I have been feeling the need to take a few steps back from a situation, and turned to the Yi for confirmation or infirmation. The answer was 12.3. It changes to 33, so I took that as a yes, retreat.

But 12.3 got me thinking. It has various translations. Wilhelm translates it as "they bear shame"; this is also the translation chosen by Javary and Faure. Karcher translates it as "wrapped offerings" - a very different perspective,though still one that counsels holding back. Bradford's translation is "embracing the unworthy" - the accent being on indiscriminate behaviour. I don't have Huang handy at the moment, so I don't know how he translates it.

The situation I am involved in has no "shame" involved - at least not for me. The only unworthiness might be in following a wrong route through precipitate or insistent action (hence my feeling that I needed to step back at the moment). Karcher's translation makes the most sense to my own situation. Yet I see Karcher's translation repeatedly cricised on this forum, and there have been times where the shame aspect of 12.3 applied perfectly (in other situations).

How do you see 12.3? Have you ever drawn it in a situation where you didn't see "shame" or "unworthiness"? Could it refer to the other person involved? (In my case, this would make sense, despite asking about what my own actions should be.). Should I be picking and choosing translations like this when I can't figure out a hexagram's application to my own case - or should I stick to the one I first decide to read for that draw, with the risk, sometimes, of bending the situation to match the translation? (this is a wider question than 12.3, I realise).

Of course, it's possible the Yi was simply saying - you're asking a silly question, go with your feeling and retreat

Hex 12.3 suggests that you don't try and do something that is beyond your capabilities, if you do then you could end up looking silly.

Hex 33 says that you should retreat from the situation for the time being, at least until you are in a stronger position to deal with it. It does not tell you to runaway, only to back off and wait for a better time to attack.

sophie said:

I have been feeling the need to take a few steps back from a situation, and turned to the Yi for confirmation or infirmation. The answer was 12.3. It changes to 33, so I took that as a yes, retreat.

Click to expand...

Whatever word translates xiu1, unworthiness, shame, disgrace (it ain't offerings), it should also be used at 32.3.
Maybe what this is saying is that the situation you're leaving is beneath you, let others cling to it or embrace it

Thanks for your answers.

I've been reading about xiu showing a hand leading a sheep - representing the offering in sacrifice. The "shame" therefore is the Chinese sense of smallness and indequacy before a superior power (in this case, presumably, a god).

So I've been thinking over the past few days. "They bear shame"might refer to the feeling of shame either party might be feeling in respect of a "superior" attitude (in the sense of more virtuous, kinder, etc.) displayed by the other party, when they can't reciprocated, or feel they haven't deserved that attitude. Not the only meaning, I realise, but it fits.

Thoughts?