where's the real talent?

dobro p · May 1, 2008

I'd like to know why most of the people who *really* know the Yi don't offer their insights in the Shared Readings forum. Yes it's a bit...uh...shallow...but it has its uses sometimes. I mean, readers like Willowfox and me are gatekeepers basically (hope I don't offend, WF) and we offer these sturdy little readings with few frills and not a ton of depth if you look closely lol.

Here are some possible reasons I see why the people who don't interpret there don't interpret there:

* it's boring

* it's immoral

* it's dicey

* it's low class

* they're too smart for that sort of stuff

* they're shy

hilary · May 1, 2008

I rarely interpret there, for a couple of reasons:

I'm very short of time, and I'm no good at quick readings
I almost never see a thread that hasn't been responded to already, and very well. My perspective certainly isn't needed, and I'm not sure it'd be helpful - blurring the image, many cooks, etc.
Also, my first contribution might be to say, 'Try asking about your own choices instead' or 'Try asking him in person instead' - and that does get boring.

Showing up there more is on my list of things I want to find time for, though. (I'd call it a list of things to do, but that would be over-ambitious.)

lindsay · May 1, 2008

Dobro -

Why aren't good music critics also the best performers? They know everything about music and musicians. They are experts, everyone agrees. But put a violin or guitar in their hands, and what happens?

Like the Master said: "He who knows how, does it. He who does not know how, teaches others. It's a different skill-set, dude."

meng · May 1, 2008

What is one raindrop in a rainstorm? It all goes down the same drain.

Sparhawk · May 1, 2008

dobro said:
I'd like to know why most of the people who *really* know the Yi don't offer their insights in the Shared Readings forum. Yes it's a bit...uh...shallow...but it has its uses sometimes. I mean, readers like Willowfox and me are gatekeepers basically (hope I don't offend, WF) and we offer these sturdy little readings with few frills and not a ton of depth if you look closely lol.

Perhaps because, in reality, it is never about the querent with a very real concern but about the display of knowledge each of "diviners" have, resulting in posturing arguments among them, something that has the very real danger of not only confusing the querent but worst yet, of the querent selecting only the interpretation that best suits his/her state of mind at the moment, usually the one interpretation that has the most positive overtone to it. It shouldn't be the diviner(s) that speaks to the querent but the oracle.

mudpie · May 1, 2008

knowledge and teaching are not always related...........the most knowledgeable person in the world can be clueless as to how to teach another in words that are on the level of the student.

teaching is being able to present information in a way that canbe grasped. being knowledgeable really helps. but knowledge alone does not make a worthy teacher. too much knowledge can actually be a hindrance

and I personally think some of the interpreters of late have been excellent, and I dont know why you would refer to them as not the "real Talent"? ..

hilary · May 1, 2008

listener said:
...and I personally think some of the interpreters of late have been excellent, and I dont know why you would refer to them as not the "real Talent"? ..

Ditto, ditto, ditto. What Listener said.

maremaria · May 1, 2008

What " real talent " means ?

meng · May 1, 2008

It's a real circus.

sparhawk said:
Perhaps because, in reality, it is never about the querent with a very real concern but about the display of knowledge each of "diviners" have, resulting in posturing arguments among them, something that has the very real danger of not only confusing the querent but worst yet, of the querent selecting only the interpretation that best suits his/her state of mind at the moment, usually the one interpretation that has the most positive overtone to it. It shouldn't be the diviner(s) that speaks to the querent but the oracle.

Yes, sir. I'd guess maybe 1 out of 10 walks away with a clear sense of what to make of the multiple answers, and 1 out of 100 would actually use the answer to make a more informed decision, 1 out of 200 actually change themselves, and 1 out of 1,000 takes up an ongoing development with the Yi. That's a lot of fish to feed to find one fisherman. I know there's a Jesus feeds the multitude metaphor in here somewhere, but then Jesus wasn't competing with the multitude to feed a few hungry bellies. That would have changed the story considerably, me thinks.

Sparhawk · May 1, 2008

maremaria said:
What " real talent " means ?

