First let me thank Hilary for such a wonderful comprehensive site, truly devoted to spirit of the Yijing. Its reassuring to find a place (even if its a single occurence) where this matters are dealt with in a serious manner and with so much devotion (yes, it shows). I do my own readings but if I ever need a professional consultation, yours will be the one I choose
I was going to make this an introduction, but Im not really feeling like it (you can ask whatever you may wish to know about me, I love to talk), so I'll just share some thought I have on the Yi (there would be many others I would like to address, but these were the 1st to come to mind).
Let me state clearly that Im no expert on the I Ching. Ive been using it for about 12 years, and I read a lot about it, but although I believe I came to some sort of understandment of its inner works, I could never say that I really grasp it, cause like so many other fascinating subjects, the more you explore it, the more you realise how little you know about it...

WHAT IS IT
Primarly I think the I Ching is a manual to how one should conduct his life in the myriad of situations that can occur. After years of questioning, you become able to know beforehand what the Yi would advise in any given situation, and so it becomes a role model for us to follow. The way to deal with human doubts is pointed out in the answers, and should more people become aquainted with this system, a lot of the world's problems would simply vanish. For instance, take hex#5, the wait, is there any wiser advice that to wait calmly, in good humour, nurturing yourself, whatever youre waiting for? If you have to wait, it should be an act of faith that things will come, and not a frantic walking around in circles that will only disperse the goods the universe had already coming your way. So it is a code of conduct, not really a set of moral rules, but a way to act that is in harmony with the hidden forces of the universe, and we should all realise that this harmony is what assures (or in the lack of it, prevents) us from fullfilling our desires. So follow the Yi's advice and you should live in harmony with the Tao.
But I also think of it as a way to "talk" to the principles ruling the universe, God if you wish. I get many fruitful dialogues that way, and when I question the Yi I address god, the Tao, the universal forces or whatever you wanna call it.
Finally, it is also a way of bringing your hidden mental patterns to the open, a way to know what state your inner mind is into, which given the fact that we already know all the answers, becomes a way to find the truth (in this sense it resembles the tarot).

RULES
In my experience there is only one rule that you must comply: You must really WANT an answer... This rules out all the trivia, although often first time questioners, asking "will I win the lotto", also get a valid answer (like #53 "money wont come easy, go work for it").
There is another rule, a tacit one, you have to respect the oracle, and believe in it as the most wise of all books. That has never been a trouble for me, Ive always understood it as a link to the higher powers, but in any case, this is covered by rule #1, cause if you really want (or NEED) an answer, youre bound to show respect and faith. Another tacit rule, that you have to focus on the question, is also covered by rule #1 (you'll probabbly have trouble NOT concentrating on the question, in this case).
Besides from this simple #1 rule, Ive basically disregarded all others, like lighting incense, putting a white cloth underneath, using such and such coins, whatever. Ive consulted the Yi in less than perfect surroundings, using different sized coins, etc, and yet it never failed to give me valuable answers. Why? because I needed them...
This is why I dont give much credit to this or that method being "better" or "worse". Ive always used coins, the odds are slightly different, so what? Odds are just probabilities, and I expect any person familiar with the Yi to have long past realised that it does not follow statistics, not in the sense a dice would. There is plenty of probabilistic room for the Yi to answer the intended answer, whatever method you're using. So forget about it, and just use the method you feel right. The Yi will know what and how to answer.

WHAT IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE ANSWER?
I see many people have trouble understanding a single hexagram in reply to an important question. In this case, you can ask for clarification to the Yi itself, instead of figuring out the whole answer from this single symbol. Im not saying that you should disregard the 1st answer, or that we should ask again if we didnt like what we got. All answers are valid, but if after reading the first you still have doubts, by all means cast another hexagram and ask for the details you missed... I have many "dialogs" with the Yi this way. I can ask "how to ... whatever". The Yi says "X". Then I can ask, "...but how should I X?", to which he would reply "Y" and so forth. Bottom line, it is not forbidden to ask repeatedly, provided rule #1 is maintained.
In any case the Yi itself will put an end to it if youre just asking meaninglessly. This most often happens when I get hex#4 either as first or second hexagram, but it can simply say something totally out of context. In either case, just go meditate on what you have so far, the answer is probbably already there...
Anyway, Ive had instances when I repeated the same question several times (and I mean dozens), over a period of time, and even then I get valid answers... Sometimes the nature of the matters evolves over time so you can ask to see how its going, but even if you repeat the same question several times in a row, it still gives good answers. So instead of a banalization of the oracle, I think repeating questions can unveil several meanings of the same answer. This is how I found some interrelations between hexagrams, cause they would come up repeatedly, or in pairs, or one evolving into the other, but in any case this repetition showing a correlation that is everything but random.

