Early Chinese pendulums

Sparhawk · Jun 6, 2008

For your consideration. Something I bought from a collector in the U.S.

What do you see here??

maremaria · Jun 6, 2008

hex 57

or 57 1.3 >1

Sparhawk · Jun 7, 2008

maremaria said:
hex 57

or 57 1.3 >1

Great guess! Only thing with that is that this piece belongs to the Liangzhu Culture. This culture ended more than 600 years before the Shang Dynasty even started. That is, much before the recorded practice of oracle bone divination started... About a 1000 years before rudimentary Chinese writing started... More important, almost 2000 years before the date of the Mawangdui Silk Manuscript and other early recorded instances of the use of hexagrams and trigrams in connection with the Yijing. I'm not claiming that a strong connection may exist, but, one wonders.

Archeologist believe that these are the earliest depictions of the famous Taotie motifs , the little circles being the eyes of the motifs and the "broken lines" are the mouths, if seen from one of the edges. These motifs are also found, much more often, in Liangzhu's "jade congs" (also here)

Fascinating stuff to learn about these early Chinese cultures, like the Liangzhu and Longshan. The farther I go back, the more interesting.

willowfox · Jun 7, 2008

Thats a pendulum

meng · Jun 7, 2008

I see a plumb bob. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumb-bob

But it could also be a depth sounding line weight.

Sparhawk · Jun 7, 2008

willowfox said:
Thats a pendulum

That's what I named this thread, yes. It is more in line with something that could be used in divination. I like that possibility myself.

Now, Bruce has a good practical use for the artifact: a plumb-bob. I like that a lot. However, we may be wrong. Archeologists and anthropologists believe these are either awls of some sort, or ceremonial arrow or spear heads. They support their theories by the way these are usually found in tombs near the base of the occupant's skulls, where other ceremonial artifacts are found. Arrows and spears had a strong ceremonial use and meaning in ancient China and jade was used for their heads.

meng · Jun 7, 2008

Any idea of the size and weight, Luis?

Sparhawk · Jun 7, 2008

meng said:
Any idea of the size and weight, Luis?

5.3" and weights 2.5oz. It also has a square section of 0.6" on the thick part. It is made of nephrite jade. Cool little thing.

meng · Jun 7, 2008

Oh, that's way smaller than I thought. Too small and light for a plumb bob, or a pendulum, I think.

I'd say then, it looks more like an amulet. A good luck charm, as it were.

So then this is a piece you own?

meng · Jun 7, 2008

I just noticed the lines for gua 58, which might also indicate good luck and joy. Since it is roughly the size of a penis, I'll take a wild swing and say it's a good luck amulet to bring virility to the man who wears it. Or, maybe it was worn by ancient pool boys.

meng · Jun 7, 2008

Also, the circle between broken lines may indicate changing to gua 1, which is in line with the virility idea. How long ago do we have evidence of change lines? Would the time line of the piece fall within that period?

heylise · Jun 7, 2008

How about a key? In very old times they had quite clever constructions to prevent anyone from entering.
Hole in it so you can carry it around your neck or at your waist.

LiSe

Sparhawk · Jun 7, 2008

Actually, the one thing that prompted me to buy it is the hexagram like motif on the sides of it. As Maria mentioned, what I saw was 57 (when it hangs, it points down...)

The thing is that, as I also mentioned before, the Liangzhu Culture is way more ancient (in the range of millennia) than any written record and earliest vestiges of the Yi.

Trojina · Jun 7, 2008

My first thought..okay its penis size, it has 57 'gentle penetration' inscribed on it possibly...isn't it obvious..? Luckily these days they are made of more hmm flexible materials :rofl:

meng · Jun 7, 2008

I completely missed Maria's comment :duh:

and yes, 57 not 58.

I also like LiSe's key idea. Hmm, is there a 57/penetration to that, i.e. penetrating a lock, or a room?

Sparhawk · Jun 7, 2008

trojan said:
My first thought..okay its penis size, it has 57 'gentle penetration' inscribed on it possibly...isn't it obvious..? Luckily these days they are made of more hmm flexible materials

Sure, and then they all talk about me... :rofl:

dobro p · Jun 8, 2008

Actually, you're all circling around it, but not quite nailing it, although Trojan came up with half the answer.

