Dear all,
This is a continuation of my post "help! hexagram 32 (relationship)", but as it concerns another response from the Yi, I have started a fresh thread. Again I will be really glad of your thoughts and insights. Sorry this one is very peicemeal.

I asked the Yi,
"Please tell me if I am right to press on single mindedly in this direction given that I feel very weak and sad in the immediate situation. "

The Yi responded with hex 30.6
I am not really sure of the meaning of this hexagram. I can see a number of elements, but have difficulty understanding the basic idea:

Li stands for Fire, and for nature in its radiance (Wilhelm). This is doubled - so there is some sense of something being twice bright.

Willhelm's commentary on the judgement seems to focus the reader on the idea of the source of perseverence. So he says:
A luminous thing giving out light must have within itself something that perseveres; otherwise it will in time burn itself out
In the human sphere it appears to indicate "clinging to what is right" (Wilhelm). The sense of right appears to be to depend "upon the harmonious and beneficent forces of the cosmos" (Wilhelm)
(I am not sure what the two fold clarity of the dedicated man is?)
The attitude suggested by Wilhelm is of one of "cultivating in himself an attitude of compliance and voluntary dependence, man acquires clarity without sharpness and finds his place in the world."

IC+ commentary gives the meaning of Li as Guiding. The sense here seems to be, that the source of the brightness is the intellect (in it original sense) as a faculty able to discern being from nonbeing or truth from untruth. And from this - the idea of Guiding.
This seems consistent with the points made by Wilhelm.

My question is what relationship does this have with the question I asked of the Yi!?!

In my question to the Yi, I referred to the immediate situation. I should explain what this is.

I feel a little bad writing about it in detail, because you might not want to know all these things. But on the other hand I cant see that its possible to give a good insight into the Yi's answer without sharing with you what I know. So I will press on in a spirit of professionalism.

The immediate situation is that the other person she loves has just been there for a few days, and now left. And as a result we have both been feeling a little alienated, and stressed. Niether she nor I, felt like talking to each other today, sensing we wouldnt feel easy together.

Indeed its not easy to talk when you cant see a solution. All you end up with is situation of heaviness, which neither enjoys. But niether of us could face ending the day without contact also. I didnt make contact, and this offended her a little, thinking she might lose me. ("I thought you would refuse to talk to me")

So we had a dismal, moody conversation. We both said we dont want anything heavy, and dont like making each other sad. She said (I will summarise), I dont want you to go away from me. Being with you makes me happy. But dont want to take responsibility for your sadness. If you come here, come because you want to be here, because I cant bear for you to be sad."

This made me feel as if at this point the relationship was really overburdened. So I renewed my earlier question to the Yi in the light of this development.

Back to the Yi -

The changing line is 6.
The king uses him to march forth and chastise.
Then it is best to kill the leaders
And take captive the followers. No blame

Again, I am really puzzled as to the meaning or advice I should take from this. My sense from Wilhelm is that it indicates an action of fine distinction, being decisive yet knowing where to stop. In some sense also it is a moderate action (not killing all of them). In essence it may mean, "to cut out the heart of a problem is enough"

But I am puzzled by the martial metaphor here. Clearly the Yi intends the flavour given by this metaphor. The image of 30.6 appears to be about quelling a rebellion, within a political context perhaps? The sense of it may be of not alienating by too draconian an action.

In this drama there 4 players, the king, the "him" the leaders and the followers. If this understood as an inner parable, then the king is one who has righteous authority (self, Tao, true knowledge - perhaps) and the "Him" is one who faithfully conducts the Kings authority (inner clarity?). The rebels are those powers in obstruct what is radiant.

Alternatively, the image may apply to a situation in the external world. However I dont see, a rebellion or someone in need of chatisement. The actors in my drama are myself, her and him. My sense is not to apply it literally. But you may see something I have not.

