Ceaselessy active

Tohpol · Jun 5, 2008

How do you Yingers see 1.3?

Is it just striving ceaselessly and being a bit obsessive? Or is it being too focused on something else and missing out on what's going on around you? I suppose that could include both: Frittering away new creative energy into an ill thought out enterprise.

The Creative is such a blockbuster hex I'm wondering if there isn't anything more to this line than that.

Any experience of this line recently?

Topal

rosada · Jun 5, 2008

Because The Creative - Conscious, comes before The Receptive - Subconscious, I see 1.3 as a situation that is so new that there is no previous experience, nothing in the subconscious to refer to. There is a feeling here of having to consciously cover every possible contingency in a situation.
Recently my brother in law came to visit along with his family and their kids. He didn't know what we had or didn't have up here so along with food he brought pots, pans, tents, towels, etc. etc.! He'd thought of everything and while we didn't use it all it was great to know we were so well stocked we could do whatever we wanted - thus lifting us to 1.4, the line of feeling free to move in any direction.

willowfox · Jun 5, 2008

Sounds like a rock musician going from obscurity to fame with the path full of temptations, drugs, alcohol etc, where only a few come out squeaky clean, like Cliff Richard, the Beatles, Elton John and the rest are destroyed by fame and fortune.

dobro p · Jun 5, 2008

The ceaselessly active bit comes from the yang line being SURROUNDED by loads of other yangs. I don't see this as being *obsessive* activity necessarily, especially because it's Hex 1 we're talking about, and that Creative energy in Hex 1 always seems to be at least a bit divinely inspired. When Hex 1 is involved, you might be 'in the grip of creativity' but I wouldn't describe it as obsessive, cuz obsessiveness sort of suggests something lower level, something more neurotic. No?

Anyway, the wariness that 1.3 talks about comes from the relating hex, I think - 10 always suggests 'watch your step' and the fan yao, which is the line where the tiger bites the guy.

And is there is an empirical connection between ceaseless activity and danger? Well, you might argue that because the super activity of 1.3 is obsessive, there's cause for concern that a situation of imbalance might have been created lol. Whatcha think?

Trojina · Jun 5, 2008

topal said:
How do you Yingers see 1.3?

Is it just striving ceaselessly and being a bit obsessive? Or is it being too focused on something else and missing out on what's going on around you? I suppose that could include both: Frittering away new creative energy into an ill thought out enterprise.

The Creative is such a blockbuster hex I'm wondering if there isn't anything more to this line than that.

Any experience of this line recently?

Topal

I reckon hex 1 like all the others its multi multi layered... ask a mundane question hex 1 can give you a mundane answer as good as the rest of em

ask a more profound question hex 1 can do profound too...

But FWIW I do think there is an element of anxiety in 1.3, maybe anxiety is too negative a word but with the fan yao 10.3 there is over confidence, bravado, taking things for granted, not really processing or understanding ...the reverse of this in 1.3 is someone doing the opposite..assuming nothing, working very hard, even in the night when sleeping this creativity is going on. Makes me think of a busy mind processing during a very creative phase, intense dreaming maybe, waking up at 3am full of ideas. Thats what i associate it with anyway. Can be rather intense but phases like that don't last forever just while somethings going on - creativity does keep people awake - don't ask me where i get that fact from lol.

I've found i think that 1.3 just shows a time where somethings presented or arises that brings a psychic reshuffle that translates into a kind of fevered activity level while its working its way out/through in to manifestation

Suppose it could mean missing whats going on a round you, never thought of it like that before. I don't see any hint (without benefit of Chinese of course) that all this activity is misplaced though, although i can see how it could feel very much like neuroses. Perhaps evenif the actual activities are somewhat frittering energy its just cos the energy needs 'frittering' to get moving ?

jesed · Jun 6, 2008

Just in case the comment could be useful

You better accomplish all your tasks with diligence (1.3), or you boss could fire you (10.3) I told this to one friend of mine.

