Clarity,
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C
candid
Guest
31 in Wilhelm says: ?To take a maiden to wife brings good fortune.? I?d be interested in hearing how others interpret this phrase.
...life can be translucent
C
candid
Guest
Anita, what if someone is already happily married? What might it mean to them?
Do you see a difference in the maiden of 54 or 44, and that of 31? If so, what?
Do you see a symbolic metaphor or is the maiden in Yi always literal?
Do you see a difference in the maiden of 54 or 44, and that of 31? If so, what?
Do you see a symbolic metaphor or is the maiden in Yi always literal?
Candid, of course! I should have thought of it non-literally too. 31 speaks directly to me because I'm not happily married yet. And this maiden certainly seems in a better position than the one in 54 -- who must stay in the shade till it's time or wait to get married. And 44 -- well, that is the forceful, sexy one and whether she's marriage material or not depends on the line. Although I don't think 44 is to do with marriage. The other hex that deals with marriage is 53 and I think to some extent 22.
Yes, the Yi may mean something else too besides taking a wife. It may mean adopting an idea or a way -- depends on the context of the question.
Best for your Quest
Anita
Yes, the Yi may mean something else too besides taking a wife. It may mean adopting an idea or a way -- depends on the context of the question.
Best for your Quest
Anita
I think it means theres an influence or an attraction and it brings good fortune to engage with it, to follow your desire. But this could be any kind of attraction - ie you may feel drawn to a certain kind of work - the counsel is then, marry it, engage with it, let it influence you.
I'm off for a bit, moving home and still struggling with bad back.
I'm off for a bit, moving home and still struggling with bad back.
I dont think the references to marrying maidens are to be taken too literally. Sure, its one of the meanings, but I think there are a lot of relationships that we engage on that are not simply a girl-meets-boy thing, and may not even be relationships to someone else.
Anyway, I think its important noticing that the influence of 31 is not a deliberate intention, as in trying to control others feelings or thoughts, but the involuntary influence one exerts by being open and receptive (wilhelm mentions that only a mountain with a flat top can contain a lake). People come to the one who remains open to others, that is the superior persons way of letting people come to him.
I dont think 31 deals with marriage (yet), but mearly with the attraction of the sexes, the courtship. You still have to go through all the formalities (53) before you actually get married (54).
I dont see marriage in 44 either, I think its just sex.
Anyway, I think its important noticing that the influence of 31 is not a deliberate intention, as in trying to control others feelings or thoughts, but the involuntary influence one exerts by being open and receptive (wilhelm mentions that only a mountain with a flat top can contain a lake). People come to the one who remains open to others, that is the superior persons way of letting people come to him.
I dont think 31 deals with marriage (yet), but mearly with the attraction of the sexes, the courtship. You still have to go through all the formalities (53) before you actually get married (54).
I dont see marriage in 44 either, I think its just sex.
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In 54 the character is return, or put in somebody?s charge, come together, take refuge. It is the maiden herself who ?returns? to her future home (or probably is being returned).
In 31 and 44 there is a very different character. It has nothing to do with marriage, it is a hand and an ear: take, get, fetch, to grab by the ear.
My guess is, that in 31 feelings are involved, and then one can ?grasp? the woman, in 44 it is about the power of woman, and this should not be grabbed.
In 3.2, 3.4, 22.4 and 38.6 there is hungou, two characters. The first one, hun, marry, is woman and faint (swoon, dark, confused), the second one, gou, wed, is woman and intertwine. In modern Chinese they are one word together. In the ancient Chinese of the Yi were no double words like this yet, as far as I know. But as two separate words it makes sense too, like R+K translate: matrimonial allying.
LiSe
In 31 and 44 there is a very different character. It has nothing to do with marriage, it is a hand and an ear: take, get, fetch, to grab by the ear.
My guess is, that in 31 feelings are involved, and then one can ?grasp? the woman, in 44 it is about the power of woman, and this should not be grabbed.
In 3.2, 3.4, 22.4 and 38.6 there is hungou, two characters. The first one, hun, marry, is woman and faint (swoon, dark, confused), the second one, gou, wed, is woman and intertwine. In modern Chinese they are one word together. In the ancient Chinese of the Yi were no double words like this yet, as far as I know. But as two separate words it makes sense too, like R+K translate: matrimonial allying.
