Hallo everyone, not my first post, but I'm a hopeless newbie nevertheless, so I'm looking for a bit of a hand on this question.

I've recently found myself once more in the company of a young lady (L) who I was rather keen on a year or two ago, but hadn't really seen since (because of job changes). Everyone told me that she was interested too ("its obvious!" they'd say gleefully), and we got on great. But my tentative advances always seemed to be rebuffed. Just too tentative perhaps, but I concluded at the time that she knew I was interested but simply wasn't interested in me in the same way, and forgot about it.

Of course, it isn't that easy, and seeing her again reminds me how smart and adorable she is, and so I asked "should I pursue L?" and received hex 21 with changing lines at 2, 3 and 5. Huang recommends only consulting the middle of the three lines when there are three so thats "biting cured meat, find a bad bit, oh well- you'll get better. its mostly good" (I'm paraphrasing). The relating hex is 1.

This looked as if it was saying yes, you might get a little burnt, or might have to stick your neck out a bit further than is comfortable for this girl, but give it a go. Hex 1 seemed auspicious too.

Then I kicked myself for asking a question with a yes or no answer again (too hasty!) and rephrased it to "what will happen if I pursue L?" and got 21 again right away, with changing lines at 3 and 4 (huang suggests reading the lowest, so its the same as the first time), so changing to 22.

So, says I, thats pretty resolute there, whatever happens, I'd be biting through. Which I'm reading as a "take action and really do something about it if you want it" message. I'd be interested in any comments on that?

But the difference between the secondary hexagrams interest me too - My understanding of the relationships between the primary and secondary is flakey at best (can anybody point me to a good thread to swot up on this?) - and while I usually find some significance or resonance in the primary hex and the changing lines text, I often don't find the secondary hex says much to me.


I'm aware that I might still get knocked back (from L, not the yi), which is really why I revised the question from "should I" to "what happens if". Because I guess it's very possible that it'll be useful for me to get turned down with certainty, for whatever reason (old opportunities disappear, new ones appear...).

So I guess my question to you all is really about how I phrased my question has affected the outcome, the secondary hexs. Or just how to read the secondary hex properly? Hmm! Not sure actually.

Anyway, sorry, what a ramble! Any ideas or input or thoughts greatly appreciated - I read a few messages about hex pairs (eg. 21-22) a while back, but it seemed a bit advanced for me.

cheers!
sandy

Hello Sandy,

What is the relationship between the primary and secondary hexagram?
Tough question! I think there are many possible answers:
(1) now - future (the secondary hexagram shows future developments, the primary hexagram shows
what is now)
(2) figure - background (the primary hexagram appears against the background of the secondary hexagram; this implies among other things that the secondary hexagram represents a wider or more detached viewpoint. Or that the secondary hexagram shows the broader context)
(3) surface - depth (the secondary hexagram looks deeper into the situation)
(4) effect - cause (cause on a subtle level. this doesn't contradict (1). although the cause precedes the effect you may not see or recognize it on the gross level until after the effect)
(5) path - goal (the secondary hexagram gives an image of our goal and helps us to clarify what
we want, the primary hexagram shows the path, the way, the means)
(6) answer - question (the secondary hexagram reflects what we have asked the oracle and may help us to understand our question: what are we really asking?)

(this is not the end of my list, but I will stop here ..)

All these possibilities are somehow related.
For example, (3) is related to (1) because what is in the deep tends to surface in the future.

Hope this helps. I would like to give one simple straightforward answer, but, well, the world of the I Ching is not like that ..


A few thoughts on your hexagrams:

21 shows effort, a tendency to force things, resistance and possible frustration.
1 is a lot of power but no receptivity.

22 seems to be more open and relaxed.
In my mind I see a picture of you two resting, talking and drinking wine while the sun sinks beneath the mountain ..
So, perhaps the oracle suggests that there is a gentle way, that there is no need to force things.