The limit of my clarity on 30.6 seems to be "cut out the heart of this problem but dont act in too harsh a way". I dont know if this is what it is saying? But whatever the real meaning is, I guess it must be within the context of "Li". And this, is a puzzle.

Usually I find the IC+ comments incredibly illuminating. But Chris' words on 30.6 about the body not being needed, puzzle me.
From a position of strength, one enforces discipline through removing the head. Once done there is no need for the body. No harm in this
Leaving the point about the body aside, does it mean, that I should pursue this singlemindedness from a position of strength and not feel weak (as I have been)?

I feel like I could be completely missing the point here!

As for the second Hexagram - 55. Fullness always sounds good!

Abundance has success.
The king attains abundance.
Be not sad.
Be like the sun at midday.

This would fit well with my tentative interpretation of Chris's comment on line 6 of 30. Perhaps the meaning is "pull your socks up, being sad will not help, but being bright will"

Or it may mean that acting as suggested by Li will produce abundance? Clearly, abundance is what we dont have in this current situation!

I am not sure if the second Hexagram should be taken as further guidance, or merely as a result of following the first? Since it contains a judgement, I guess it intends guidance.

In H55 Li also appears (Wilhelm) in the form of inner clarity, but here it is combined with movement or action. This produces abundance.

Chris's comments again are helpful
"once one has reached a peak, it follows that we head towards the down cycle. Here, tension is at it's peak pending a conscious release and these 'social outbreaks' need controlling - An arousing influence with guidance"

This seems to reflect parts of my situation. There has been a peak, and there is stress which needs channelling or guiding in the right direction.

I am not sure therefore if the meaning to take is: to deal with this burdened situation you must guide with strength and be an uplifting influence - ?

Another puzzling point is that H55 seems to have a connection with punishment
Clarity [Li] within makes it possible to investigate the facts exactly, and shock [Chên] without ensures a strict and precise carrying out of punishments. (Wilhelm)
Exact investigation of facts and appropriate action - are understandable instructions.

However, I am not sure how or whether the idea of punishment fits in this situation. I guess it has a metaphorical rather than literal significance, as I am not in the position of a sentencer. Therefore I turn to the essential idea of punishment for guidance. The essential idea of punishment is perhaps an action to correct something that has strayed from its path. (?)

So perhaps I should ask myself, if something has strayed from its path, and needs correction? Again, is it one of us who has strayed from the right way and needs correction? Or is it something within?

Again I am not sure if Iam wildly off track here. It could be that this aspect of "punishment, law suits etc" is not part of the Yi's advice to me, since it appears to have a more peripheral status in the hexagrams meaning.

My vague sense of this response of the Yi to my question is:

The general idea is: Yes, persevere in what you have set yourself. Strength to persevere comes from inner clarity /being joined with what is "right". The guidance of which dispells all doubts and is radiant (joyful).

Line 6 specifically: It is necessary not to throw the baby out with the bath water! But the rebels (ie adhering to something wrong, unclear, confused?) must be dealt with.

From acting in this way comes (H55) Abundance in which movement/ action are combined with clarity. From this abundance one should be able to act as an uplifting influence on the downward (rebellious/disharmonious?) effects which are now operating.

Phew! Any thoughts???

I'm wondering if this part:

"From a position of strength, one enforces discipline through removing the head. Once done there is no need for the body. No harm in this."

might indicate (in your set of particulars) discovering what benefit you receive from hanging in this stalemate? What leads you there, and keeps you there? Perhaps that piece of information within you is "the head", and seeing it clearly might be enough to allow you to find your place in the world?

Rinda, hoping this is helpful...

55 refers to the execution of a decision, not necessarily punishment as Wilhelm states. Sort of like "putting your foot down", letting the gavel fall. Since this is the relating hexagram, I wouldn't view this as what you should do, but that it is the matter at hand.