To smoke under water??

maremaria · May 1, 2008

Luis you said "It shouldn't be the diviner(s) that speaks to the querent but the oracle" and I agree. But when the querent is a beginer then it needs not just a diviner but a "real talent" . Is there such a thing and if yes which are its characteristics ?

sergio · May 1, 2008

It is akso a personal path to walk,of understanding and knowledge.the answer(or the symbols) from the Oracle is supposed,IMHO,to awaken certain thinkg in your mind that only you as the querent will understand.Somebody from "the outside"can give you certain hints but ultimately is up to YOU to figure the answer,to have that AHA! moments that will cement your relationship with the Yi and make you trust the advise and guidance and make you come back for more if you need it some other time.If that is not there then somebody tells you what you want(or not) and then that's it.The search is over.But if you don't understand you keep on practising and studying until finally you are more proficient with the"instrument".Like in music, you could be studying with the best teacher in the world but it means nothing if you never pick the instrument up and practice and play.Like Confucius said" I will teach you 80% ,the rest you have to figure it out on your own",otherwise it is not working properly for you.
Sergio

Sparhawk · May 1, 2008

maremaria said:
Luis you said "It shouldn't be the diviner(s) that speaks to the querent but the oracle" and I agree. But when the querent is a beginer then it needs not just a diviner but a "real talent" . Is there such a thing and if yes which are its characteristics ?

The point is that divination is not carried out by committee but one-on-one. The beginner, by the sheer weight of that adjective on their shoulders, has no way to know who the "real talent" is and will resonate with those that are akin to their personality and situation. Divination should not be publicly open; more the the sake of the querent than for the egos of the individual diviners.

maremaria · May 1, 2008

That make sense . Thanks

Now another question How can we smoke under water??

(joking . no need to answer :rofl:

)

Sparhawk · May 1, 2008

Sorry, that's one talent I don't have. Never smoked... I master my other vices though... :rofl:

lindsay · May 1, 2008

I think I’ve asked this question before, but I really wonder how much people here tend to divine for others versus reading for themselves?

Personally, I think reading for others and reading for oneself are two entirely different things. I find I am only interested in reading for myself. Reading for myself is a personal experience, like praying or meditating. No one can do for me what I do for myself in a reading.

When I read for myself, there are no right or wrong answers, no good or bad interpretations, no smart or dumb performances. Reading for myself is like using sonar in a submarine. I send out pings, and some of them connect with something, and sometimes they outline a definable shape I could not have seen otherwise.

Sometimes I am pinging the future, sometimes my psyche, sometimes a specific circumstance or problem, sometimes the universe at large. Half the time I don’t know exactly what is going on, but I hope it will be clear when the right moment arrives. If it ever does. At least I am awake and aware. Alive to the world. That alone is a great gift.

fkegan · May 1, 2008

sparhawk said:
The point is that divination is not carried out by committee but one-on-one. The beginner, by the sheer weight of that adjective on their shoulders, has no way to know who the "real talent" is and will resonate with those that are akin to their personality and situation. Divination should not be publicly open; more the the sake of the querent than for the egos of the individual diviners.

Hi Luis,
Your comment points out a great avenue to promote Hilary's business model. Free, open, committee shared readings with a footer saying " Want an in depth, private, personal, compassionate reading and I Ching learning experience--click her to hire Hilary."

Back in the day I did Yi or horoscope (or both combined in X-Ray Eye charts) in groups. They have a different energy and mood to them though folks enjoy it all alot--sort of like skinny dipping. When I did individual readings on paper, folks didn't like answering their friends inquiries into what their natal poetry was, felt it was too personal to expose.

I have found the shared readings experience has its ups and its downs. When someone, at any level shares their actual question and finds insight from the reading, even if there is a range of them that is certainly a good thing. When someone asks one question, but in response to the reading comes back with a totally different set of concerns--like I asked about hex X.a but my real oracle was hex.a,b,c and my real issue is does he really care about me even though he ignores me whenever we happen to interact at work... that is a minus.

Lindsay,

My experience is that reading for others is all about the three-way relationship of the querent, the Yi, and me. When I read for myself it is clearly the Yi spirit relating to me and telling me stuff--sometimes very supportive, sometimes deeply insightful, and often just having fun at my expense.

Frank

dobro p · May 1, 2008

Okay, I've read the responses in this thread, and although I'd like to respond individually to about six people in it, I won't, cuz I want to stay on track here.

I think that in addition to the service Frank suggests (which is pretty much already available - perhaps it just needs highlighting: "Still confused after using the public forum? Want to get a deep, more personalized reading from an experienced reader? Pay here.") what we could use here is some Reader Training. I understand the downsides that Sparhawk and Meng mention, but with a bit of training, it doesn't have to be that way. Here are some rules of thumb for readers:

* The reading is about the querent, not about the reader. (So if you have an issue with men, don't project that onto the querent's situation lol.)

