourselves with less is our own way of taking from our availed resources in order to grow and flourish in the manner in which we've chosen. Many of us just greed for inner peace and a meaningful life. We choose refined nourishment, perhaps, but we're still just as greedy for it and needy of it. Fire still clings to her fuel and earth still relies on heaven.

Namaste,
Candid

Hello all-

This conversation is really interesting. Seems like some hard lines have been taken, yet it seems there is much more "grey" to be explored. I can't help but think of intent as the key motivational force behind one's actions. With that in mind, marketing and advertising can at times seem pure yang, extremely manipulative and deceptive, while other times pure yin, very honest, truthful, and heartfelt. And then there is the space between. Where and how one positions onself in this cycle is where action/non-action seem to manifest. It is so interesting how universal the yi is over thousands of years. Once those changing lines illustrating the proper direction for the hunt and another time illustrating proper marketing strategy. Candid, I have never thought of the word greed while imaging the life force, love, or fire clinging to its fuel source, but I do think I feel what you mean. I need to ponder this some more.

A quick little verse to end, chapter 81 of tao te ching as translated by stephen mitchell:

True words aren't eloquent;
eloquent words aren't true.
Wise men don't need to prove their point;
men who need to prove their point aren't wise.

The master has no posessions.
The more he does for others,
the happier he is.
The more he gives to others,
the wealthier he is.

The Tao nourishes by not forcing,
By not dominating, the Master leads.

Peace - Brian

Hi Brian,

Slept late 'cause its Sunday and since I usually turn the cpu on while having my first cup of coffee I would like to thank you for eliminating my need this morning for the Mennen Skin Bracer.

Guess I was getting a little too fiesty with Candid and the poem you posted had the virtual impact of a healthy slap to the brainpan.

We know, but we frequently forget. Then again, thats why we so ardently continue to seek. Anyway, thanks, Brian.

Candid, I apoligize if I came on too strong, there was nothing personal intended.

Peace to you all.

Namaste,
Leonard

Hi Brian,

Wow, what definitions are rising to the surface! "at times seem pure yang, extremely manipulative and deceptive, while other times pure yin, very honest, truthful, and heartfelt." What the..??? Is this what you mean by not being black or white?

Guess this calls for a discussion in the future on how each of us perceives Yin and Yang? I sure don't see it anything like Brian has described.

Also, book of Tao itself is a contradiction. Those who speak do not know. How then was it written?

Words are metaphors to express thoughts and feelings. Speaking them does not nullify knowing. Out of the fullness of the heart, the mouth speaketh. Its only when someone must be validated by their words that the emptiness of their heart is revealed. I believe that is the spirit of book of Tao.

Candid

Leonard, heck no I'm not offended. What a puny forum this would be if it didn't have the breadth and clarity to support healthy debate.

One key factor though, so long as criticism of another's point of view is what's criticized, and not the person themselves, its never taken personally.

Re descriptions of 'the wise man' ie 'The more he does for others, the happier he is'.

I feel the need to point out (obviously indicating myself as not wise)that this poem describes one already in an enlightened state. I do not think it is a recommendation for a certain behaviour. People don't reach enlightenment by copying the behaviour of enlightened people. I think that is an error of belief often made.

That is the wise (enlightened man) may well be utterly unselfish - that is natural for him. However if we who are unrealised aimed to do this
we should probably end up completely neurotic. Infact you only have to look around to see millions of good people doing immense harm to themselves by trying to do so much for others.

I guess I'm just saying the enlightened man is naturally effortlessly unselfish - because he's established in his true nature. So while its good to help others I still think its more important to get yourself realised then you can not but be in accord with nature. So the nub of what I'm saying is there no point trying to emulate the behaviours of wise/enlightened - if you're not.

I'm not by the way - in case you hadn't noticed.

Hi Val,

Well, we have certainly come a long, convoluted way in this thread; what with dogs, cats, poop, marketing(of oneself/products/services), wise men/women, enlightened/unenlightened souls, etc., etc.

But, to get back to your original inquiry, I believe Candid pretty much summed up what I think is the closest to the answer concerning line five, as regards your inquiry in his previous post, and I quote,"I confess to missing the association of 8 to 2 with advertising though. The 5th line says (to me), let go of what isn't meant for you to cling to or to hold together with. Focus only on the attainable, that is, what avails itself to you." I second that motion most emphatically!

Namaste,
Leonard

Hola todos!

I'm loving the direction this thread has taken. Such passion!

Here's some of my own. "Lipstick advertises a woman's openness." That's a great advertising slogan, Candid! It might convince some other incredibly open women like myself who don't wear lipstick...or makeup of any kind...to wear it. It won't convince me, though, because it's so far from my truth. I don't wear it except to some meetings where I'm trying to sell my services. I don't because I feel wearing it says I'm not okay with myself as I am and feel I need superficial, artificial adornment to be better. I do wear it to some sales meetings because I'm appealing to the others' probable value systems to try to actuate, advise, affect, allure, assure, blandish, brainwash, bring around, cajole, coax, convert, convince, counsel, draw, enlist, entice, exhort, get, impel, impress, incite, incline, induce, influence, inveigle, lead, manipulate, move, persuade, prevail upon, prompt, propagandize, proselyte, proselytize, reason with, satisfy, seduce, sell, stroke, sway, talk, touch, urge, wear down, wheedle, win over, woo, wor (or whatever) them [insert 'in,' 'into' or 'on' here as appropriate] buying my services. *big lipstick-free grin*

I agree with Hilary. It's a matter of vocabulary...or semantics. And it's a matter of what values we as individuals place on words as to which work for us and which don't. Synonyms are wonderful things. Viva la difference. I also feel that coerce and coercion are words too strong to apply to ALL methods of advertising, and it was inappropriate for me to juxtapose coercion with manipulation when referring to advertising in general.

