Hi all,

Just exploring 17. After doing a hunt around in past threads I found little on this particular line. I don't have a particular related question I'm just interested in how folks interpret it. The Wilhelm rendering seems a bit obscure to me.

It seems to be about being called back into activity of some kind when you'd would really rather hang up yer boots and put your slippers on. But you're called back into the frey in whatever ways that is manifesting.

Along with the transition to 25 seems like there are issues of "entangling" according to Chris and being almost forced to just bow to the inevitable - going with the flow without any expectations. Innocent duty? Doing what needs to be done without to much fuss and bother.

Anybody have any experiences of 17.6 to widen my understanding of it?

Topal

topal said:

Hi all,
Just exploring 17. After doing a hunt around in past threads I found little on this particular line. I don't have a particular related question I'm just interested in how folks interpret it. The Wilhelm rendering seems a bit obscure to me. Topal

Click to expand...

Seize and bind them
Then follow, holding them fast
The Sovereign will offer a sacrifice at the Western Mountain

17.6x Seize (and) bind them:
At the top (is) extremity

Following doesn't leave you unaccountable for your actions.
"I was only following orders" was the attempted defense at the
Nuremberg trials, but it didn't work.
This is a harsh one - the guilty are sacrificed.

This is one of the Gua, like 15, that takes several lines to explain what
it is Not. In this case, Following is not blind belief or submission.

Well, Topal, 17.6 is a tough one.

The first part of it is anyone's guess. In Chinese:

ju1 - seized, captured
xi4 - bound, tied up
zhi1 - they, them
Possibly: "they are seized and tied up"

nai3 - then, after this
cong2 - follow, pursue
wei2 - tied up, held fast
zhi1 - they, them
Possibly: "then those who follow are tied up"

What does this mean? Beats me. I have looked at 15 translations by scholars familiar with old Chinese, and there are 15 different interpretations. If anyone says they know the exact meaning, I would question that claim seriously.

However, the last part is pretty straightforward:

wang2 - king
yong4 - makes, presents
heng1 - offering, sacrifice
yu2 - on, at
xi1 - west, western
shan1 - mountain
Probably: "the king makes a sacrifice on the Western Mountain"

For some reason, Wilhelm translates this as "The king introduces him to the Western Mountain." You can see there is no "introduce" and no "him" in the original text. In fact, the only pronoun in the text is zhi1, "they, them" - a definite plural, more than one person.

This part of the text is clearly about a ritual sacrifice the king performed at a specific location. Most of these sacrifices, historically speaking, were made to ancestors in advance for certain favorable outcomes. I do not know of any sacrifices that were made for thanksgiving, such as are found in the Torah, for favors granted. But you can be sure sacrifices of the anticipatory sort were considered very important for securing the future, not just for the king, but for his subjects as well.

So, what to make of it all? People are captured, and also those that follow them. This sounds like trouble to me, in the context of Hex 17. But the king - the focal point where heaven and earth meet - performs the requisite sacrifice at the appointed place. This sounds good to me, in the long run. The order of Heaven and Earth is assured.

Line 6 often shows things going awry. Here I would say "following" has become a liability. Yet, fundamentally, all is well. The ancestors/gods are happy. When that is the case, mortals get pretty much what they deserve.

So, in the baldest terms, I would say the text suggests there will be serious problems connected with following, but in the end, justice.

This doesn't sound anything like what you mentioned as possible interpretations, so I expect others will question it.

Glad I'm not the only one who has struggled with this line. I can't explain exactly what it means but I know the feeling I'm experiencing when I receive it. It is that of disappointment and fatigue, even though I did my best, and that in the end, things will work out as they 're supposed to. But there's also a sense that more was asked of me than what seemed fair or reasonable, or even more than what I am capable of. My only hope is that the sacrifice is worth it, and that the gods hear of it. Vain as it is, a little recognition from above feels good.

17.6 talks about the king, and when the Yi talks about the king, it talks about your capacity for making decisions and order. The king is the agent here, the active one, so the situation involves making decisions that create order.

It also talks about the ancestral Western Mountain, so we're dealing with 'source and origin', what we in the West call 'God'.

The context, of course, is that of something being followed.

And what does it mean? It's a sort of 'as above, so below' thing, I think.

Held back and attached, so your followers are attached to it also. The way to deal with it is to get in touch with source. But in this day and age, the Yi user isn't a king and doesn't have followers usually. So I take it to mean a sort of comprehensive attachment is involved: you're held back in a way that involves all aspects of your life. And just like the king going to the Western Mountain to make some offering to the ancestors, the way to deal with it is to get in touch with Source.

When you're not free, surrender. Then you're free.

Ok, thanks very much everyone. That's given me some possibilities, in summary:

"...you're held back in a way that involves all aspects of your life. And just like the king going to the Western Mountain to make some offering to the ancestors, the way to deal with it is to get in touch with Source. When you're not free, surrender. Then you're free."

"It is that of disappointment and fatigue, even though I did my best, and that in the end, things will work out as they 're supposed to. But there's also a sense that more was asked of me than what seemed fair or reasonable, or even more than what I am capable of."

"...'following' has become a liability. Yet, fundamentally, all is well. The ancestors/gods are happy. When that is the case, mortals get pretty much what they deserve.
...the text suggests there will be serious problems connected with following, but in the end, justice."

"Following doesn't leave you unaccountable for your actions.
'I was only following orders' was the attempted defense at the
Nuremberg trials, but it didn't work.
This is a harsh one - the guilty are sacrificed.

This is one of the Gua, like 15, that takes several lines to explain what
it is Not. In this case, Following is not blind belief or submission."


Hmmm.