LiSe
C
candid
Guest
Thanks all for your responses.
I lean toward Louise's definition. There are healthy and unhealthy attractions. In the case of 31, its a favorable attraction. (Louise, hope your back feels better soon and your trip is a safe one.)
I also identify with LiSe's idea that feelings represent the maiden. As with attractions, some feelings are favorable to bond with (marry or court) while others lead only to humiliation and disappointment. Those I see as being illusionary feelings and attractions.
I appreciate Pedro?s point that 31?s influence isn?t something deliberate or intentional.
The order of daughters also seems to matter, as does the order of sons. Wind, the eldest daughter is more stable and experienced than is that of Lake, the youngest daughter. In 44, however, Wind approaches not one of her peers (brothers) but the Father, and so it is an inappropriate relationship where she presumes equality. In 31, it is Lake the youngest daughter who is wooed by the Mountain, the youngest son - a peer. In 17, its Lake who is showed favor and kindness by the elder son, Thunder. 54 shows Lake (youngest daughter) approaching the eldest son, Thunder. A bit presumptuous. In 53, it is the eldest daughter Wind who influences the youngest son. I see the order of the daughters and sons has holding the meaning of these hexagrams.
Thanks again for your input.
Candid
I lean toward Louise's definition. There are healthy and unhealthy attractions. In the case of 31, its a favorable attraction. (Louise, hope your back feels better soon and your trip is a safe one.)
I also identify with LiSe's idea that feelings represent the maiden. As with attractions, some feelings are favorable to bond with (marry or court) while others lead only to humiliation and disappointment. Those I see as being illusionary feelings and attractions.
I appreciate Pedro?s point that 31?s influence isn?t something deliberate or intentional.
The order of daughters also seems to matter, as does the order of sons. Wind, the eldest daughter is more stable and experienced than is that of Lake, the youngest daughter. In 44, however, Wind approaches not one of her peers (brothers) but the Father, and so it is an inappropriate relationship where she presumes equality. In 31, it is Lake the youngest daughter who is wooed by the Mountain, the youngest son - a peer. In 17, its Lake who is showed favor and kindness by the elder son, Thunder. 54 shows Lake (youngest daughter) approaching the eldest son, Thunder. A bit presumptuous. In 53, it is the eldest daughter Wind who influences the youngest son. I see the order of the daughters and sons has holding the meaning of these hexagrams.
Thanks again for your input.
Candid
LiSe, thats clarifying, I just cant understand that last paragraph of yours, what do you mean with "3.2, 3.4, 22.4 and 38.6", is it hex#-dot-line? if so, are you referring to the chinese text when you speak of double characters, or do you mean you have that sort of pictograms in your site for the individual lines as well? And what does the R & K stand for? Im confused
Nice point about the sons and daughters, Candid, your bird's view of the whole plot puts things in perspective. But in the case of 54 I also see it the other way around: the eldest son showing consideration for the youngest daughter, who in turn she follows. I think both interpretations should have their occurence. After all, relationships are always two ways
C
candid
Guest
Ahh, good point, Pedro. But in the case of 54, it doesn't take two, it takes three. Its true that the eldest son shows consideration to the youngest daughter, but there's his first wife to contend with. Therein lies the danger, and the skill of the youngest daughter. If she knows how to fit into the existing relationship, she will be cared for properly. If not, well - hell hath no fury like a first wife supplanted.
heh heh
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3.4 is hex.3 line 4.
And double characters are in the Chinese text of the line. Modern Chinese is full of them. Many words have the same sound, so they add another one for the meaning. If shirt sounds like flower, then they say cloth-shirt and plant-flower. More or less like that.
I want to have the pictograms in my site, but there are 800 different ones in the Yi, so that is a bit too much work. But I am adding bit by bit the most intriguing ones.
I have the omen-terms like good and bad fortune, and several other pictograms.
Doing my best
LiSe
And double characters are in the Chinese text of the line. Modern Chinese is full of them. Many words have the same sound, so they add another one for the meaning. If shirt sounds like flower, then they say cloth-shirt and plant-flower. More or less like that.