Line 6 of hex 30 shows a similar execution of judgment. The decision is whether to make heads roll or to take captives. Heads rolling is putting the matter to death, to end it. Taking captives makes use of what is salvageable and still usable. The task here is to not use your hurt feelings as a weapon against her. She is not your enemy.

Another interesting view of 30 is that of setting a net. If you haven't already, check out LiSe's hex. 30. I think it may shed some light on the matter (pun intended). http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_17-32/hex_e_30.htm

Wow!

Thank you Bruce, you words are really twice bright! This makes so much sense! I will check the link....

Re Bruce's thoughts

Line 6 of hex 30 shows a similar execution of judgment. The decision is whether to make heads roll or to take captives. Heads rolling is putting the matter to death, to end it. Taking captives makes use of what is salvageable and still usable. The task here is to not use your hurt feelings as a weapon against her. She is not your enemy.

I am really grateful for this. Hearing it, it is as if a peice of the jigsaw has fallen into place.

55 refers to the execution of a decision, not necessarily punishment as Wilhelm states. Sort of like "putting your foot down", letting the gavel fall. Since this is the relating hexagram, I wouldn't view this as what you should do, but that it is the matter at hand.

Can I clarify if putting my foot down refers to the decision about salvaging or ending? Or is it another decision - perhaps a decision to "be not sad but like the sun at midday"?

Lise's comments are also very useful.

Somewhere in my question to the Yi there was an idea of being grimly determined in the face of adversity fear of loss etc. (I didnt see this, until you pointed out about not using my hurt feelings as a weapon against her. I didnt see the putting the matter "to death, to end" which was there in shadow also.)

Lise's comments elucidate something about the Yi's advice on this point. Grimly... is unnatural, tense etc. It can only evoke the wrong response from the world.

It seems to me that the Yi says that the kind of perseverence needed is of another kind altogther from being "grimly determined". As Lise says:

Hexagram 30 is a double fire: within the fire of motivation, and outside the radiance this fire brings in all your deeds, in your face, in everything which emanates

Separate yourself from everything which is conditioning your feelings, your life Another way of saying this is "Let your light (love) shine"

"Be not sad. Be like the sun at midday."

Beautiful resolution.

Hi satya,

I asked the Yi,
"Please tell me if I am right to press on single mindedly in this direction given that I feel very weak and sad in the immediate situation. "

The Yi responded with hex 30.6 >55

Hex 30.6 says to proceed with your course of action, try and find a way to remove your opponent(the head,the other guy, the person causing the upset), this will then give you the freedom that you desire. "Take captive the followers", means that she is a follower of the other guy, so get him out of the picture and take her captive. She will then be yours and yours alone. If you have any negative thoughts or bad habits, then this is the time to discipline yourself, and remove the unwanted baggage. But, don't be too hard on yourself, don't become a monk because that will certainly not help in this situation. Removing the other guy will restore peace and harmony back into your relationship but it is upto you to figure out how to do this.

Hex 55 says to remain bright and cheerful, and don't worry, release your fears and anxiety about the future, live only in the present. Then your relationship should grow, so be generous and giving. Make the most of this time because nothing stays the same forever, prepare for the future now, after abundance comes decline, so stock up on all the goodies now. It is about making hay while the sun shines, so go ahead and enjoy the present times, the future and its problem have not arrived yet, but the times they are a changing. Enlighten yourself to the situation, so that you can make the right descisions, that will not only affect you but others as well. Therefore, collect all the facts and you should be able to make the correct judgements as what to do now. To carry out punishments means here to carry out the right course of action that should be taken.

Hex 55 indicates the end of June, 2007, I give you this date because it maybe of use to you.

""Please tell me if I am right to press on single mindedly in this direction given that I feel very weak and sad in the immediate situation.