Martin

Martin, thank you for that terrific account of the relationships of first and second hexagrams. Does this all come from your own experience, or is there a book somewhere with that good a description? If you have more to say, please, please go on...

Hilary, thank you for your terrific website!
Yes, it's experience, the I Ching is a long time friend. I will probably never understand her/him completely but there is an old saying: "Not everybody understands, but everybody can try to understand".
So, lets try!

All the best,

Martin

Sandy,

I don't think it really matters whether you ask a yes no question or another way -- the answers will be similar if not the same. That's my experience. That's why you got the same primary hex twice. You're right about the interpretation. I think you'll bite through the obstacle of her resistance (women can be strange at times, no? They seem to want you and then they act otherwise!) and you'll court her and you'll watch the sunset together like Martin says. Hex 22 is among other things about beauty and courtship.

Best for your Quest

Anita

Hallo again, thanks for the lucid and useful explanation Martin, definitely adding clarity here (points at head). It's like you say about never fully understanding: Every new thing I learn just indicates how much I've yet to learn! Well it'd be boring otherwise, eh.

Am I talking about women or the I Ching?

Cheers Anita, I try to stay away from yes/no questions because I don't really know exactly what question the result is an answer to - given that there's no explicit "yes" or "no" hex, I know the result can't possibly be an answer to a yes or no question. Well, not a straightforward one anyway (but I suppose, if there's one thing I've learnt from thinking with the I Ching is that things are almost never straightforward). My initial question "should I?" required a judgement of the value of an action, and I'm a bit uncomfortable with that. Because I don't know who or what is doing the judging. Whereas the second question "what will happen if?" simply asks for a description. Of course, as you point out, the result was the same for both of them, so, from the oracles point of view, the questions were pretty much the same. Which I knew, but I wasn't expecting the oracle to second-guess me and answer the question I was really thinking about

I reckon this is a lesson for me to focus less on the technical aspects and more on the meaning of the hexagrams. And probably to have a bit more trust.

Thank you everyone! I shall try not to push my luck with her too far


cheers!
sandy

Sandy - It may help to think of it this way:

The primary is the paint. The secondary is the canvas.

Try it that way and see if it doesn't begin to make more sense to you.

Anita, forgive me for disagreeing, I think we went through this already, but 22 is NOT about courtship. Beauty, yes, but for courtship we have 53.

Dear Sandy,
Hi! I'm beginning to do away with using questions altogether! If I was asking about L, I might have done this: had a photo or something of L to help me concentrate on her and a piece a paper between me and the photo. And then I'd just consult while thinking of L, writing the results in front of me. The hexagram that appears shows the pattern of Tao existing between us at that moment and the lines show the 'paths' (of the tao) and their direction.
What news with L?....

Hi Pedro, Anita, and everyone.

Yeah, we have been through this before, and sorry to say, one aspect of 22 is courtship. However, we really need to look at the lines here. If 22 is changing to 21 then line 3 and 4 are involved. Without going into detail, I think that the obvious indication here is that this is a somewhat dangerous situation. This might be different in other parts of the world, but here we have laws that can be transgressed by showing too much interest in a woman who is not responding. I am not saying this relationship is not possible, I am saying that one should be very careful and cautious in their approach. I really didn't want to get into this, but I think we need to understand, hexagrams are not about just one thing. They can mean anything in the right circumstances. And any hexagram that has a son as one trigram and a daughter as the other, lends itself more to the possibility of courtship. In both 21 and 22 we have the middle daughter with a son, in 22 it is the youngest son, in 21 it is the eldest. Also, if the question is about courtship, then any hexagram we receive relates to that.