I want to have the pictograms in my site, but there are 800 different ones in the Yi, so that is a bit too much work. But I am adding bit by bit the most intriguing ones.
I have the omen-terms like good and bad fortune, and several other pictograms.
Doing my best
LiSe
C
candid
Guest
LiSe - You're best shows! The dimensions you've added to my own understanding of Yi are innumerable!
LiSe, I think you're doing a wonderful job with your site as it is
And thanks for answering my doubts.
Still, when you say 800 pictograms, you mean the chinese text (like you can see in http://www.chinapage.com/classic/iching/ichingtable.html), or the kind of ancient pictograms you have explained at your site for the 64 hexagrams? Forgive my ignorance, but I know very little about the origins of those old pictograms, and I find them fascinating material
Still, when you say 800 pictograms, you mean the chinese text (like you can see in http://www.chinapage.com/classic/iching/ichingtable.html), or the kind of ancient pictograms you have explained at your site for the 64 hexagrams? Forgive my ignorance, but I know very little about the origins of those old pictograms, and I find them fascinating material
C
candid
Guest
Pedro, yes, the mores of that culture included polygamy. But if there's one thing constant in Yi, its the consistency of human nature. And it is human in nature for jealousy to arise between women where one man is concerned. In that time and culture it was seen as ultimate grace for the eldest wife to introduce a young wife or concubine to her husband. That was the order of how it was to be accomplished. If, however, the young daughter took it upon herself to immodestly attract the husband, they BOTH would incur the wrath of the first wife.
In these modern times, there may not be a literal ?other? woman to attach herself to the husband, but the equivalent could be his obsessions with golf, fishing, career, etc. I see these things as modern maidens also.
In the end, it falls to the husband of the house to use wisdom and equanimity to keep his house in order.
In these modern times, there may not be a literal ?other? woman to attach herself to the husband, but the equivalent could be his obsessions with golf, fishing, career, etc. I see these things as modern maidens also.
In the end, it falls to the husband of the house to use wisdom and equanimity to keep his house in order.
Hum... I seem to detect a tone of disaproval when you say "polygamy"
But the Yi itself says it clearly (32.5):
"Giving duration to one's character through perseverance. This is good fortune for a woman, misfortune for a man."
Which in Wilhelm's interpretation means: "A woman should follow a man her whole life long, but a man should at all times hold to what's his duty at the given moment(...)it's altogether right for a woman to hold conservatively to tradition, but a man must always be flexible and adaptable and allow himself to be guided solely by what his duty requires."
So it seems the Yi is a bit of a sexist
or perhaps it was just Wilhelm (think he was looking for excuses to cheat on his wife?)...
PS: before you get the wrong impression form my teasing remarks, let me assure you by no means I endorse Wilhelm's comments. Some are really appaling, like 20.2, for instance, who deserved a translator's note in my edition, just cause Wilhelm somewhat vague words are still very hard to put in another perspective than that of implying some feminine lack of discernement
But the Yi itself says it clearly (32.5):
"Giving duration to one's character through perseverance. This is good fortune for a woman, misfortune for a man."
Which in Wilhelm's interpretation means: "A woman should follow a man her whole life long, but a man should at all times hold to what's his duty at the given moment(...)it's altogether right for a woman to hold conservatively to tradition, but a man must always be flexible and adaptable and allow himself to be guided solely by what his duty requires."
So it seems the Yi is a bit of a sexist
PS: before you get the wrong impression form my teasing remarks, let me assure you by no means I endorse Wilhelm's comments. Some are really appaling, like 20.2, for instance, who deserved a translator's note in my edition, just cause Wilhelm somewhat vague words are still very hard to put in another perspective than that of implying some feminine lack of discernement
C
candid
Guest
Pedro, nope, I have no disapproval of polygamy, nor of any other type of relational paradigm. That includes homosexuality, lesbian love or bi-sexuality. Its not for me to say what others do, unless its either abusive and dangerous or involves children.
I know what you're saying about some of Wilhelm's blatant sexual casting examples. But as you also pointed out, it was a different time. It was a patriarchal society, not a democracy. I don't see that as "incorrect," just not in harmony with our time and culture. While we would tend to see the "sexist" ancient ways as "appalling", I'm sure it worked to meet the demands of their time and civilization.