MULTIPLE MOVING LINES
First I think that all the lines are relevant. But they can have two purposes: sometimes its like the "juice" of the answer is in the lines, but some other times they are moving just to point to the related hexagram, and their significance cannot be taken too seriously.
I can see how most of the single lines are in some way related to the resulting hexagram, and I imagine that was one of the ways the Duke of Chou came up with them, but when there is more than one line moving, its amazing how it still makes sense, given the complexity of the possible combinations. But the truth is it does.
Bottom line, dont be too attached to confliting lines, and just use the "sharpening of the mind" Confucius talked about.
(Btw, anyone using the MPML method? I tryed it a couple of times and it seems to work, but I havent seen it mentioned anywhere else than on the paged linked here on clarity).

HOW DOES IT WORK
Well, basically I dont know, noone does, but I have my theory: I think it is quantum physics If you're familiar with quantum mechanics (not that I really am) or buddhism, you will see they basically say the same, which is, the whole universe is nothingness (you can get just a glimpse of that by considering that atoms are small scale solar systems, and most of the space they occupy is empty space - so 99.999% of what we see, is really empty space). Anyway, scientists are coming to the same conclusion Buddha taught 2500 years ago, that everything is devoided of substance, and that it is the mind that turns this nothingness into "the miryad of all things". The subatomic particles seem to need an observer thrown into the equation to really explain their behaviour (although no scientist will admit that), so you cant just know where it is without looking, and when you do you've messed with its position so its no longer there (forgive the plain approach, but its more or less like this).
What has this to do with the Yi? well, I believe this influence of the mind over matter is most evident in the so called random processes (there is actually a department from a US university - cant remember which but I'll check if anyone's interested - concerned with investigating this interaction, and their first results seem to offer indication of a real tangible influence). So if mind affects random processes, in a way not yet clear, it may be that the Yi answers are indeed generated from our mind, as if our inner self would make the coins land in a particular arrangement. Its all very schroedinger's cat, but the more I think of it the more I intuitively believe that this is the key. In this sense, you could have all sorts of random processes determining the future (and thats why all divination tools "work"), but the Yi happens to be a sistematic approach, where you have a comprehensive model of the universe built on top of this randomness, and thats why its answers are more valid than just merely a flip of a coin. I believe you could construct other models, based on random events, but then you would need thousands of years of empyrical work, to determine which of the random events would lead to each particular situation. That must have been the way it was invented, lets say a particular mental frame has a tendency to influence a random event in a particular way, then over the years, people come to realise that whenever they were feeling "that" way, the coins would land on "that" pattern, and so it was constructed... am I making any sense?

TAOIST ALCHEMY
To end this overlengthy introduction, I would like to ask your opinion on the hidden depth of the Yi, particularly its esoteric uses. I have a book called li tao ch'un ("school of complete reality") which seems to show a lot of interrelations between the Yi and chinese taoist arts. According to this view, we're in between a dipole, constituted by heaven on one side, and earth on the other. Meditation and spiritual development come from being in accordance with these two poles. From earth you have to be calm. From heaven you have to be open. So this calmness and openness are the start of the understandment ("let all your actions start from calm, and be filled with complete openness"). This makes A LOT of sense to me, and has recently became one of my main interests. This is all too much to go into here, but let me just mention some topics. One of the steps is to "gather vitality", when the body is calm, the mind is open, you have to let vitality emerge and then gather it. The book says this process is explained by meditating on hexagram #24, which makes a lot of sense, cause thats where the first line appears, like when youre meditating and suddenly you FEEL IT (and usually loose it immediately after, because of the excitment). Its this glimpse of the real thing that I thing hex.#24 represents. LiSe names this hex. "return to your tao" and I think she's got the point. Another example comes from the taoist water-course way, which is basically the rule by which we should flow like the water, not restling with but letting oneself go with the flow. But then this is preciselly the message of hexagram#29, water. So I begin to realise that there is also a lot of esoteric meaning in the Yi, that we cannot grasp just from the translations.
On a side note, I would enormously appreciate whatever clues anyone can give to further my study of this matters, either through books (anyone knows of a translation of the li tao ch'un with commentaries? or something similar?), online articles or just plain old conversation.