See, it's a pendant alright, but one worn around the neck on a string. So, when you meet the girl who knows her Yi (those are the only sort of girls worth getting to know, obviously), what *she* reads when she sees it is 'gentle penetration' and that sort of makes her smile, if she's the right sort of girl for you. But when *you* look down at it, what you see is 58.3.6.>1, which is what you supply the situation.

Of course, I could be slightly wrong on this one. I mean, it could be a pendant worn by a woman. In that case, let's see...the message the guy would read when he saw it on her would be 'gentle penetration' and the message she read when she looked down at it would be 'pleasure and joy'.

Yes, I think that's it. We've got it now. Case dismissed.

meng · Jun 8, 2008

Great interpretation, man.

meng · Jun 8, 2008

Just based on the responses, Luis, it seems that whatever that thing is, it's sexual. But then, everything is.

Sparhawk · Jun 8, 2008

But of course! Everything longer than wider is a phallic symbol!!

Long live the phallus!! :rofl:

meng · Jun 8, 2008

I know what it is. It's an upside-down one of these things:

maremaria · Jun 8, 2008

dobro said:
Of course, I could be slightly wrong on this one. I mean, it could be a pendant worn by a woman. In that case, let's see...the message the guy would read when he saw it on her would be 'gentle penetration' and the message she read when she looked down at it would be 'pleasure and joy'.

.

Scene # 1.
She in a beach bar drinking mojitos.
He comes close to her. He looks at her pendant and says :

:wanna 57

She knows that he is the Right guy and responds

:flirt:

My 58

Scene # 2 : In Heaven……

solun · Jun 9, 2008

Have you or are you able to authenticate it?

Sparhawk · Jun 9, 2008

solun said:
Have you or are you able to authenticate it?

As much as I could, yes, I have.

charly · Jun 9, 2008

sparhawk said:
... It is more in line with something that could be used in divination. ... Now, Bruce has a good practical use for the artifact: a plumb-bob. I like that a lot. However, we may be wrong. Archeologists and anthropologists believe these are either awls of some sort, or ceremonial arrow or spear heads...

Luis:

Maybe here the same device with different lenghts, range 5 to 15 cm.. I grasp some alternatives from the article:

haipins
stone needles for acupuncture
related to phallic worship [有男性=having male nature]
insignia of military or royal power

For me, it look like pencils or stylus, also like plumbs for the top hole.

Here the wind trigram:

From: http://www.cangdian.com/Doc/CangNews/html/061025071645.html

Maybe knowing the gender and status of the corpses ...

Yours,

Charly

Sparhawk · Jun 10, 2008

Hi Charly,

Whatever the device is, the question remains: what are "possible" hexagrams doing in jades from a culture that ended without a trace (other than their jades) about 2250BCE? Even before the beginning of the legendary Xia Dynasty (2100-1600BCE)...

And is not only this particular piece. I've been reading everything I could find about the Hongshan, Longshan and Liangzhu cultures, their history and and wares, including ceramics and jades. If so inclined to see them, the hexagramatic motifs can be found in jade 'congs' and these "awl-like" artifacts. They are usually identified as the predecessors of the Shang and Zhou "Taotie", the little circles being the eyes of the Taotie when seen from the edge. What I identify with a yin line is what is interpreted as the 'mouth' of the Taotie. The yang lines are the 'forehead'.

Mind you, the most common trigrams to be found are versions of Dui or Xun. Sometimes they are stacked up to 12 high on a jade cong. Still, I don't believe that these artistic motifs in ancient artifacts can be discarded as completely irrelevant to the development of the hexagram/trigram system. If the motifs can usually be identified as predecessors of the Shang/Zhou Taotie, a subject whose meaning is still debated heatedly among scholars, I don't see why they can't also be seen as some sort of ancient foundation for the yin/yang lines. In all the literature I've been able to read, thus far, not a single scholar has made this connection (that I haven't found one doesn't meat I'm the first one to see this...) That fact alone speak for the strong, very strong possibility that I'm wrong... But, heck, think about the implications if I'm remotely right: It would place trigram/hexagram like artistic motifs right smack in the middle of the time when the mythical Fuxi is supposed to have existed.