I don't have a problem with saying I was being manipulative when I used the color green on my daughter's business website. I was applying the psychology of color, green being associated with wealth (among others things), to [insert verb of your choice from list above here] people [insert 'in,' 'into' or 'on' here as appropriate] calling her. I used a black background, something I personally don't like to do or see, on a music store site after doing research that indicated to me the company's potential clientele, musicians, would be most comfortable with that color background. I did it for the same reason. When I adjust the contrast and color levels and resolution of the images I use on websites, I do it for the same reason, and I deal with the fine line between 'modifying print images for the web' and dishonesty and the shades of grey between honesty and dishonesty as I move those adjustments levers in any direction. I do it all for the same reason. Call it what you want. It doesn't change what I do or why I do it. I do it for advertising.

Further, whenever I do watch television (which is rarely), the national spots are my favorite programming. I get a lot of entertainment value from them. The production value of commercials that go national is so much higher than regular television programming production (a lot more money is spent on them too). And many print ads are often very entertaining.

But, Candid, people are bombarded by advertising everywhere at every turn and don't always have the option not to look. Try driving down Sunset Boulevard (or any major thoroughfare in any major city) and saying, "People have the option to...look at advertisements, or not." Imagine the accidents if they chose not. As a matter of fact, I was just behind a city bus yesterday at a red light that had a big ad for Jesus across it's rear end that filled my entire field of vision...*grin*

And, Candid, like it or not, Betty Friedan had a reason for writing the "Feminine Mystique," Jerry Manders, a former advertising executive, had a reason for writing "Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television," federal and state governments have reasons for legislating a plethora of Truth in Advertising Acts.

It's because advertising has the power to influence and because the fine lines Hilary mentioned and shades of grade Brian mentioned exist. And, like it or not, many methods of advertising DO stretch or broach the fine lines, populate the darker shades of grey and abuse the power to influence. Many don't. Through the ages...past and present. The future as well?

No one said ban advertising. No one said ban capitalism. We were talking about picking and choosing our methods carefully. Some have integrity, some don't and some violate one Truth in Advertising Act or another.

Gene...

Thank you! I'm watching the signs as you say...and being receptive. I took the action of making myself available this Saturday night, and I had a great time! Afterward, I asked the I Ching "How'd I do?" It answered Hex 19 change to Hex 34.

Hi Candid-
Yeahhhhh, that was a bit confusing. I was not trying to imply yin equals this, yang equals that. I was trying to relate a feeling in relation to the conversation between yourself and Leonard regarding marketing as either manipulative or non-manipulative in nature, yet I feel I misinterpreted you both in stating that "some hard lines have been taken". My feeling is that it is not the inherent nature of marketing or advertising to be either this or that. It seems the motivation and intent to be real crucial here. One can be lying through one's teeth for purely selfish gain on one hand, or one can be acting from a place of true kindness and compassion. In mentioning the grey area, probably most of one's intent in marketing is some sort of balance between these two extremes. That is all, and of course just my opnion. In mentioning yin/yang, I must be much more clear than that last post. In attempting to understand the various hexagrams of the i-ching and just what the hell those verses of the tao te ching are talking about, I do try to find relationships between intent, internal thoughts\feelings, and external actions in relation to the "words" yin and yang. It is an ongoing inner dialog of questiong how the energies I feel are embodied in these words relates to everying I experience, external and internal.

Peace - Brian

Thanks, Val

And thanks everyone for making what appears to me to be a great site, and a great opportunity. A great forum for the interchange of ideas. I used to be a chat host for a tarot chat room on prodigy, but have not been interactive with other people on the computer for a long time.

Thanks Hilary, for making a site like this available.

Gene

Hi Val,

My original statement was: "Coercion or manipulation is what advertising is all about? I'd hate to think this is always the case." The active word there is, always.

Naturally I'm aware of false and misleading advertising. As I've said, I find it distasteful.

And, your right about the density and imposing nature of the advertising medium, especially in the types of markets you've described. Its one of the reasons I've chosen to live in the middle of some God forsaken desert! *grin*

I love your list of verbs too, btw! With a golden tongue like yours, who needs lipstick!

heh heh
Candid

I don't know whether it was in this thread or not, but someone somewhere said, "look at someone's profile." I can't figure out how to do that without a password, I did put a partial profile out there of myself, but can't figure out how to look at anyone else's.

Thanks, Gene

Gene...

I said something to you in the "Waiting, etc" thread about not taking myself too seriously and that my personal quote in my profile was a good example. That is IF you get my humor which is rather strange.

Just click on my double name in the header of this message and it should take you to my profile.

Ciao for now

Val

I like your humor

Gene

BTW the type seems to be just fine on netscape now, must have been a temporary thing.

Gene