She said: "no, i think it is a warning against be too obsessive with my work; the tiger is my obsession"

Unfortunatelly, she got fired

bradford · Jun 6, 2008

jun zi zhong ri qian qian

young noble ends day creating, creating

Yes, it's the obsessive diligence of following a higher purpose,
working in the flow, probably not even very self aware until
the exhaustion creeps up on him.
ceaselessly active is not a very literal translation - that's actually
closer to translating the jian in the Da Xiang.

meng · Jun 6, 2008

Some observations I've made about the creative:

It has no idea of relative time, other than using time to accomplish its aims.

It knows nothing of manners, courtesy, being polite - that sort of stuff.

If you make a place for it to become active, creativity will eventually come. And if you make a place for it to become hyperactive, it will have no qualm about using your last living breath to continue its activity. In fact, I've reason to believe it doesn't even know that it exhausts you.

I've always wrestled between the creative and my need for sleep. To this day, sleeping more than 3 or 4 hours at a clip is difficult and very rare. Once, I had three weeks (or so) of only a couple hours of sleep a night (no, it wasn't due to drugs). I was going crazy for lack of sleep. Then one night a child, hardly more than an infant, appeared next to me. It had no arms or legs - just an unending supply of active energy. I calmly explained to the child that, though he never slept, we mortals must get enough sleep or else we will go mad, and possibly die of exhaustion. The nights which followed were calm, and I was able to get some desperately needed sleep.

Tohpol · Jun 6, 2008

Ok, I’ve distilled these useful replies into a summary as I see it:

Being meticulous, fresh, diligent yet with a possibility for becoming obsessive …

Diligence and hardwork with some awareness of the higher principles that govern…

Tirelessly working towards a goal, “passionate” about the objective due to the awareness of higher principles…

Creativity being expressed on a see-saw of tension and which is symptomatic of a new way, a manifesting of a new awareness being applied. Stress can be present or nervous even excitable activity but not necessarily out of balance.

Being aware of what is important – don’t start something else before you’ve finished your present responsibilities. Do it well and do it properly which leads one to be aware exactly how that creativity is being channeled. And being focused and diligent on the right way.

Working and using creativity intensely, obsessively and with a higher purpose as the lodestar but with a danger that you could miss the point of the whole thing. Exhaustion can then cause reflection.

Creativity is what it is – unsullied by human conceptions – it comes, it goes. Dependent on personality mind/body matrix as to how it is expressed. Therefore, when it comes and comes unimpeded one has to prepare and organise things accordingly otherwise the feeble human body mind can suffer the after effects of its firey presence.

Thanks all.

Topal

maremaria · Jun 6, 2008

topal said:
How do you Yingers see 1.3?

Any experience of this line recently?

Topal

Yes I think I have. Not as a result of tossing though.

There is a higher purpose to work towards and then the dragon takes the initiative to make it real. But somewhere in the process the dragon forgets his mortal nature. He doesn’t feed itself properly (he is immortal) , he doesn’t rest (he is immortal) and he can’t see the danger of his deeds. There is that “higher purpose» he has to accomplish Eating, resting is just a waste of time.

A warning of exhaustion passed unnoticed. After some time the dragon sees his energy vapor and he cannot understand why. (nope, he is not a stupid dragon just too much absorbed with his duties) . And then, warning #2. The dragon couldn’t function at all . Needless to say that creativity left him. As for the *higher purpose * some achievements were lost. The dragon is facing a dangerous situation. :duh:

What I don’t get in that line is the “no blame”. To what it refers ? Is about the dragon realizing the situation and fixing it or to something else ?

meng · Jun 6, 2008

I don't see this higher purpose as an attribute of the Creative. I can conceive of beings with greater understanding, more refined expression of energy, or an expanded field of consciousness. I can conceive of collective consciousness and even a Godhead, but higher purpose means what? What is higher, for example, than a mother giving birth? The Creative didn't do that on his own!