Today we see several alternative lifestyles emerging. Some of these include polygamy, or variations thereof. The western traditional mores have developed cracks in the skin, which is unhealed by Judeo-Christian values. We are, I believe, in a state of transition, or revolution. This is why we are so "split apart" and un-unified as a people. There are divergent aims for humanity's goals based on different or individual perspectives. Since the current emphasis is on individualism and not collectivism, it makes it difficult, if not impossible for there to be harmony. Each has its strengths and inherent weaknesses, but they don't live well together.
I think this creates a difficult beginning. The way to progress is by being able to both separate and unite.
I know what you're saying about some of Wilhelm's blatant sexual casting examples. But as you also pointed out, it was a different time. It was a patriarchal society, not a democracy. I don't see that as "incorrect," just not in harmony with our time and culture. While we would tend to see the "sexist" ancient ways as "appalling", I'm sure it worked to meet the demands of their time and civilization.
Today we see several alternative lifestyles emerging. Some of these include polygamy, or variations thereof. The western traditional mores have developed cracks in the skin, which is unhealed by Judeo-Christian values. We are, I believe, in a state of transition, or revolution. This is why we are so "split apart" and un-unified as a people. There are divergent aims for humanity's goals based on different or individual perspectives. Since the current emphasis is on individualism and not collectivism, it makes it difficult, if not impossible for there to be harmony. Each has its strengths and inherent weaknesses, but they don't live well together.
I think this creates a difficult beginning. The way to progress is by being able to both separate and unite.
Hi all
Actually Carl Jung's theory of the Anima explains this part of the Maiden to wife extremely well. It is referring to the psychological changes which happen throughout the life of man. His inner partner helps [or hinders]
him on his his inner journey towards individuation
or as the Yi say's"brings him to completion".This new partner can be very useful...providing he[the man] recognises that there is a new entity within his psyche.If he is unconscious of this fact, then then she will play havoc with his life. I am sure we all know of a middle aged man Falling for the new young office secretary or trading his wife in for a new younger model and that is purely a psychological projection from this oh so powerful inner maiden such is the power of this unrecognised, but common place occurance.
As I said in a previous post the authors of the YI
were the original teachers of Jungian psychology
and Jung and Wilhelm created the bridge between East and West. There are amazing parallels between Jung's seminal thoughts and the I Ching.
The reason that a new Maiden is introduced is that the man and his "old anima" relationship has
grown stale and is in a state of Standstill
The psyche will not stand for this stagnation for ever so a new Maiden is introduced. The Yi helps the man to recognise this new state so he is able to sidestep the disasters noted above.
hope this is of some value
Django.
Django.
Actually Carl Jung's theory of the Anima explains this part of the Maiden to wife extremely well. It is referring to the psychological changes which happen throughout the life of man. His inner partner helps [or hinders]
him on his his inner journey towards individuation
or as the Yi say's"brings him to completion".This new partner can be very useful...providing he[the man] recognises that there is a new entity within his psyche.If he is unconscious of this fact, then then she will play havoc with his life. I am sure we all know of a middle aged man Falling for the new young office secretary or trading his wife in for a new younger model and that is purely a psychological projection from this oh so powerful inner maiden such is the power of this unrecognised, but common place occurance.
As I said in a previous post the authors of the YI
were the original teachers of Jungian psychology
and Jung and Wilhelm created the bridge between East and West. There are amazing parallels between Jung's seminal thoughts and the I Ching.
The reason that a new Maiden is introduced is that the man and his "old anima" relationship has
grown stale and is in a state of Standstill
The psyche will not stand for this stagnation for ever so a new Maiden is introduced. The Yi helps the man to recognise this new state so he is able to sidestep the disasters noted above.
hope this is of some value
Django.
Django.
C
candid
Guest
Django - Definitely of value.
It seems your expressed perspective is from a long term association with the maiden. Something which endures in time (32?). The Anima as the lifelong partner of a man's life. To that end, I can see a relationship of endurance.
From other perspectives it can be something more fleeting. A good book can be a maiden. A stream of thought can also be a maiden, as can a rush of emotions.
How would you see these more transient maidens in the bigger scheme of one's Anima role? How do these ?smaller? maidens integrate with the lifelong maiden (Anima)?