* Support the querent, don't attack or criticize or demean the querent.

* Make your suggestions gently, not like a hammer coming down on the head. (Not: "Get a life. Dump the jerk!")

* Learn the lingo. Try 'the Yi seems to be saying...' rather than 'there's no doubt in the world that...'

* Encourage the querent to ask themselves more useful questions. ("You're wanting to know what's going on in your boyfriend's mind. How about asking about how best to deal with the situation?")

* Encourage the querent to learn how to use the Yi for themself, and not rely on online reradings. (This the real gold.)

Hilary probably has all this stuff in a blogfile or something somewhere on the site. But as an organized course, it would be useful I think. Now maybe this post looks like a digression from the thread of the thread, but if more people had just the basic training in online counselling, they could be useful readers in that forum. And if THAT were the case, then perhaps more knowledgeable people would offer their knowledge.

I'd add to that list above, but in my own readings for others, the emphasis has shifted over the years. These days, I'm looking at the Yi reading AND the counselling aspect of the reading. Sometimes I focus more on the reading, sometimes more on the counselling aspect (rare, but it happens). Basically, I think it comes down to a caring focus on the querent.

hilary · May 1, 2008

Hilary probably has all this stuff in a blogfile or something somewhere on the site.

Actually, she doesn't. She has a note in a laughably-named 'organiser program' somewhere saying that a course in divining for others would be a good thing to create. I suggest writing your own instead of waiting for this.

One to add to your list:

Yi asks questions as well as answering them. You can encourage the sense that divination's a dialogue by putting those questions into words. (27: 'What are your real needs here, do you think? How might they be influencing your actions?' 7: 'What's your objective?' 'That changing line suggests you're in the position of a ruler. How is that true?' ... etc, etc...)

linerider · May 1, 2008

Sometimes the questions posed are so sad, and pitiful that all I want to write is 'hang in there, you are loved.'
I want them to have a physical human being to talk to for advice, rather than an oracle book they don't understand and online forums where there are humans but they are so distant.

lindsay · May 1, 2008

This business of counselling through the Yi bothers me. I understand why Carl Jung and his followers turned to the Yi in certain cases, but Jung was a psychiatrist - he had an MD, years of work in psychiatric hospitals, and contact with all the best minds in psychology in his day.

Even today psychiatrists and psychologists undergo very rigorous training and analysis before going into practice. Most therapists are required to be have reputable credentials and be licensed by the government.

The only person like a Yi "counsellor" I can think of is a priest or minister or pastor or rabbi, who do in fact counsel people, but receive training in pastoral care and operate within a strict set of religious guidelines.

Nothing like that exists for the Yi-based counselling. By what authority does the diviner give advice to the querent? 90% of reading the Yi is personal interpretation. The Yi almost never answers any question unambiguously. How are we to judge a diviner's fitness? How do we know they have a stable and effective grasp of reality? What qualifications can they show that they know what they are doing when they take people's lives in their hands?

Sure, you can say caveat emptor. But the whole point of a confidence scam is that the trickster wins people's confidence. That's not too hard to do when they are in distress. I think there are some extremely serious ethical issues involved in reading for others AS A COUNSELLOR, especially for money, and I challenge you to confront them.

lindsay · May 1, 2008

OK, that's too strong. I am not going to challenge anybody to do anything. I don't care enough. But I still can honestly say some styles of divination make me very nervous, just like the shelves upon shelves of natural "remedies" at my local natural food store make me nervous. I like reason, but most of all I like evidence. I am a pragmatist. Show me results. Proof. Anecdotes are not good enough.

dobro p · May 1, 2008

Well, the 'advice' forum here has the disclaimer at the top of the page, right? And this sort of thing goes on all the time on the internet - people ask others for advice about reading their horoscopes, their tarot cards, etc. Anybody's free to ask, and anybody's free to offer their ideas. So I don't have any moral qualms per se about it technically. But I suppose that beyond the technicality, we have a moral obligation here to protect really stupid people from themselves TO SOME EXTENT, although to what extent you can protect a really determinedly stupid person from themself, I'm not sure.

I have no way of providing the proof that you ask about. But if you spend any time at all in the 'advice' forum here, I think you'll conclude a few things about the tenor of support and advice given:

* It's almost always well-meant and supportive of the querent.