The Creative, as I see it, is amoral. Hitler had an overabundance of the Creative. Nietzsche probably did too.

heylise · Jun 6, 2008

Junzi complete day qian qian nightfall awe like adversity without fault.
I did not translate qian, because the name of hex. 1 is not easy. It means drought, a very literal meaning, but with a slightly different pronunciation. “Qian” is an image of the sun at dawn and banners (or maybe vegetation) and vapor: daytime. Its ‘meaning’ is: name of hex. 1, not a word which is in use in other ways. So translating it as creative or heaven or father feels very much like a circular argument. It has a lot to do with the sun and the rain, the most important features of heaven for farmers. The dragon is the bringer of rain.
I think ‘Heaven’ is the best way to translate it. In human terms ‘time of action’, active.

The junzi is all day active active, at nightfall he is apprehensive for danger.
‘Like’ or ‘seemingly’: literally ‘gather’. Awe as if there is danger. Acknowledging the danger.

There is nothing in the Chinese which connects the first part, about being creative, with the second about awe. One might cause the other, but I don’t think so. I think the noble one is creative – and feels awe, each at the right time. As long as there is daylight, active time, he is busy. But at night he acts the way you should act in the dark: reckoning with danger. The noble one knows when to act and when not to.

The fanyao, 10.3: Squinting, able to observe. Limping, able to walk. Tailing the tiger, he bites man, pitfall. A soldier acting like a great chief.
This too is about acting in the right way at the right moment. If you cannot see or walk very well, you still can see or walk. But not for tailing tigers. A soldier can act like a chief but does not have the abilities or situation. If he does, it is as hazardous as tailing a tiger with bad eyes (him, not the tiger).

I don’t think there is anything about too much activity. Just telling us what a wise person does, acting when it is the time for acting, and not in such a way that he forgets about the dark, the time of not-acting, but also everything which is in the background and has to be reckoned with.

So: no blame.

Agree with Meng.

LiSe

maremaria · Jun 6, 2008

Meng, If you are referring to my post, I use the “higher purpose” ironically, for personal reasons.

Lise, thanks for the “no blame” explanation.

Maria

heylise · Jun 6, 2008

Maria, I think your story very much hit the mark: what happens if you don't act at the right time, in the right measure. Then of course there is a lot of blame, and it is all the dragon's own. Being too creative, absorbed in his big project and forgetting everything else.

LiSe

meng · Jun 6, 2008

maremaria said:
Meng, If you are referring to my post, I use the “higher purpose” ironically, for personal reasons.

Maria

It was mostly Topal's comments I was referring to. Your use did give me the impression of your own higher purposes. If we don't set our higher purposes, who or what will?

maremaria · Jun 6, 2008

Meng, Just wanted to clarify my irony. Self-sarcasm is not always understood

LiSe, thanks.

rosada · Jun 6, 2008

I don't read Chinese, so my interpretations are just based on my own observations. But anyway, I do think there is a feeling of awareness of a "higher purpose" in this hexagram:

1.1 Pause. Who's in charge here?
1.2 Spot the smartest one in the room.
1.3 Do everything one can think of to be on this same wave length.

Interesting that 1.3 leads to hex. 10 : By doing everything one possibly can, one is brought into contact with the Tiger, the Supreme Authority. Like a student who crams for a test may then be able to hold his own discussing philosophy with the elders - if only for an instant.

meng · Jun 6, 2008

maremaria said:
Meng, Just wanted to clarify my irony. Self-sarcasm is not always understood

I think it brings an important question, about where higher purposes and goals are established. Is that the work of the Creative or of the Receptive? :mischief:

maremaria · Jun 6, 2008

meng said:
I think it brings an important question, about where higher purposes and goals are established. Is that the work of the Creative or of the Receptive?

I can't think it without the work of the receptive or the creative, I'm not sure. In the past I believed that happens in hex 3. Now I wonder...