Also, how does this inner female manifest differently in a woman than a man, both in terms of the maidens and the Anima?
It seems your expressed perspective is from a long term association with the maiden. Something which endures in time (32?). The Anima as the lifelong partner of a man's life. To that end, I can see a relationship of endurance.
From other perspectives it can be something more fleeting. A good book can be a maiden. A stream of thought can also be a maiden, as can a rush of emotions.
How would you see these more transient maidens in the bigger scheme of one's Anima role? How do these ?smaller? maidens integrate with the lifelong maiden (Anima)?
Also, how does this inner female manifest differently in a woman than a man, both in terms of the maidens and the Anima?
Has anyone noticed Karcher saying for 44 -- embracing the woman is good? That's because he knows like some of us do that Chinese culture of the time of the Yi was very different from today's. Today it is the time of yin rising. The time of yang is over. And one can see this trend across the world.
Best for your Quest
Anita
Best for your Quest
Anita
Hi Candid
Sorry for the delay in getting back to your questions. How do I see these more transient Maidens in the bigger scheme of things? Well as I said above, the Anima's main role seems to be to keep the man awake [psychologically] "she seems to do this by causing tension. I am afraid there is no way to grow without suffering tension.
A psychological "hair" shirt so to speak. If we grow used to this inner Anima, we get comfortable and doze off. Jung maintained that mans greatest passion is not sex,, but laziness hence to give us a shake up the new Maiden is introduced
The ancient Chinese actually acted out the 54th hexagram, whereby a new concubine was introduced by the "chief" wife and introduced to the husbands bed after being instructed by the wife. She [the concubine]was taught not to abuse the natural power inherant in this position.
In this case it is the opposite of a "besotted"male trading in his wife for a new model, rather the wife trading in the husband for a new life, that of the Matriarch in charge of the household where she could attend to her own spiritual evolution when free of the sexual constaints of the marriage bed . As one can see the 54th hexagram is fraught with danger especially for "unthinking" male .
You asked whether this manifests in a woman, well no it doesnt, she has the masculine equivalent called the Animus Which is entirely different in every way, however that will need to be kept for another day.
Django.
Sorry for the delay in getting back to your questions. How do I see these more transient Maidens in the bigger scheme of things? Well as I said above, the Anima's main role seems to be to keep the man awake [psychologically] "she seems to do this by causing tension. I am afraid there is no way to grow without suffering tension.
A psychological "hair" shirt so to speak. If we grow used to this inner Anima, we get comfortable and doze off. Jung maintained that mans greatest passion is not sex,, but laziness hence to give us a shake up the new Maiden is introduced
The ancient Chinese actually acted out the 54th hexagram, whereby a new concubine was introduced by the "chief" wife and introduced to the husbands bed after being instructed by the wife. She [the concubine]was taught not to abuse the natural power inherant in this position.
In this case it is the opposite of a "besotted"male trading in his wife for a new model, rather the wife trading in the husband for a new life, that of the Matriarch in charge of the household where she could attend to her own spiritual evolution when free of the sexual constaints of the marriage bed . As one can see the 54th hexagram is fraught with danger especially for "unthinking" male .
You asked whether this manifests in a woman, well no it doesnt, she has the masculine equivalent called the Animus Which is entirely different in every way, however that will need to be kept for another day.
Django.
C
candid
Guest
Hi Django,
I'm familiar with the anima and animas. That's not what I was asking. I'm asking how the enduring relationship of a male's anima relates with those smaller Yin introductions. But, now that I think about it, maybe you did answer after all in your example of the chief wife who introduces the concubine or new wife to her husband. hmmm
I'm familiar with the anima and animas. That's not what I was asking. I'm asking how the enduring relationship of a male's anima relates with those smaller Yin introductions. But, now that I think about it, maybe you did answer after all in your example of the chief wife who introduces the concubine or new wife to her husband. hmmm
Taking a maiden to wife can have several connotations. When we sign the papers to start working for a new company we in effect are taking a maiden to wife. When we have reconciliation between the conscious and subconscious mind we are basically taking a maiden to wife. How about signing a contract for a new home? Or accepting someone into our home as a new roommate? Lots of different possibilities.
Gene
Gene
C
candid
Guest
Gene - Great examples. Thanks.