The Yi responded with hex 30.6"

30.6 is about removing the source of the trouble in the situation, being free of its evil influence, and being without fault. As a quick reading, I'd say the 'evil' in this situation might be the weakness and sadness you're feeling, which is incapacitating you with doubt. It's even burdening her, according to what you said she said - "But dont want to take responsibility for your sadness." So, what's the source of that weakness and sadness you're feeling? It's probably not fear or anger, but it might be self-pity of some kind. Anyway, if you can identify it and dispense with it, you'll be free of its very negative influence (on you, on her, on the relationship) and you'll be without fault in doing so. Good luck with it.

Dobro -

Thanks - this coincides with my feeling too!

Willowfoxes thoughts

HI Willowfox!

Thank you for this also! The Yi seems to give an incredibly complete response,not just in part or on one level only.

I think the counsel against negativity is the fundamental point that the Yi makes about the inner side of this relationship.

But it would be strange if the Yi didnt give counsel about resolving the outer side of this difficulty.

The point you make about her ceasing to be a follower of him for this relationship to blossum, has to be correct. It would be disengenous to say otherwise.

I'd be quite shocked to think that the Yi counseled me to take an action to remove him from the relationship, in an "unsporting" way. Am I naive? Interesting to hear others views on that! However what comes to mind is the martial tenor of 30.6. It puzzles me whether this tenor is indicative of the tenor of the action required???

My sense is that It is necessary to capture her heart fully, rather than remove him. I dont have any intuition about taking any kind of action to push him out of the situation, except what happens by itself, simply through my being there with her. Choosing your own person to love was always a free choice, and no one could compel it.

I can't see any argument that could counter that. Can you? If I thought he was an obviously bad person or a bad influence, I would think differently. But I dont think that. Most importantly, she cares for him too.


I feel sure that he will not bring out the best in her, from many things that have happened between them in the past. But Im also aware that my own ideas of what someone needs may be far short of what they actually need to make them happy.

Hi satya,

"I'd be quite shocked to think that the Yi counseled me to take an action to remove him from the relationship, in an "unsporting" way. Am I naive? Interesting to hear others views on that! However what comes to mind is the martial tenor of 30.6. It puzzles me whether this tenor is indicative of the tenor of the action required???"

A surgical strike to remove the head perhaps?

Perhaps moving to X country and being with her everyday, would in fact remove his influence upon her, therefore no need to resort to"unsporting ways". It would also make it extremely difficult for him to visit her if you were always close by, he would feel uncomfortable and leave, eventually he would stop visiting. He would remove himself from the picture. I believe that you can get rid of your opponent by just being physically present, no violence need. An action(relocating), to non action (just being there), back to action(his removal of himself). A case of water wearing down a rock. There are many ways to overcome an opponent, think, plan, and take action.

Hi satya,

On the negative side now, hex 30.6 suggests that you should do something about your rival, if you don't then the situation will remain exactly the same, the trio. Are you afraid to make a move incase you upset the balance and in so doing alienating your girl. It seems that you don't want to make that necessary move. Your rival seems quite content to let things be, and your girl also seems not to want to change the order of things. Of course you must realise that a three way affair cannot endure, someone will have to break the circle, sooner or later. So that is why hex 30.6 says for you to initiate the action now. I suspect that if you don't then a breaking point will naturally happen next year.

Hex 55 is abundance but it does not last forever, it is now, the present time. This hex is warning you to prepare for the future of this relationship, to build the foundations. As the sun sets, then so will this relationship, unless you do something now. Therefore, if you make the wrong choices now, the wrong judgement of the relationship, you can expect future punishment. Joy now, tears later. You gather in the harvest now, so that you have food through the bleak winter months.

holy smokes this is a good person satya

Satya, you have detailed this situation for us beautifully, the complexities of a relationship, the complexities of understanding the IC lines and meaning. It is little wonder we bat about it all forever here on onlineclarity.co.uk., and in our lives.

Is it over simple to say that the IC says you have an enduring relation (32)?

