Translation work question:

How individually stylized are ancient Chinese writings?

It occurred to me that, if we took four individuals from this forum - let’s take: LiSe, Hilary, Lindsay and Rosada – and we posed the same point of view of the same image to each of them, and told them to write it down, each would write the same thing but in four very different ways.

I know that in dealing with the Bible, each writer has a clear, definitive style, each reflecting their own blood line, their education and occupational approach to the topic of religion and philosophy.

In light of this, how are these personality traits of these early writers dealt with in your translation work? Or, is the work so stoic as to show no individual personalities? How does this complicate the work of translation?

[confucius]

I drifted slightly...because I value bruce_g


For comparison, some English translations of the Yi jing

Versions of Hexagram Meng.4 as rendered by various translators (line statements only)

James Legge (1899)

1. (Has respect to) the dispelling of ignorance. It will be advantageous to use punishment (for that purpose), and to remove the shackles (from the mind). But going on in that way (of punishment) will give occasion for regret.

2. (Shows its subject) exercising forbearance with the ignorant, in which there will be good fortune; and admitting even the goodness of women, which will also be fortunate. (He may be described also as) a son able to (sustain the burden of) his family.

3. (Seems to say) that one should not marry a woman whose emblem it might be, for that, when she sees a man of wealth, she will not keep her person from him, and in no wise will advantage come from her.

4. (Shows its subject as if) bound in chains of ignorance. There will be occasion for regret.

5. Shows its subject as a simple lad without experience. There will be good fortune.

6. We see one smiting the ignorant (youth). But no advantage.

Richard Wilhelm / Cary F. Baynes (1923/1951)

1. To make a fool develop It furthers one to apply discipline. The fetters should be removed. To go on in this way brings humiliation.

2.To bear with fools in kindliness brings good fortune. To know how to take women Brings supreme good fortune. The son is capable of taking charge of the household.

3.Take not a maiden who, when she sees a man of bronze, Loses possession of herself. Nothing furthers.

4.Entangled folly brings humiliation.

5.Childlike folly brings good fortune.

6.In punishing folly It does not further one To commit transgressions. The only thing that furthers Is to prevent transgressions.

Kerson and Rosemary Huang (1985)

1.The cataract is clearing. Good omen for one condemned. The shackles may be off, But walking is difficult.

2.The cook is blind. Auspicious for talking a daughter-in-law. The son will have a family.

3.Do not marry the girl. She sees the gold and not the man. Nothing good will come of it.

4.Trapped and blinded. Difficulty.

5.Childlike naivete. All goes well.

6.Strike the blind only in defense. Never in offense.

Richard John Lynn (1994)

1.With the opening up of Juvenile Ignorance, it is fitting both to subject him to the awareness of punishment and to remove fetters and schackles, but if he were to set out in this way, he would find it hard going.

2.To treat the Juvenile Ignorant with magnanimity means good fortune, To take a wife means good fortune. His child will be up to taking charge of the family.

3.It will not do to marry this woman. Here she sees a man strong as metal and discards her self-possession, so there is nothing at all fitting here.

4.Here confounded by Juvenile Ignorance, one becomes base,

5.The Juvenile Ignorant here will find good fortune.

6.Strike at Juvenile Ignorance, but it is not fitting to engage in harassment; it is fitting to guard against harassment

Richard Rutt (1996)
1.Pulling dodder. Favorable for giving punishment, or for removing shackles and fetters. Distress in travel.

2.Wrapping dodder. Auspicious. For bringing home a wife, auspicious. A son may be betrothed. Not for taking a wife.

3.Seeing a bronze arrow, having no bow. Favorable for nothing.

4.Dodder in bundles. Distress.

5.Dodder. Auspicious.

6.Knocking down dodder. Unfavourable for raiding. Favorable against raiders.

Thomas Christensen (2006)
1.Unleash the whelp, let him go

2.The fool will do you no harm

3.Some are not for marrying

4.Matted tangles mask the view

5.Mind the wisdom of the fool

6.One who gets slapped will laugh last


Confucius

Thanks, Confucius. Perhaps I worded my question poorly. I’m not asking about the personalities of translators but that of the original writers, and how a translator reckons with those unique individual traits and styles.

