44.4

maremaria · Aug 31, 2007

Hi,

Can we talk about 44.4 ?

Although this is the second time I received it, this time nothing makes sense to me. Many questions aroused by reading 44.4 as well as 57.4 ( I thought that maybe 57.4 could help me to understand it better…… It didn’t

)

What are the meanings of “fish” and “insignificance people” and where they “live”. Outside ourselves and/ or inside.? Maybe it depends on the question but what is the general meaning of these expressions, if we can say that there is a general meaning?

Wilhelm says “we became alienated” and LiSe “too unapproachable”, I assume from the “fish” and what stands behind that ,but I can understand what is all about ?

That distance creates problems so we must move towards them, act , try to reach them, but which is the destination and what should we approach. ?

And if 57.4 talks about that “approach” how you can explain it ?

There are more questions but for now I believe is better just to talk about the above.
Any thoughts, insights, examples from you would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance,
Maria

Ps. I quote the available translations of 44.4 and 57.4

Wilhelm
No fish in the tank.
This leads to misfortune.
Insignificant people must be tolerated in order to keep them well disposed. Then we can make use of them if we should need them. If we become alienated from them and don't meet them halfway, they turn their backs on us and are not at our disposal when we need them. But this is our own fault.

LiSe
When one is too unapproachable one makes the arrival of creativity in life impossible. It is not for nothing that the artist seeks the seamy side of life. Too much distance causes sterility. Give everything in life a chance to be met, just examine it's value. Often a mixture of mutually incompatible things brings about creativity.

Chris
"Holding on to nothing. Undertaking{rise-up} anything exposes one to danger." [valueless convictions

]

LiSe 57 4: Regrets go away. Catching three kinds of game in the hunt.
When something is accomplished, that is not the end. Let it live on, so it blends in with your life. Give feelings a chance to be expressed and shared, hope and pride to be seen, deeds to be acknowledged. Celebrate everything, nothing is insignificant, nothing should pass unnoticed and get forgotten.

57.4 Wilhelm
Remorse vanishes.
During the hunt
Three kinds of game are caught.

When a responsible position and accumulated experience lead one to
combine innate modesty with energetic action, great success is assured. The
three kinds of animals referred to served for offerings to the gods, for feasting
guests, and for everyday consumption. When the catch answered all three
purposes, the hunt was considered especially successful.

bruce_g · Aug 31, 2007

Hi Maria,

I don't know if this is an official historical meaning, but the fish to me represent fertility and potential. An effort to purify ourselves can result in becoming sterile and devoid of creative potential.

57.4 has to do with diversity or multitasking. Rather than your staff being just a long, dry stick, it is more like Aron's rod, blooming as a living tree with many sprouts. "The indwelling of the Holy [Spirit] . . . in man brings about a Christification of many." (Carl Jung) Again, there is the idea of something living, giving creative potential. It's worth while to persevere in this.

Hope this helps.

magictortoise · Sep 1, 2007

If you read line two of 44 in the commentary of Wilhelm he states 'the fish likewise belongs to the yin principle.' In hexagram 44 this is in effect the solitary yin line at the beginning that through its subtleness, undermines the stronger yin; or comes to meet it in a spirit of union. The fish, then, has an ambivalent meaning. It can stand for Christ or it can represent the decaying aspect of evil. (BTW the Native Americans used fish to fertilize soil) It all depends on the question you are asking. When yin and yang meet all things on earth flourish, yet when we do not relate well to yin in ourselves or others there can be decay. Likewise, the melon in line five is a symbol of the yin principle, sweet but spoils easily.

With respect to the 'insignificant people' of line four it depends on the question and whom one assigns to represent 'people'. Could it be co-workers who must be tolerated or some small insignificant habit or thought pattern in oneself whose time has not yet come to be dispelled? In the commentary on four Wilhelm ammends: The misfortune inhering in the fact that there is no fish in the tank comes from his having kept aloof from the people. 'People' may mean the lower classes or servants. It could be ones body as servant which is under my guidance for proper nourishment, rest and exercise. It could be the soul who because of my 'aloofness' has not received the proper diet of impressions. Maybe as a Dad I haven't been spending enough time with my children. Or as a non-married person it might represent those talents and abilities which I am responsible for fostering and which can be thought of as my 'children'.

So you see it largely depends upon the question. I think, though, it is best to keep in mind the ambivalent character of images when studying the book. For example with respect to hexagram 1, one can be a creative progenitor or an arrogant dragon. It cuts both ways. The dragon, beneficent/ destructive.