By the way, Fuxi is usually depicted together with Nuwa and holding a 'square-like' device. See pictures. Now, these kind of "squares" use a weight tied to the main angle to measure angles over the traversing arm. Perhaps, as Bruce mentioned, these awl-like devices, could be used for such a purpose (plumb-bob) and don't need to be very heavy to do the job...

solun · Jun 10, 2008

To whom did you take the object to be authenticated? I mean, there are fortunes to be made out there by forgers of these types of things. And if it's an anomaly or something that raises so many questions ... it's suspicious. Which is not to say that you don't have something which is authentic - I am just curious and more than a little suspicious of these types of finds anymore. Good luck w/it

Sparhawk · Jun 11, 2008

Hmmm..., the forest or the tree...

Fair enough, it is true that there are lots of forgers out there making quick bucks with jades. What I will not do here is debate the authenticity of this particular artifact that happens to be in my possession. It is irrelevant to the discussion. What's important is what prompted me to do which is to study the "authenticated" ones out there, in the possession of museums and serious collectors. In that study I found the same general pattern that appears in the pictures I posted, where the pattern is so obviously similar to an hexagram. It was that similarity that sent me looking for more like it and they are to be found in the "authenticated" ones. But please, don't take my word for it and look for yourself.

Now, I'm not presenting a scholarly opinion. I'm just wondering aloud about the possibility of a connection between the Liangzhu Culture and their artistic motifs with the creation, millennia later, of the yin/yang lines, trigrams and hexagrams, we are accustomed to. If there is something the Chinese have done, for thousands of years, is to look to the past for direction and inspiration. I mean, it is possible that somebody in the Han Dynasty, or even the Zhou, came across ancient jades with these kind of patterns and made a visual connection with the polarity presented in the Yi.

That's what I wonder about...

charly · Jun 11, 2008

sparhawk said:
Hi Charly,

Whatever the device is, the question remains: what are "possible" hexagrams doing in jades from a culture that ended without a trace (other than their jades) about 2250BCE? Even before the beginning of the legendary Xia Dynasty (2100-1600BCE)...

And is not only this particular piece. I've been reading everything I could find about the Hongshan, Longshan and Liangzhu cultures, their history and and wares, including ceramics and jades. If so inclined to see them, the hexagramatic motifs can be found in jade 'congs' and these ...

[/B]By the way, Fuxi is usually depicted together with Nuwa and holding a 'square-like' device. See pictures. ...

Luis:

I go to see the pictures you say. I'm afraid that the pencil-like pictures that I posted dissapeared.

The page that I quoted says about the last type of described devices:

带有男性崇拜的含义

带dài adhered
有yǒu has
男性nán xìng male nature / male sex
崇拜chóng bà worship
的dí main / principal
含义hán yì meaning / sense

Say the main meaning is related to phallic worship.

And you answers me with such obscene pictures of FuXi and NuWa copulating as snakes! (1)

If I understand you well in jade congs there are differents sybols related to hexagrams or it's only the simplified taotie design ?

I believe that the plumb like device had of course magic powers as all carved precious stone. Maybe the usage is related to divination:

being thrown like bones, dices
being thrown like arrows or sticks
printing random pendular traces on mud or sand
making random different squared holes on mud or sand
printing the taotie design as a tampoon or seal

Say devices for getting signs for being interpreted as omens, why could not bear hexagrams?

The divinatory device acquires the sense of power, wealth, longevity and of course virility or fecondity of its owner (the dead).

Surely it have many magic uses, not only divinatory.

Yours,

Charly

______________________
(1) for ENTWINED SERPENTS see: http://www.khandro.net/animal_serpent_good.htm

Sparhawk · Jun 11, 2008

Hola Charly,

charly said:
If I understand you well in jade congs there are differents sybols related to hexagrams or it's only the simplified taotie design ?

"Different symbols related to hexagrams" may just be a figment of my wild imagination. What scholars seem to agree with is that many motifs, found in jade congs and other types of jades, are precursors of the taotie designs found later on in Shang/Zhou bronzes. What they don't agree with amongst themselves, even after all these years of modern debate, is what the taotie really meant within those cultures...

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