* It's often contradictory as hell.

* It could be better. It would be better if readers just followed a few guidelines.

Sparhawk · May 1, 2008

dobro said:
But I suppose that beyond the technicality, we have a moral obligation here to protect really stupid people from themselves TO SOME EXTENT, although to what extent you can protect a really determinedly stupid person from themself, I'm not sure.

Some may need protection from the diviner du jour. Some of them sound like they chew nails and spit rivets... :rofl:

lindsay · May 1, 2008

Yes, Dobro, what you say does feel reassuring to me. I know you are right - but something about this whole issue still bothers me. I know it's been kicked around many times before, always with good outcomes. Maybe I'm just in a bad mood.

Sparhawk · May 1, 2008

lindsay said:
Maybe I'm just in a bad mood.

Perhaps a detour on the way home...

fkegan · May 1, 2008

line_rider said:
Sometimes the questions posed are so sad, and pitiful that all I want to write is 'hang in there, you are loved.'
I want them to have a physical human being to talk to for advice, rather than an oracle book they don't understand and online forums where there are humans but they are so distant.

Hi Line Rider,
That is a useful open forum reading too. Sometimes folks with so totally sad stories really need to hear others care, especially if the objective reality is even sadder in the developing future.

Lindsay,

Your faith in psych folks is cute, but generally misplaced. Freudians are worse than Confucians and Freud was a writer of fiction not a real scientist or doctor. Jung and Freud battled mostly over their improper relationships, and by the time I got to work on my doctorate in psychology metanalysis had shown none of the great theories had any validity at all.

All one has is the good will and noble intent of a counselor, and the Yi is a fine mediating influence. It manages to find the oracle that works for any situation even if mere mortals are counseling other mere mortals. OTOH, how can you be sure, given your qualms that you aren't doing to yourself with your self-counseling all the bad things you fear for counseling by others. Folks tend to do bad stuff to themselves at least as much as they do to anyone else. That is one of the advantages of shared readings forum, other folks can add their moderating influences to other's imperfects (and vice versa).

Overall, I agree with Luis, rather than keep yourself so nervous about all this stuff, visit Mama San and get the hex 40 oracle solution.

Dobro,

I would only disagree with your original listing of reading training insofar as the openness of the shared readings is harnessed to Hilary's business model. With a suitable banner or link to buy quiet, compassionate service that would make the general hubbub of the open forum part of a long range marketing goal, and therefore it would be important that along with some decent oracle interpretation there also be a bit of tweaking between oracle buff and towards those asking weird questions to encourage them to buy more considerate treatment. It all comes down to the ultimate business model and long range profit goals...

Frank

maremaria · May 1, 2008

I think, Linsday has a point here and a valid one, imo.

To counsel someone is a very delicate and one should be aware of the consequences . Even psychologists or priest do make mistakes although they considered experts

I am quite doubtful about the qualities and the motives of the people offering Help using Yi, Tarrot etc. There is a big industry, a profitable one, based on one simple need. To be helped, to talk to someone and be heard from someone. There was a research in my country about those “counsellor”. Terrible thing take place there. Unsuspicious people or naïve or helpless or… many other things that make them vulnerable and easy to be used in the most unethical way. Unfortunely there is a demand thus there is a supply. But this is a big issue .
Yet, there is a part of clients of those “counsellors” who knows what is going on but they still make calls and pay not to get a prediction but just to talk to someone.

And what about of the rest of the counsellor we have in our life: Parents, teachers’ friends ? Are they competent enough? Imo No. Hex 18 says a lot about them and better than I could say.

There are ethical and unethical counsellors, everywhere ,of any kind. There are laws that can protect us from some of them but not from all.

So what we can do ? If we have a good compass we may be able to make the right decision who/what to trust. If we have a defected one we might make the wrong ones.
And after all we are the decision-makers and they are just counsellor. The biggest part of responsibility is ours.(… damn!!!)

dobro p · May 1, 2008

maremaria said:
What " real talent " means ?

Better than mine. My readings are pretty mechanical, although I'm starting to speak to the person more than to the question these days.

Trojina · May 1, 2008

Do you see yourself as 'giving readings ' Dobro ? I never do. I only see myself as sharing some thoughts that i have about the reading and I never think to rate my own perfomance either - no more than i would than if were sharing my thoughts with a friend. Thats the point of the shared readings area isn't it sharing ones ideas with friends. Its not a performance.

where's the real talent?

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