Ken Wanamaker

ewald · Sep 1, 2007

The Chinese character that Wilhelm translates as "tank," in my view means "around" or "surrounding." Derived from this are meanings like "wrapping" (the wrapping is "around" something), or "surroundings." Wilhelm's "tank" is stretching this a bit too far, in my view, and seems incorrect.

The fish in 44.2 and 44.4 is "in the surroundings" or "around." It is available. In 44.2 it is said that this fish that is around doesn't necessarily need to be provided to guests. In 44.4, because there is no fish around, this lack of fish is a problem that gets worse when time passes.

Now the fan yao 57.4 makes perfect sense as an opposite: in 57.4 animals (for food probably) are hunted and acquired, in 44.4 the fish (for food) is not available.

bruce_g · Sep 1, 2007

Bradford translates it: The creel holds no fish.

hmesker · Sep 1, 2007

ewald said:
The Chinese character that Wilhelm translates as "tank," in my view means "around" or "surrounding." Derived from this are meanings like "wrapping" (the wrapping is "around" something), or "surroundings." Wilhelm's "tank" is stretching this a bit too far, in my view, and seems incorrect.

Speaking from a strictly translational point of view Wilhelm's translation is just as wrong as yours: bao 包 as a verb can mean 'to encircle, to surround', but as a noun it never has the meaning of 'surrounding'. The interesting thing is that bao only quite late began to have the meaning of 'bag' or a similar meaning, in the old days it almost only served as a verb, as in the 5th line of H44. 44-2 would become 'encircling, having fish', and 44-4 would be 'encircling, not having fish', or something similar. For interpretation purposes I think it is important to stress 'surrounding, encircling' as an act, not as a situation. It is something you do, not a situation you find yourself in.

Harmen.

ewald · Sep 1, 2007

hmesker said:
[...] in the old days it almost only served as a verb, as in the 5th line of H44. 44-2 would become 'encircling, having fish', and 44-4 would be 'encircling, not having fish', or something similar.

So, what does that mean?

hmesker · Sep 1, 2007

ewald said:
So, what does that mean?

I guess you want to see an interpretation? It can mean that closing in, keeping your space limited, stay focused, protect what you have, can be with (44-2) or without (44-4) result. Sometimes it is good to focus, sometimes it is not.

But this is just interpretation, and I am not really interested in that. I bao 包 accurate translations

.

Harmen.

ewald · Sep 1, 2007

hmesker said:
But this is just interpretation, and I am not really interested in that.

That's a pretty essential difference in view we have:
For me, the interpretation is an integral part of the translation. If the interpretation doesn't make sense or doesn't have inner consistency, I dismiss the translation.

Your interpretation options don't make sense to me.

bruce_g · Sep 1, 2007

ewald said:
That's a pretty essential difference in view we have:
For me, the interpretation is an integral part of the translation. If the interpretation doesn't make sense or doesn't have inner consistency, I dismiss the translation.

Your interpretation options don't make sense to me.

Funny, all these translations and accompanying interpretations seem to say basically the same thing, to me. Whether the fish is literally food or creative potential, it is missing in line 4.

And, what difference does it really make if the fish is missing from a tank, a creel or a wrapper?

ewald · Sep 1, 2007

bruce_g said:
Funny, all these translations and accompanying interpretations seem to say basically the same thing, to me. Whether the fish is literally food or creative potential, it is missing in line 4.

I don't think anyone disagrees about that.

And, what difference does it really make if the fish is missing from a tank, a creel or a wrapper?

Not much indeed. I have neither of them in my translation, as they don't really make for a clear text (in my view). These suggest that the act of fishing or having the fish wrapped up is somehow significant, while in my view the availability is what matters. Therefor I chose to use "surroundings" in my translation (which I may change to "around," which is perhaps even clearer).

hmesker · Sep 1, 2007

ewald said:
That's a pretty essential difference in view we have:
For me, the interpretation is an integral part of the translation. If the interpretation doesn't make sense or doesn't have inner consistency, I dismiss the translation.

We will always disagree on this; you are more focussed on interpretation, while I focus (to the best of my abilities) on translation. It's the intention that creates the translation/interpretation.

Your interpretation options don't make sense to me.

Of course my interpretation doesn't make sense to you; you have an entirely different view of this text. My interpretation just doesn't fit your view.