Tohpol · Jun 6, 2008

meng said:
I don't see this higher purpose as an attribute of the Creative. I can conceive of beings with greater understanding, more refined expression of energy, or an expanded field of consciousness. I can conceive of collective consciousness and even a Godhead, but higher purpose means what? What is higher, for example, than a mother giving birth? The Creative didn't do that on his own!

The Creative, as I see it, is amoral. Hitler had an overabundance of the Creative. Nietzsche probably did too.

I see Eastern and Western labels can be problematic as I've discovered here in the past.

It’s really difficult to get on first base with all our different associations and labels. It’s like “Being” and “Non-Being” have different associations in the esoteric western traditions. I tend to end up in a mélange of the East and the occidental. Yet to untangle them…However, I think we’re actually saying the same thing.

Is the Creative and Receptive part of each other? Yes. Are they also “separate” manifesting in microcosmic/macrocosmic ways? Yup. Ebb and flow; sun and moon - polarities etc. So, for me the entropic dynamics come into play as being on the peak of extremes and when the extremes of either go very far from the point of dynamic tension. So, the "overabundance of the creative" in Yi terms actually becomes entropic?

I suppose by “higher purpose” it’s a convenient way of saying that which takes us closer to the Tao God/Goddess in a very non-linear sense. And so as the creative and receptive are in the same circle as it were, I see that they both play their parts in establishing that path away from that which is strictly materialistic.

For me, Hitler wasn't remotely creative in the sense that I understand it. He was using power of entropy as a means to attain his ends which had spectacular results but inevitably led to diminishing returns and a kind of implosion. So, he was embodying the energy of the creative/receptive but at the entropic extremes? That makes sense to me.

Then there’s sexual energy which I see as Creativity completely neutral and the “power” used and coloured via the intent of the human vehicle. Maybe sexual energy which pervades all is just that: Creative and Receptive interplay and the energy of the Universe and therefore amoral and neutral. Then it becomes "fractalized" into different qualities and expressions.

Geeze, I dunno.

I'm just floating on my life raft here trying to keep afloat :rofl:

Topal

dobro p · Jun 6, 2008

heylise said:
I don’t think there is anything about too much activity. Just telling us what a wise person does, acting when it is the time for acting, and not in such a way that he forgets about the dark, the time of not-acting, but also everything which is in the background and has to be reckoned with.

So: no blame.

The 'no blame' thing is significant support for your interpretation, but you have to reckon with the fact that qian is doubled: qian qian. So, maybe there isn't too much activity, but one thing is for sure - there has been a *lot* of activity.

Sparhawk · Jun 6, 2008

topal said:
For me, Hitler wasn't remotely creative in the sense that I understand it. He was using power of entropy as a means to attain his ends which had spectacular results but inevitably led to diminishing returns and a kind of implosion. So, he was embodying the energy of the creative/receptive but at the entropic extremes? That makes sense to me.

Hitler again???

The man refuses to die...

Tohpol · Jun 6, 2008

sparhawk said:
Hitler again??? The man refuses to die...

Quick, where's Frank when you need him? Then we can mention Cathars and Hitler in the same thread again! Whoo-hoo!

Topal

rosada · Jun 6, 2008

I think your dream image of a child with no arms or legs very archetypal, Meng. Like a creative ball of fire, an inspiration, and the details, the arms and legs, will develope later after giving it a rest..

If Topal starts an I Ching Recipe book, I suggest

1.3
Kitchen Sink Stew
Dump in everything.

meng · Jun 6, 2008

rosada said:
I think your dream image of a child with no arms or legs very archetypal, Meng. Like a creative ball of fire, an inspiration, and the details, the arms and legs, will develope later after giving it a rest..

It wasn't a dream

, I was WIDE awake.