Well, thanks for bearing with me this far. Hope to have many more conversations with you all regarding this matters, in particular I would like to go into depth with some particular hexagrams that are of particular interest to me. But thats for another occasion...
All the best to you all, cheers
Pedro

Hi Pedro,

You certainly seem to have a good grasp on the Ching and related thinking/living. I'm not familiar with tao ch'un but have enjoyed what you've had to say about it and would be interested in hearing more.

Welcome!
Candid

Hello Pedro, and welcome, and wow. If people are a little slow to respond to these random thoughts of yours, it's probably because we're a tad daunted. But also very glad to have you

Re: What is it - yes... but I'm not sure how reliably we can use this without divining first to discover the nature of the time, at least before enlightenment. Yi's advice tends to be completely different in different hexagrams: waiting is good, so is seizing the day (35); setting out to put things right might be a good idea, or it might land you in a hole; danger might be a reason to turn back, or something you have to confront. And so on. I know I'm stating the very obvious indeed - in England we call it 'teaching grandmother to suck eggs'... There are certainly moments in life that remind me of particular hexagrams, but how likely am I to have got the right one?? Having said that, the other day I had occasion to wonder 'What would I receive if I divined now?' - and hexagram 24 entered my mind at once. Returning was absolutely the right thing to do.

100% in agreement with everything you say about 'rules'. Maybe wanting to hear the truth rather than just wanting or needing an answer. You know what I mean!
I think your rule #1 would also resolve all the issues of repeated questioning, if we could just apply it with honesty.

Quantum physics? Erk. Isn't it the case, though, that the facts about our particle or the unfortunate cat don't need a conscious observer to be resolved, but only a measuring device? But you should be talking to someone else about this - Leonard?

I don't know anything about taoist alchemy, though I do agree that there are levels of understanding that do not come from interpretation. I think that when Karcher's Total I Ching, Myths for Change comes out, you will find a lot of food for thought and more-than-thought in it.

I'm looking forward very much to your indepth thoughts on some hexagrams! Maybe on a new thread, do you think?

Thanks for your words, I was a bit disapointed this morning for not having any answers, and I thought I had exceeded myself, but I shouldnt be so impatient - I'll go read hexagram #5 again, it seems I still havent grasped its message
Anyway, Im just using the I Ching for 12 years or so, and I still have a lot to learn, but I agree with one anonymous message, from someone with 30 years experience, that most of the meaning you get by experience, from remembering past answers to specific questions of yours. In that sense I feel I know some hexagrams very well, cause they keep on popping out, and more than the text itself they become an image in one's mind.
Regarding the quantum theory, I realise now, by reading some more of the old posts, that there is a lot of people thinking the same, so maybe theres some truth to it (Im sorry I cant argue with the measuring device vv an observer cause I have no idea how these devices are). But in the end, and that goes to the skeptics as well, all it matters is that we are happy with it. If we're making the meaning ourselves or not, is irrelevant, provided it works and it gives us mee mortals some help in organizing our lives (I certainly couldnt let go of it, with so many haunting questions of my one). Its like they say of astrology: either you believe in it, or you dont know it.
Anyway, Im enjoying this forum a lot, and hope to be able to contribute some of my thoughts, I just cant figure how to find recent remarks, do they always come last? what if I restart an old thread? (have been trying to refrain, cause on most of them I read, I'd like to throw my 2 cents)
As for my "indepth thoughts", please dont expect more of it than another persons understanding of them. I enjoy reading peoples comments on the hexagrams, cause its always mind openning to see what sense others make of it, but I admit sometimes I disagree, or perhaps I just dont see the whole picture, and have created a symbol of my own that is only partially correct. Some hexagrams still make me a bit confused, and I have trouble understanding the answers when there arent some moving lines that explain the detail. For instance, hexagram#55 is good or bad? its name sugests abundance, but if you read further you see that its abundance of sad occasions... so which is it? The text also says not to be sad, but to be like the sun at noon, so it seems like a conforting hexagram, more than a state of fullfillment. Incidentally, I read on some taoist page, that it represents the taoist fire practices, by which the sage shouldnt keep the divine inspiration to himself, but act as a bridge between the heavens and the people, so he would be like the sun at noon, lighting all beings, good or bad in equanimity.
Anyway, its good to be here, and be sure I'll keep writing and replying (and yes I'll start some new threads with some specific hexagrams). I'll start with #59 (which for me is related to #45 on one side, and #42 on another), but I would appreciate help on some others, like #51 I just got when asking of someone's feelings about me, and that never seems to make the whole sense to me, and also #16, which also puzzles me a little
Well, gotta go now, I look forward to discuss these matters with you all. Cheers