Harmen.

hmesker · Sep 1, 2007

bruce_g said:
And, what difference does it really make if the fish is missing from a tank, a creel or a wrapper?

Not much. But the point I tried to make in my insignificant message was that at 44-2 and 44-4 we are not dealing with an object but with an action, something you do. It is not a fixed situation, but a potential, which you are or are not able to fulfil. The text might tell how you are acting now, or how you should act. The stress is here on 'encircling' as something you do, whatever that may mean to you.

Harmen.

heylise · Sep 1, 2007

Bao, from bāo 'wrap' and sì 'fetus'. "The fetus wrapped in the womb" --Wieger.

No idea if this is right. But it seems very much to fit in the meanings of 44.

LiSe

RindaR · Sep 1, 2007

So a time of protecting, encircling something that is growing (an unrealized potential that is starting to take shape) inside one's life/body...

hmesker · Sep 1, 2007

heylise said:
Bao, from bāo 'wrap' and sì 'fetus'. "The fetus wrapped in the womb" --Wieger.

No idea if this is right.

Well, the oldest source for this is the Shuowen, which says that 已 is in the middle and that it depicts an unborn child. We do not find bao on oracle bones or on bronze inscriptions, which makes every story about its origin a wild guess (I do not mean to say that every answer is to be found in these inscriptions, but they can help to find a character's possible predecessor).

Harmen.

Trojina · Sep 1, 2007

these meanings are very different. No fish is not the same as fish encircled or foetus encircled - the idea i thought was of lack, not of something growing as in a womb.

Right so if its something you do not a state of being, you do the encircling of what there is a lack of - like an empty womb - which is the same as no fish in the bag.

You are not encircling something you have/possess or are developing are you -since i thought the point was lack ?

hmesker · Sep 1, 2007

trojan said:
these meanings are very different. No fish is not the same as fish encircled or foetus encircled - the idea i thought was of lack, not of something growing as in a womb.

You are mixing up 'meaning' with 'description'. The meaning is 'surround', encircle', the description of the character is that of a foetus in a womb (a description which can be disputed).

You are not encircling something you have/possess or are developing are you -since i thought the point was lack ?

I have no idea what there could be 'lacking' . (Beware. Speculation coming up) 包有/無魚 could describe a fishing technique where a group of men is standing very quietly in shallow water, in a circle, with spears, waiting for fish to enter the circle. In normal situations this will do, but it is not good for guests (不利賓) and their entertainment. They require a more elaborate and exciting form of hunting. (end of speculation)

Harmen.

bradford · Sep 1, 2007

I think you guys would have a lot less trouble understanding this if you would keep the line interpretations in line with the overall gua context, and also try to understand why and that fish is a euphemism for young women and erotic relationships with them. Even so, this remains only a metaphor in its own turn for the need to exercise proper restraint.
Again, 1n 44.4 this has been taken too far - there is no longer a fish in hand to resist (from having been too antisocial (yuan min) according to the xiao xiang. The misfortune (xiong) of this finally begins to dawn (qi3) on our poor subject.

maremaria · Sep 2, 2007

Hi,
This is a first, unfiltered attempt to understand 44.4 . before receiving your insights. I write it without correcting it after reading your answer.

No fish in the tank . The tank is empty . Emptiness . A gap . Something unsatisfied ? A unsatisfied need ? Why unsatisfied ? Because probably one choose not to fulfill the need, the gap. One put it in the “insignificant needs” list ?

Brad speaks for an empty room were nothing inside shows something alive and the man living in this room is alone. He should be happy because “he has what he asks for” a room with a roof but its seems he isn’t . he seems disappointed. Why ? He didn’t make the right choice or in order to achieve his significant goal the “room” he choose not to pay attention to the “insignificant’ details e.g. the chairs , the candles, the fireplace etc.

And the one with the empty tank. He just wanted a tank for the fish. He concentrated how to acquire that tank and “forgot” that a tank only has value if one has fishes to put in it.

Is this about choosing to spend our energy, time etc to something we consider valuable so we decide to neglect all the “valueless” things and when we achieve our goal we realize that all the “valueless” things we neglected, scarified was the ones that give value to our tank . Is that the source of misfortune, disappointment and pitfall the various interpretations describe?

Maybe the 57.4 describes how to correct it .Re-evaluate the conditions, the goals and our perception on what is significant and what is not ? What is valuable and what not? Having a animal to offer to the gods is as important as having a animal for food?

p.s. no able to post it sooner

maremaria · Sep 2, 2007

Part II

Thanks everybody for your insights. It’s much more clear to me now.