That baby never had, never will have arms and legs. Pure energy or pure spirit has no need for them - they use our bodies.

meng · Jun 6, 2008

Hi Topal,

I wasn't associating eastern or western labels. I took the term "higher purpose" simply literally. Where we appear to differ is that I don't think there is a higher purpose, other than the purpose we ourself deem as higher. We create distinctions in our mind (most often collectively) and then think those distinctions are heaven's mandate: our values are God's values; though we more commonly claim God's values as our own. Odd that God would have such radically different values, no?

I think there's a gray area in the word "creativity", as it relates to the Yijing's model of the Creative. We assign certain elements to creativity that (I believe) differ from the Creative.

Let me go back to a modern myth: Star Wars. The Force is the Creative. Whether it is used to further the light side or dark side is up to whom? We make the place for it in ourselves. And you know, dark is only the absence of light, and light is only the absence of dark.

So, maybe you refer to higher purpose as being that which serves light? Topal

I thought you didn't buy into that new age malarkey!

rosada · Jun 6, 2008

Oh! Wow! Well,I guess this is what happens when you are sleep deprived, the world you usually only see in your dreams starts tracking you down on this side!

I was tripping out on the idea about the child having no arms or legs and thinking how ideas do not usually come to us full blown. They continue growing after they are "born."
There is the kernel, The Inner Truth, and then we have to give the Attention to Details.

meng · Jun 6, 2008

rosada said:
Oh! Wow! Well,I guess this is what happens when you are sleep deprived, the world you usually only see in your dreams starts tracking you down on this side!

I was tripping out on the idea about the child having no arms or legs and thinking how ideas do not usually come to us full blown. They continue growing after they are "born."
There is the kernel, The Inner Truth, and then we have to give the Attention to Details.

Tohpol · Jun 6, 2008

"Where we appear to differ is that I don't think there is a higher purpose, other than the purpose we ourself deem as higher."

Nope. No differing this end: I agree with that whole-heartedly.

"So, maybe you refer to higher purpose as being that which serves light? Topal I thought you didn't buy into that new age malarkey! "

The Divine Harey-Mahareshi Topali summons his sacred perogative to indulge in New Age whimsy once in a while. (And slice of Malarkey while I'm at it).

fkegan · Jun 6, 2008

There are also other views of hex 1.3 other than Wilhelm, although the notion of the hexagram name as The Creative also does not have to just mean personal creativity. The ideogram is an image of rays of sunshine turning swamp mist into clouds to water the crop fields, an ultimate expression of Cosmic Creativity that balances all things and produces all good results.

Gia-Fu Feng translated the line judgment for

hex 1.3 THE MASTER IS ACTIVE ALL DAY LONG. AT EVENING HE IS STILL ALERT. DANGER. NO BLAME. It is time for creation in the rhythm of the Tao.

Hex one taken as the sun shining in the sky gives rise to the notion of each of its 6 lines expressing the double-hours of the sundial. First before dawn, third high noon, 6th twilight after the sun has set and the day must release control to the night.

Hex 1.3 would then be about making hay in the sunshine, though with the awareness that at noon with the sun at the zenith, the next changes must be for the decline of the day (cf hex 55). So the judgment to be active all day, still alert in the evening but aware of the dangers and limitations of personal passion which also is associated to the third line.

Also, by expressing and exhausting personal passion (hex 1 line 3) the overall and abstract creative process of hex 1 is changed toward the interaction of process with the specifically individual and personal Hex 10.

The change in the ideogram for tzu from a picture of a baby to just simpler brush strokes has come up before, I believe in discussion of various Chinese terms for various sacrifices mentioned in the text. It is not that some babies have arms and legs and others don't so much as earlier drawings depicting complete babies with limbs and later more stylized brush strokes.

As to Topal, as to the pure all things are pure, others obsessed with other images or concepts find them cropping up for them in all sorts of situations. Perhaps even a bit of the spiritual Cathars hobnobbing with his higher self that knows all things, especially the future. As you invoke, so you call...

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