Gene

In the Wilhelm Baynes commentary on hexagram 22 we have an interesting concept. The yin lines create form, the yang create content. Between these two extremes we have a balance. As the commentary says, "...shows a harmonious equalization of movement giving no excess to energies to one side or the other." But it goes farther, and we are told that the yang principle is love, and justice the dark principle. (One here is reminded of the Kabbalistic tree of life, in which one side of the tree relates to justice, and the other side to mercy.) The commentary says, "love is the content, and justice is the form." All the lines in this hexagram have a corrolary, yin with yang. The first yang relates to the fourth yin. The yang line gets out of the carriage and walks, the yin line sees him as a winged horse. The second and third line relate. and so do the fifth and sixth. all the lines have a proper counterpart yin with yang. Now, since yin and yang relate in this way, in this hexagram, we have a touch of this in hexagram 21 also. And, since one is the inverse of the other, we have, on a higher level, one hexagram relating to justice, and the other to love. In hexagram 21 the light is clear, therefore it is okay to set clearly defined penalties for transgressions. In hexagram 22 we have a lesser light, therefore justice needs further delineation before a verdict can be reached. So instead of justice in 22 we have love. 21 is the form, 22 is the content, although, on a lesser level, we have both in both. With 22, courtship and relationships can often be combined with illusion or lack of foresight. Love is blind. In a sense, so is justice. That is why courtship needs to be handled with care and caution in hexagram 22. In line 3 we see that we are under the influence of wine, (delusion).

Gene

Hello All:

Although the hexagrams obtained by Sandy were both 21, first changing to 1 and on the second question changing to 22 (not 22 changing to 21 which would be something completely different) I tend to agree with Gene regarding that hexagrams can mean a miriad of things depending on the question and the circumstances around the querent at the moment of casting.

I also agree that in certain countries, like ours, the US, a whole cultural taboo has been built around the matter of approaching the opposite sex (or even the same sex, for that matter). The whole concept of courtship has been appropriated by litigation lawyers and case precedents seem to dominate the future. I should add further comments along actual cultural lines but is not the topic of this thread.

Having said all that, I also think that Hex 21 means to "overcome obstacles" and IMHO is an auspicious answer on both counts. If approached in a correct manner, I mean.

In my personal case, Hex 21 has a very special meaning for me and it has for many years, to the point that I had the name of the Hexagram (Shi Ho) painted by a Chinese calligrapher. The painting has been on my bedroom wall ever since. Is one of the first things I see in the morning (besides my wife and my German Shepperd, that is... ) It gives me courage to start the new day. It is my courage talisman, for existing and new enterprises. There is a long story behind all this but is not the topic.

Sandy, IMHO, on the topic of Huang and reading only certain changing lines I do not agree. Although I have a lot of respect for his translation, I cannot see the reason or the point for oversimplifying readings by reading only one of a number of changing lines. Why? Just to weed out possible contradictory lines? Not me. I take and I try to digest whatever the Yi throws at me, even if I have to spend weeks mulling over the possible contradictions. I use yarrow for my readings and by sheer probabilities, when you get a changing line the Yi means it for you to read it, be it one line or six. Again, IMHO, you should heed all the lines.

Everybody has their own approach to readings. That's just mine, of course.

I mainly use the Wilhelm/Baynes translation, but I am also a compulsive buyer of Yi related books and love to read different translations when something seems obscure with W/B. It gives me focus and I end up "averaging" translations. On this regard, I was recently very lucky to find a First Edition of "Yi Jing", a translation by Master Wu Jing-Nuan. This edition is very hard to find in good condition. I received the book just a couple of days ago and is a beautiful translation. One of the great things about Master Wu's translation is that it has all the Chinese characters on top of the English transliterations. As a little sharing gift, here is his translation for Hex 21 (for the first time question):

Shi He: A sacrificial offering. Advantage to use litigation.

6-2: Bite through the flesh to cut off the nose. No error.

6-3: Bite (into) dried meat and flesh, and encounters poison. Small regrets. No error.

6-5: Bites (into) dried flesh, receives yellow gold. The adivination: Danger. No error.