Enjoyed your mail a lot, but simply had no time to reply.
Maybe tomorrow,
LiSe

Sometimes it takes new eyes to see the obvious. Pedro, Hilary's new design is excellent in many ways, but I believe you've seen something which can be improved upon. Hilary, it IS difficult to pick up an early thread and resurrect it. If that's Pedro's meaning, I have to agree. Love ya anyway.

Pedro, I feel a sense of inner relief that you're here. Active readers seem few here. I'm greatly interested in your interpretations on different hexagrams. As for the 30 years experience thing, I agree that it provides something of a practical and historical tracking. But it can also lead to a static view of things. I've found this forum to be Extremely helpful in keeping my mind limber and able to receive. My heart is not unaffected by those I've come to know here.

Thanks for contributing.
Candid

About the design, I was merely confuse at 1st as to which were the ongoing threads, but I see theyre at the bottom, now. I think the design is fine!
Love you all

Hi Pedro Ola.

When I first saw your posting I wrote an answer immediately. After finish
and as usual I delete everything and didn't post anything.
I always do this because I feel shy. I am a huge fan of Clarity and of
Hilary (my mentor) of LiSe, Candid, Leonard, Anita, Angel, and Gene just to
mention some. I visit Clarity's site everyday and enjoy myself reading the
posts. I Ching is very knew for me just a couple of months old... I always
have that feeling this people know a lot and what can I tell them....I know
nothing! Other than that, I am Portuguese; English is not my mother language
so I am afraid of not expressing myself well and of writing huge
mistakes....
(Sometimes one needs a dictionary when reading the posts)!
Hilary scolds me a couple of times already and told me to "not to be
silly!", so here I am!

Pedro I loved your thoughts but I have nothing to share or teach you only to
learn from you and the others here. But I noticed your e-mail is from
Portugal and I am currently leaving in Macau and looking everywhere for a
Portuguese translation of Steven Karcher's "How to I Ching". Can you help?
Just tell me where to buy and daddy will buy for me.

Well ..I will not delete this one!

Obrigada (Thank You)

Elisabete

My God I don't know where that word came from...posting and posts? Sounds bad now that I am reading it....anyway...its done! Message or mail sounds better...
Sooooo embarrassing!!!!!!!I think I am nervous!
I know Hilary..."don't be silly Elisabete"...

Bravo Elisabete! Please don't feel as though you have little to contribute or be concerned about your English. I understood you perfectly. I assure you that your English is far better than my Portuguese! That some have more experience with I Ching doesn't matter. Your views are a valid as anyone else?s here, regardless of experience. I'm gad you didn't delete your post this time.

Oops on misunderstanding Pedro's comment on Hilary's design. But, I do still think its difficult to rebuild momentum on a past thread again due to the fact that it appears so high on the topic list that most, including myself, would likely not notice it. I'm usually online for only short bursts and zoom right to the bottom to read the most recent posts. Hope I've not been offensive to our hostess. I know, "don't be silly Candid!"

I don't check the website for new posts, but have them e-mailed to me (so the start of my day at work normally sees me going through a bunch of clarity discussions - especially after the weekend). This means as soon as it's posted I've got it, and don't have to trawl through the topics looking at latest posting dates.

First, Elisabete, hello! Thank you for not deleting this one! And many thanks (and lots of admiration) to everyone who takes the additional trouble of posting here in what is a foreign language to them.

There are some things I can and will do to improve things here, like creating a beginners' area and maybe a general chat one, too. There are also things I can't do due to the limitations of the software, and putting most recently posted-to threads at the top of the contents page is unfortunately one of them.

To compensate, as well as editing your profile (see link on the left) to get every new message sent to you, you can use the 'new messages' search.

Now let's get back to Pedro's immeasurably more interesting subjects for discussion! (Sorry, Pedro.)

I access from different work stations and email addresses, but will try having them sent to my home machine as suggested. My apologies, Hilary. Yes, let us keep on topic.

Elisabete - Welcome! I applaud your courage to "post".