Bruce, it helped me a lot what you said (except from the Jung part but I keep trying to find more about it).
Maybe a fish could be a grain of sand, a piece of coal.
Carbon and sand are considered to be valueless
Pearls and diamonds on the other hand are valuable
A pearl is formed in a grain of sand and a diamond in other words is a piece of coal(carbon)
Sometimes carbon and sand have a potential to become something valuable
But in 44.4 somehow we cancel it.

Ken, thank you too. I also looked up about the Ichthys.(fish in Greek) word . The a letter in Greek alphabet looks like a fish. Alpha is a Beginning. About the “ insignificant people” ,I think you are right , it make sense to me. The woman haw the power to nourish the fetus, to give life to it but in 44.4 the fetus is missing. We don’t allow it to enter and grown up.
Do you thing the word “insignificant” Wilhelm use it in a ironic way.? It seems to me like he is saying your tank is empty or your life is empty. Go and check again the things you consider as insignificant?

Ewald, I’m a little bit confused here. The tank is empty because there are not available fish around us (outside the tank) or because we don’t let the available but insignificant fish to enter our tank. ?

Harmen, you said about line 4 “ it is something you do , not a situation you find your self in”. My interpretation was based on the assumption that line 4 is about choices and decisions. Is that the reason makes you say line 4 is about the results of a certain behavior and not a situation?

ps. again arriving late

hmesker · Sep 2, 2007

maremaria said:
Harmen, you said about line 4 “ it is something you do , not a situation you find your self in”. My interpretation was based on the assumption that line 4 is about choices and decisions. Is that the reason makes you say line 4 is about the results of a certain behavior and not a situation?

No, my view was only based on the fact that the character bao 包 is a verb, not a noun or an object. A verb is an action, something you do. In line 4 of 44 it could signify that 'encircle, surround' as an act does not give the result that is hoped for or that is expected.

Harmen.

maremaria · Sep 2, 2007

real time post !!!

heylise said:
Bao, from bāo 'wrap' and sì 'fetus'. "The fetus wrapped in the womb" --Wieger.

No idea if this is right. But it seems very much to fit in the meanings of 44.

LiSe

No fetus in the womb makes sence to me. I'm not 100 % sure if I'm right but is our choice that allow the fetus enter in the womb. We have the space, the tank, etc. but we put the restrains. Don't know if that make sence ?

bradford said:
I think you guys would have a lot less trouble understanding this if you would keep the line interpretations in line with the overall gua context, and also try to understand why and that fish is a euphemism for young women and erotic relationships with them. Even so, this remains only a metaphor in its own turn for the need to exercise proper restraint.
Again, 1n 44.4 this has been taken too far - there is no longer a fish in hand to resist (from having been too antisocial (yuan min) according to the xiao xiang. The misfortune (xiong) of this finally begins to dawn (qi3) on our poor subject.

Is about how we allocate our resources and how we assign or weight values ? Is about the limits we put to ourselfs. Is about our desision To suppress or restrain actions,thoughts, emotions, consciously or unconsciously because we think that they migth hold us back in order to achieve "something" else ? we close our eyes to "temptetions" that migth be destraction. Is about focusing on the wrong things or not paying attetion to the whole image?

maremaria · Sep 2, 2007

hmesker said:
No, my view was only based on the fact that the character bao 包 is a verb, not a noun or an object. A verb is an action, something you do. In line 4 of 44 it could signify that 'encircle, surround' as an act does not give the result that is hoped for or that is expected.

Harmen.

Thanks for clarifying Harmen.

Another questions . Is always line 4 about choices and desicions. I mean it is safe to trying to find this aspect when we get a line 4 or it depends on the hexagram ?
Maria

bruce_g · Sep 2, 2007

I like your ponderings on this, Maria.

This is a gross over-simplification, but on a practical level I've found that line 4 can sometimes be resolved through physical activity - a counter to the paralysis of analysis. Taking a nature walk, playing music, dancing, singing, shaking your booty, flirting, etc. It gets the body juices flowing and the fishies swimming. This can serve unblock obstructions and stimulate open and clear thinking. But too much of this can have the reverse effect - dulling or preoccupying the mind with sensuality. It's a question of balance, I believe.

bruce_g · Sep 2, 2007

There's so many pictures this hexagram creates in my head, particularly when I focus on the trigrams. Here you have heaven above - the most powerful force in the universe - and below is the eldest living woman: Wind: the proverbial Eve. So immediately it puts me in the garden of Eden. God, Adam, Eve, Serpent, Tree of Knowledge, and Tree of Life.