[rosada]

The translation by Thomas Chrisensen intrigued me so I tracked down his website. Fun read! His Book of Days is fascinating and he has a great collection of quotes and famous last words along with his rendition of our favorite book:

Rightreading.com

[denis_m]

Hello Bruce,

Yes, some lines have distinctive style. I don't have my Wilhelm or Lynn with me, so I can't check how they were handled. (I'm house-sitting now.) Lynn and Cleary tend to flatten the style. Wilhelm is good at catching different tones of expression.
There are lines that utter a direct appeal. For example: 61.2, "...I have a fine goblet, together with you I will drain it" and 12.5, "...what if it be lost, what if it be lost, tie it to a cluster of mulberry saplings!" Both of these lines start with an objective presentation, then switch to the appeal. To me they sound like they're by the same person.
Some lines have odd vocabulary that seems to have been coined out of the blue. For instance, 8 has "...the Johny-come-lately has misfortune." [The word fu1 is someone who deserves esteem for some reason, and here it's the "latecoming fu1."]
47.1 has "buttock-predicament on a tree stump..." 27.1 has "watching my flower-bud mouth..." ["Duo3" connotes something with soft folds, like an ear, a cloud, or a bud.] There is a cluster of such strange expressions at 27, 28, 29, and 30.
Hexagram 30 uses the suffixes -ru2 and ruo4 after adjectives and verbs. These give a momentary, passing quality to the images. I think some translators have conveyed that with the word "now": 30.4, "Sudden in its advent. Now burning, now dying, now cast aside." Scott Davis has noted that the -ru2 suffix is also found in 35.1, a hexagram which also has a fire radical. The -ru2 suffix is lambent.
It would be interesting to look at the hexagrams with unusually odd wording, and see if they have any common significance.

By the way, I liked your comment on 1.5 (I forget which thread), in which you said that this is about someone "flying inside her body."

Regards,

Denis M.

[confucius]

Personalities, as upbringing, environmental stimuli, historical and regional contexts and personal aptitudes, undoubtedly influenced various formats and ideo-grams; but, this idea, not as rigidly structured as a word, mutated dozens of times along its historical refinement and took a thousand years before being (set) in the pages of the Yi. Do not forget that in about 100 000 tortoise shells found to date, some spread through roughly 800 years: styles, tools, simplification, refinement and adaptation have mutated the ideograms, though the essential idea remains the same...as Shakespeare said: a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet...

Fu Zi

Hi, thank you and welcome to the forum, Denis.

That 1.5 quote sounds more like Rosada, or one of the others may have said it. I don’t think it was from me.

I gather from what you’ve said that these expressions originate from the authors and not from the translators? If so, great! That’s what I’m looking for. I was also curious if any of our in-house etymology experts would care to address the subjective or poetic license of individual writing styles of the authors. Thanks for stepping up and addressing my question.

I have difficulty believing that the Yi and similar writings are as clinical and pragmatic in style as most translators present the works to be. Your comments bring the subjective elements of the original writers to the front; for example, when a word or phrase has been coined by the author, or when a writer’s personality is taken into account regarding a particular intended meaning. Individual elements such as sarcasm, tongue-in-cheek humor, directness, crafty choice of words and the personal idiosyncrasies of the authors appear to go unmentioned, at least from the contributors to this board.

Thanks again.

Howdy, Confucius,

Ideograms apparently aren’t given much credence by most of our translation experts here.

Shakespeare, what an interesting example of an author. If his words were to be translated some 3,000 years from now, I wonder if the translation would reflect his own ingenious personality and style, or if it would be rendered strictly in literal terms? Even funnier, how might they interpret Lewis Carroll’s Jabberwocky? Surely modern western culture has no corner on inventive writing.

[getojack]

Bruce,

Reminds me of a passage from Philip Dick's "The Divine Invasion" that I happen to be reading...

Into the stereo microphones Asher said distinctly, " 'O tell me all about Anna Livia! I want to hear all about Anna Livia. Well, you know Anna Livia? Yes, of course, we all know Anna Livia. Tell me all. Tell me now. You'll die when you hear. Well, you know when the old cheb went futt and did what you know. Yes, I know, go on. Wash quit and don't be dabbling. Tuck up your sleeves and loosen your talktapes. And don't butt me -- hike! -- when you bend. Or whatever --' "

"What is this?" the autochthon said, listening to the translation into his own tongue.

Grinning, Herb Asher said, "A famous Terran book. 'Look, look, the dusk is growing. My branches lofty are taking root. And my cold cher's gone ashley. Fieluhr? Filou! What age is at? It saon is late. 'Tis endless now senne --' "

"The man is mad," the autochthon said, and turned toward the hatch, to leave.

"It's Finnegan's Wake," Herb Asher said. "I hope the translating computer got it for you. 'Can't hear with the waters of. The chittering waters of. Flittering bats, fieldmice bawk talk. Ho! Are you not gone ahome? What Thom Malone? Can't hear --' "

The autochthon had left, convinced of Herb Asher's insanity. Asher watched him through the port; the autochthon strode away from the dome of indignation.

And you know Philip Dick was a Yi-ologist?

Jack,

That’d be quite a challenge to translate. And that’s what I wonder about. What is lost by the loss of the personalities who actually wrote this I Ching stuff? It could well be like Jay Leno telling a Bob Hope joke, or Mariah Carey singing a Jimi Hendrix song; “Scuse me while I kiss the sky” just doesn’t mean the same thing.