And here is part of the comment by Master Wu on this Hexagram:

quote
-----

Today this stark hexagram cautions against criminal activity. It also offers the instruction that biting through problems, like biting through dried meat, can be difficult but rewarding.
The gua ci (Judgment), "She He: A sacrificial offering. Advantage to use litigation."
This call for litigation if very unusual, but in keeping with the destructive and confrontational elements of Shi He, Yu (some Chinese characters go here), "litigation," is a picture of two dogs who bark at each other - a Chinese commentary on law suits and those who engage in them.

...

6-2 The second line, "Bite through the flesh to cut off the nose. No error."
The nose is symbolic of one's being. This is a call for a reexamination of one's self.
6-3 The third line, "Bites (into) dried meat and flesh, and encounters poison. Small regrets. No error."
Caution, and the purging of poisons in a timely manner, will cause only minor problems.
6-5 The fifth line, "Bites (into) dried flesh, receives yellow gold. The divination: danger. No error."
Caution is advised, specially after material gain.

unquote
-------

There you have it. The way I see it, your approach to this potential relationship is full of pitfalls and warning signs. However, if is really that important to you, I also see the Yi giving you the tools to approach this person appropriately. Actually is telling you what NOT to do.

(I should add that Master Wu died just this past December. If anyone is interested in buying current editions of his Yi Jing, you could find it at http://www.wushealingart.com/books.htm)

Cheers,

Luis

Gene, not trying to be stuborn, but let me try to better explain what I mean. As I said I dont see courtship in 22's primary meaning, but of course, beauty attracts courtship, so indeed courtship can be a natural consequence of 22. I know Wilhelm takes it more in that direction, but thats his view, and we know how he could somewhat shape the original meanings to suit his own belifs. Still, it is not present in the hexagram's original meaning, you can see from the original name at LiSe's or elsewhere. Its a blossoming plant, or something like that. As LiSe so well puts it, its Qi showing

Thank you, Pedro, and I don't mean to be stubborn at all, either, but if you read the lines, they relate to courtship. It is not just Wilhelm's stuff, it is related to the lines. Wilhelm got his views from the master who taught him. There are many ways to read the I Ching, I do not think Wilhelm was making up his own stuff, it is there.

Gene

Gene,
Courtship is only mentioned in line 4, and even there I dont think it is the line's crucial point.

From Wilhelm: "Grace or simplicity? / A white horse comes as if on wings. / He is not a robber, / He will woo at the right time."

LiSe for instance has it different: "Then energetic, then silver haired, then a white horse soaring up (then a shaggy - or longhaired - white horse). No bandits, marriage."

The last part is:
fei3 kou4 hun1 gou4
not robber marriage marry

So even Wilhelm's "woo" might be his own understanding.

In any case I think it is somewhat of a far leap to take this as the meaning of the whole hexagram

But as you so well put it, there are many ways to read the Yi, so if this is how you see this hexagram, Im sure that given your superior experience with it, there must be some truth to it

Best wishes
pedro

Pedro

I do understand what you are saying, so I am just going to leave this alone after this, but whether courtship is mentioned or not is immaterial, without any commentary of any kind, or any translation of the lines, by the very relationship of the lines to each other, it becomes obvious this is about courtship. Line 1 attaches to line 4, line 2 to line 3, line 5 to line 6. Line one is coming to meet line four. As with electricity, the opposite polls attract and there is by electrical law a movement. All the lines in the lower trigram fear rejection by the 5th line of the hexagram, or in another sense, by their opposite line. The second line fears rejection so he/she adornes himself, herself for the sake of improving the chances of being accepted. The third line is under the spell of wine and is trying to seduce the second and fifth line. The fifth line is the queen, and although the lines of the lower trigram fear rejection because their gifts are small, and they can only adorn themselves so much, the queen still accepts them, or in another version, the lady who is being courted. The sixth line has been accepted and all is well.

Gene

Well, your argument about the lines is convincing, I have never thought of it that way, and I thank you for expanding my views. I had never realised that so much was going on in here, this is starting to resemble Yi's version of "dangerous liasons", the motion picture