Here, man and woman are faced with eternal decisions to make. Do they remain in Paradise, with no temptations? Nothing which their hearts desire can not be enjoyed - albeit for one: the Tree of Knowledge; that they may know good and evil, up and down, black and white; and to also discover their own nakedness. Guilt, shame, all those heavy burdens, which comes through living a dual existence. This is what the Hindus call Maya.

Religion today is still trying to deal with the paradox of being human. Buddhism seeks to resolve the problem through raising consciousness above the cyclical world. Christianity seeks to resolve the problem by pitting God against the Devil. Taoism seeks to work with duality, eventually mastering it, and thereby living harmoniously with it.

So, it's up to the individual how to live with knowledge. But if there's no fish in the reservoir, you can give up your laughter along with your tears.

heylise · Sep 2, 2007

According to Wenlin, bāo: wrap, surround; encircle; envelop, undertake the whole thing, assure; guarantee, bundle; package, bag; sack, protuberance; swelling, Surname, include; contain

Harmen, how come you say it is only verb? Would like to know.

LiSe

hmesker · Sep 2, 2007

heylise said:
According to Wenlin, bāo: wrap, surround; encircle; envelop, undertake the whole thing, assure; guarantee, bundle; package, bag; sack, protuberance; swelling, Surname, include; contain

Harmen, how come you say it is only verb? Would like to know.

Quite simply put: because my dictionaries say so. But Wenlin is a too modern dictionary for translating the Yi, I never use it for translating old texts. This is probably way over the top for this topic, but let me show you what the Hanyu Da Cidian dictionary gives as meanings for bao. Keep in mind that the further you read in the list of meanings, the younger most meanings get (not always, but for the most this is true). This list even shows that I am wrong with translating bao as 'surround, encircle', because the earliest instance of this meaning (no. 7 in the list) is found in a text from Tang Dynasty. Nevertheless, as you will see, the oldest meanings are almost all verbs:

1.裹。 to bind, wrap
2.包容；包含。 to contain, hold, include
3.包取，囊括。 to take, embrace
4.總括。 to sum up
5.隱藏；掩蓋。 to hide, cover, conceal
6.指隱藏的奸詐。 refers to hidden treachery
7.包圍；圍繞。 to surround, encircle
8.保證，擔保。 to pledge, guarantee
9.承擔。 to bear, undertake
10.包賠。 to guarantee to pay compensation
11.約定專用。 to agree with special usage (of something)
12.指包裹起來的東西。 refers to things that are tied up in a bundle/package
13.果實。 fruit
14.物體或身體上鼓起來的疙瘩。 swellings on bodies or objects
15.裝東西的袋子。 sack or bag for loading things
16.量詞。多用於成包的東西。 measure word, mostly just for things that are wrapped up
17.通“ 苞 ”。叢生，茂密。 Same as 苞, dense, thick
18.通“ 苞 ”。花苞。 Same as 苞, bud
19.姓。 Family name

In other pronounciations:
1.通“ 庖 ”。廚房。《易‧姤》：“包有魚，無咎，不利賓。” 陸德明釋文：“包，本亦作‘庖’。”Same as 庖, kitchen. (rest is text from H44-2). <----- nice one.
2.通“ 匏 ”。Same as 匏, a kind of bitter gourd

'Bind up, wrap up' is the oldest meaning.

Harmen.

RindaR · Sep 3, 2007

Kwan Yin is often shown holding a gourd - symbol of fruitfulness / fertility, I think...

frank_r · Sep 3, 2007

bruce_g said:
There's so many pictures this hexagram creates in my head, particularly when I focus on the trigrams. Here you have heaven above - the most powerful force in the universe - and below is the eldest living woman: Wind: the proverbial Eve..

A nice take on 44,like that one. But it's also the relation between the father and the eldest daughter.
On trigram is metal and the other is wood. The inside the daughter and the outside the father. Feelings on the outside and the continuaty of growht on the inside.
And a changing line on the 4 the line of the heart.
Like the father who is giving the fertility to the daughter. As being the idea that the daughter is the dream of the father and especially the eldest one as being the only daughter who is female on earth and in heaven.

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