Topal

Topal, after reading all the things that have been written here, it seems to me that Bradford's take is probably the likeliest, and I see nothing in Lindsay's useful contribution that would contradict it. But I have to ask Bradford and Lindsay a question: I know that the Chinese practised human sacrifice; in the case of the Western Mountain, do you know anything that would either support or challenge the human sacrifice idea?

This take on the line resonates with Hex 25, too.

dobro said:

I know that the Chinese practised human sacrifice; in the case of the Western Mountain, do you know anything that would either support or challenge the human sacrifice idea? This take on the line resonates with Hex 25, too.

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Hi-
I don't think I can actually substantiate human sacrifice here. It's certainly not from the Wang Bi interpretation that most follow. The word for the offering is heng, and this is one of a few places where it is used for xiang, as an offering that "fulfills duties" or "follows through". The Mawangdui ms is no help, using feng1, a fragrant grass symbolic of the reputation of character or virtue, used in the offering. I do have a rule to not break up the texts into a lot of disjointed ideas, but see them as meaningful wholes, so to me it was the logical thing to do with those who were seized and bound in the previous sentence.
The modernist scholars of course make a huge deal out of human sacrifice, but they draw most of their suggestions from the Shang, where it was more prevalent and more likely to involve innocent people. I think this is just as anachronistic as they accuse the Confucians of being. But human sacrifice did carry into the Zhou, particularly "following" upon a victory, where consequences were portioned out, viz the heads rolling at 30.6.

I should probably add that none of the words in the previous post concerning follow through, consequences, etc. were accidental. The Sovereign is following protocols, doing what is expected of him and what follows logically following a military victory or the suppression of an uprising. Heng is the fulfillment of this.

bradford said:

But human sacrifice did carry into the Zhou, particularly "following" upon a victory, where consequences were portioned out, viz the heads rolling at 30.6.

Click to expand...

Okay, 17.6 and 30.6. Anywhere else?

dobro said:

Okay, 17.6 and 30.6. Anywhere else?

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None that I would suggest as referring to human sacrifice.

Okay, but my experience of heng1 is that its meaning varies depending on the hex/line it's in. 17.6 is one of the places it comes across as 'sacrifice' but in most other places (like in the main text of 17) I read it more along the lines of 'attaining' or 'accomplishing' or something like that.

Which 'sacrifice' meanings for heng1 do you see?

dobro said:

Which 'sacrifice' meanings for heng1 do you see?

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I've glossed heng1 as the graphically similar xiang3 (sacrifice) at 14.4, 17.6, 45.0 and 46.4.
This isn't unusual. Most translators do this for these four.

14.3

And it's the first heng1 in 45, right?

Those all fit, yeah. Thanks.

Hey, now that I know that, am I part of the esoteric circle? Do I get a badge? Is there a secret handshake?

dobro said:

14.3
And it's the first heng1 in 45, right?
Hey, now that I know that, am I part of the esoteric circle? Do I get a badge? Is there a secret handshake?

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Second Heng is the offering.

And no, you have to do the thing with the goat first.
And that's only on special days.

bradford said:

Second Heng is the offering.

And no, you have to do the thing with the goat first.
And that's only on special days.

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Alright. But I get to pick the goat.

dobro said:

Alright. But I get to pick the goat.

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That's OK - it's within the tradition. This ain't one of them Wacky cults.

I think 17.6 means that one is tied to whatever is the question ask in relation where something is leading. One cannot leave it behind and therefore the self is sacrificed in a way to remain in the world of human condition, even the king is calling you back since there is nowhere else to go. Also 17.2 is recommended to turn back to 17.1 and as soon as one gets to 17.3 one is asked to remain where one is since there is nothing else to gain however, we are following 17.4. When we come to 17.6 we can only turn back to the ruler, the king and get the honour to be submitted to the ruling families holy mountain to sacrifice. Unfortunately, one stays tied up to the human condition since there is nowhere else to follow.

Hex 17.6 >> hex 25 Expresses recognition of True Achievement and Excellence

It seems to be about being called back into activity of some kind when you'd would really rather hang up yer boots and put your slippers on. But you're called back into the frey in whatever ways that is manifesting.

Click to expand...

When we come to 17.6 we can only turn back to the ruler, the king and get the honour to be submitted to the ruling families holy mountain to sacrifice. Unfortunately, one stays tied up to the human condition since there is nowhere else to follow.

Click to expand...

Hi All,

This is a great Oracle of personal recognition and certification of True Achievement. This Oracle is the final line of the hexagram of Following or Tracking rather than going off on your own. Like a locomotive upon its railway track, the Tao of Following is very proper and productive. To illustrate how special and well-regarded this hexagram was to the Commentators, even this final line has a magnificent judgment.

Here in the final place, where one might think there was nowhere left to follow, we learn NOT AT ALL! There remain glorious, transcendent paths for the most distinguished and worthy to follow into eternity. The excellent and accomplished person in this 6th line follows beyond in two dimensions: first he returns to help the King deal with the ongoing problems of the Nation, showing that public service by the best of sages is following beyond to even greater merit.

The other dimension was that the King recognizes this sage's merit and achievement and gives him Eternal Recognition upon the Great Western Mountain. Here in the US we actually have such a Mountain in our Western region, called Mt. Rushmore where four of our great Presidents are memorialized.

Then as a further and final indication of the special excellence of this Oracle, the Resultant Hexagram is Hex 25. Though the Judgment of Hexagram 25 contains the warning: "If someone is not as he should be..." The Judgment begins with the four fundamental slogans of Hexagram One. Thus, if one is the great sage of the final line of hex 17, then one follows Beyond, being the Magical Dragon of Heaven living as an honored human sage on Earth...

Frank