Is it over simple to say that, line 6 in 30 to 55, indicates 'go for it'?

a poison free takeover
what is the weather in her heart today
how will she deal with the three
or will there only be two

details at 6?

satya said:

....
I'd be quite shocked to think that the Yi counseled me to take an action to remove him from the relationship, in an "unsporting" way. Am I naive? Interesting to hear others views on that! However what comes to mind is the martial tenor of 30.6. It puzzles me whether this tenor is indicative of the tenor of the action required???
.

Click to expand...

Just to focus on categories for a moment re fire - in the LOWER position it represents guidance but in the UPPER position it represents guidance doubled and so more explicit, more proactive. I give this the label of 'direction setting' or an 'ideology'.

Direction setting/ideology covers simple decision making (local) or some development and use of a hard-core, universal, path to follow (doctrine, ideology)

When we include categories of emotion, fire represents acceptance and associated issues with (water covers rejection issues - BOTH cover boundary issues but fire pushes its out, water tries to remain 'as is' or tighten itself to protect rather than exploit.)

When we get to line 6 in the IC hexagrams, we are covering traits of the line position associated with hexagram 23 - and so a sense of pruning etc In this context of 30 that pruning can include the 'head' aka the leader of the ideology or the ideology principles, the 'force' - remove the leader, prune the leader, treat as if chaff, and the body is 'meaningless'. ( but in some cases we have hydra issues - a new head emerges from the position of the old one)

I think you can see here the links to the apparent 'removal' of the head, but this is metaphor/analogy rooted in links to all of the other hexagrams - especially in this case with its ties to 23 for the line position and so a 'vibe' is present for the line position giving as vague notions of pruning, structural collapse etc etc Link that with the focus on guidance/direction-setting and the link to the 'head' being removed becomes clear.

In IC+ 55 and 30 share the same meaning space other than 55 is unconditional, 30 conditional.

If we focus on the IC+ change interpretation then it reads "with/from ideology/guidance comes:

55 Abundance (Fullness)
Abounding,Overflowing,Diversity
In a context of guidance we utilise (sudden) awareness.

"FENG : abundant, plentiful, copious; grow wealthy; at the point of overflowing; exuberant, fertile, prolific; rich in talents, property, friends; fullness, culmination; ripe, sumptuous, fat."ERANOS p586

Image :
"[With guidance comes awareness : Overflowing] One uses severe laws to enforce punishments."

the unconditional nature of 55 means all aspects of the meaning are covered in general - be they bad or good. As such, there is no head, no particular; it is all 'happening' in all directions (as a circle, boundary, expands - with an ideology the expansion is biased, pointed, particular).

Now look at 55.6 where it will change into 30:

Line 6 -
"Full to the rafters, hiding one's home. Looking through the door, one is observed living alone, one has no social contact for three years. Unfortunate." [more concerned with 'things' one has lost one's direction.]

Here all of that 'happening' in all directions has led to the content of the boundary being full of 'things'. What is missing? an ideology, a sense of direction reflected in the changing line (again influenced by 23 but now in a context of 55)- IOW the 'head' is missing. (to be a 'head' means having something/someone to lead but the comment here is one is alone)

We can relate the line change of 30.6 to a transition from an ideological 'life' to a 'material' life. IOW sometime we can be too ideological and so in need of 'things' and at other times too 'things' oriented and in need of some ideology! ;-) Either way requires some form of pruning aka quality control - pick out the 'good bits' and remove the rest. (this also covers aspects of 55 about there being thieves around when times are good and so needs for laws etc)

Overall we see the dynamics of possessions bias leading to a 'need' for spiritual/ideology and spiritual/ideology bias leading to a 'need' for possessions etc.

As to YOUR particular situation, I dont follow 'random/miraculous' methods in that I am more focused at the moment on emotional dynamics so I suggest you try the Emotional IC material - still in 'prototype' form but I think useful -

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/EmotionalIC.html

( I have recently added some text of projection/transference issues as well)

hope the above has been helpful in covering the 30.6 issue re what it means in general.

Chris.