Pedro - Welcome and hello. I loved your post and have a few links you might find interesting to explore regarding taoist internal alchemy. The topic is being discussed now a bit at another email list run by Mary Halpin. If you do a google search for "midaughter and I-Ching" I bet you will find her web page. Also, the link to join the mailing list is:

http://www.onelist.com/community/Midaughter

If you have been consulting yi for 12 years you might fit right in over there. Regarding taoist internal alchemy in particular, Michael Winn is a great teacher on the topic, and many articles can be found at his web site:

http://www.healingtaousa.com

He can explain this topic very well, so I will not get into it much here. I also find yi essentially esoteric. As far as one wants to take it, the layers just keep peeling, or to put it another way, just how many licks does it take to get to the center of that tootsie pop?

If you do not own Hua-Ching Ni's translation and commentary to the I-Ching, then I would highly recommend that as well. The title is "I Ching, The Book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth". He is a Taoist, so his translation speaks directly to your question in many profound ways.

Recently, I threw hex 38. It had been confusing me in relation to my question, but later that day became a bit more clear while discussing the heart sutra at a buddhist center where I am studying. From Wilhelm's translation: "In general, opposition appears as an obstruction, but when it represents polarity within a comprehensive whole, it has also its useful functions. The oppositions of heaven and hearth, spirit and nature, man and woman, when reconciled, bring about the creation and reproduction of life. In the world of visible things, the princicple of opposites makes possible the differentiation by categories through which order is brought into the world." The heart sutra is essentially buddha's teaching on emptiness, describing how things "really" are versus how they appear to be. At any rate, an intersting topic to ponder. While struggling to understand how things can "appear" one way yet exist in an entirely different way, hex 38 came to mind, and the quote above began to take on completley new meaning. Now, this is all a very personal interpretation, not to imply anything for anybody else's interpreation or understanding of hex 38 or yi in general. I mention it only because I do believe yi essentially esoteric and its implications ultimately very deep, in response to Pedro's question. So, best of luck to you, and again welcome! Peace - Brian

When someone knows something and there is nobody around, or nobody who is interested, he will keep his knowledge to himself. But as soon as another is eager to know, he will be inspired to pass on his wisdom.
I think this is the basic meaning of hex.4. Most people see hex.4 only as a slap on the wrist for asking too often, but they underestimate 4.
For knowledge to be passed on, there has to be someone ignorant. Someone who is wise enough to know he does not know. So it is not absolutely clear who is the sage and who is the ignorant in hex.4. Laozi himself said: they are all bright, bright, I alone am dumb, dumb.
Elisabete, we are happy there are people like you. And we are also happy that we all are like you. Everybody knows something and for everybody there is a huge amount he does not know. So let?s all be ignorant and a little bit wise, and inspire each other to talk.
LiSe

Whoa, you guys are fast to reply!! I had to pagedown a lot
And hi Elisabete, Im glad you didnt delete your message this time Im portuguese as well, was thinking I was being the first portuguese soul to find this waters, but it seems you beat me by a long shot Anyway, next time you feel shy or uncertain of yourself, just ask the I Ching for advise. Thats what its there for! Im saying this because I know what he would say. You see most of the times the limitations we think have are merely those we inflict upon ourselves, and usually not justified. See, Im shy too , I just fake it well... But a kind book like the Yi cannot help but to tell you the truth, which is that you are a wonderful person, like everyone else, and you should stand for what you deserve in every aspect of life. Thats what god intends us to...
ps: youre welcome to write me directly, if you like, so we can talk in portuguese

David: thank you so much for your tips, Im seeing a huge list of articles at healing tao and Im grinning ear to ear .
I also subbed to the list, so maybe we'll see around (havent had time to check the archives yet, but I'll try and track that discussion you mention). You've been a great help, thanks

Candid, Hilary, LiSe, everybody: thank you so much for your warm welcomes, I see this is a very supportive group and its great to be here. Love you all already

Gotta pretend to do some work now seeya

God Morning dear friends.
Thank you all for the support. God Bless you.

I also have all new posts e-mailed to me. But I really enjoy going to the website! I?m addicted to Clarity!
I check it first thing in the morning and weekends at home!
And let me tell you that every time, I read something knew!

Pedro I also asked Hilary?s opinion on some versions I found translated in Portuguese, and as you she didn?t think they are worth buying. I am looking for a Portuguese translation not Portuguese Brazilian.

I order already Stephen Karcher?s ?How to I Ching? English version.

I am here to stay!!!!