Hello :bows:
Could you expand a little on the concept of looking at the future : why it would turn negative BECAUSE you ask something/want something to happen? Who believes this and for what reason? I'm intrigued.
Thanks

Does anyone believe this?

I can imagine that someone could mess up by asking 'what will happen?' when they could more usefully be asking for advice, focussing on the future and neglecting what they could be doing here and now - but that's not what you're talking about, is it?

I think Julee might be referring to something Twilight has said a few times here and there that if you get a favourable oracle and you persist in asking about the issue it can turn bad, you start getting a negative response . I think he means that you will actually change the outcome if you keep asking.



Sounds peculiar yet part of me doesn't entirely dismiss it as I've noticed it happen. Starting off with a very positive answer, keep asking and a few tosses down the line the situation has become dire (in the answer) If you consider the dialogue between the Yi and you has some kind of energetic...erm aliveness then perhaps merely asking about something changes it ?

I don't know I'm just saying what I thought Twilight meant. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm way off there.

So if alot of people ask about say the political situation in the US,who is going to be president etc as they have been doing, do you think it affects the actual political situation or do you think such questions have no impact, only personal questions ?

In no time your oracles will turn on you, because they are now no longer about your question but instead are reflecting your indulgent and trivial interaction with the oracle. But a novice will not realise this and will press on further and further imagining all sorts of dire scenarios unfolding, but the only dire scenario they are in is their present moment.

Click to expand...

This much is uncontentious for me - I've seen it happen plenty of times. The series of answers may reveal one or two rephrased/ simplified answers, and then things derail completely. Sometimes you can follow the way the readings are still talking to the person and their doubts/misapprehensions, sometimes you can't.

The idea that in the process, the world beyond this conversation with the oracle has also been changed... that's a more challenging one. I can imagine how it could happen sometimes, though: there are occasions when a certain opening is only there for a certain mindset. So it's not so much the act of asking repeatedly that would change things, more the state of mind behind it: increasing anxiety, diminishing trust. Kind of the opposite of 'fixing the omen'. Readings describing the presence/absence of fu, trust-truth-confidence-sincerity, could be a commentary on this.

Unfortunately i can't remember the details, but I read somewhere that an actual study was done that somehow added up to something to the effect that the more people predicted a thing would happen, it wouldn't. Geez, that sounds simplistic, but my point is that there seems to actually be some awareness that predicting things changes things. I think how all the astrologers were saying Hilary was a shoe in till the last moment. Maybe this is why prediction is an art. Maybe when we predict exactly what will happen there is no need for it to happen and so we are thrown the next set of circumstances.

Really interesting. I agree with Twilight more or less, though I think it depends on the strength of that relationship with the Yi i.e. how long one has been genuinely seeking to understand it and to apply the advice given. Intention is important here I think.

I remember when I've asked several questions like an extended conversation - even when I was a bit emotionally charged - and the answers were remarkably similar. I took my cues from the Yi itself as an organic process rather than going back to the original question phrased differently. If I did, then the Yi would certainly tell me with a 52 or a 4 and I would then stop. In other words, rather like Chris Lofting's "best fit" idea the Yi gives you a variety of hexes illustrating the same point, a variation on a theme rather than necessarily switching off and reflecting your own desires. It's like the Yi offers you moment by moment chances to "get it." Again, I think that depends on the intent and authentic nature of the initial question.

If you are asking again and again seeking to enforce your wishes based on a need isolated from reason rather than seeking to truly understand and learn I think then distortion could come into play.

Topal

Hi Twilight,
You seem to have two philosophical questions intertwined with one another. One is about future events. In general, casting the Yi involves taking an sounding of the instantaneous state of the Cosmic Flux (it is the I Ching or Flux Tome after all). What that has to say about future events depends upon current momentum remaining unchanged which is certain for issues like the time of the sunrise this date next year, but very doubtful in issues where you or the oracle you cast or anyone else being able to affect the situation and introduces changes or at least new forces or energies that will make changes.

The other question is about the impact of being very personally and emotionally involved in the desired outcome of an oracle to the point of asking over and over to try to nail things down or turn them around. In that case what matters most is your involvement emotionally and how that affects the oracle you get. In general the Yi oracle is on a 'need to know basis' which means the answer you get is what you NEED to know not necessarily what you precisely asked this nth time you cast the oracle.

Will the Oracle cancel your perfect date or mess up your ideal relationship out of pique that you asked too many times about the situation? Doubtful, though if all you are doing is throwing the coins or yarrow stalks or computer click like a gambling addict your state of mind may well become an intervening force changing the Oracle situation between your first positive oracle and your actually going to collect what you expect from actual situations.

Frank

Reminds me of the old saying:

"A watched pot never boils"

so, by the same token if something negative were predicted and you keep on asking, it could change also, given the fluid nature of everything.. so everyone would be doing that.. but can we really change everything just by asking? i quite like what frank wrote.
maybe non-acceptance triggers physical action to change things

julee said:

maybe non-acceptance triggers physical action to change things

Click to expand...

Or acceptance?

julee said:

so, by the same token if something negative were predicted and you keep on asking, it could change also, given the fluid nature of everything.. so everyone would be doing that.. but can we really change everything just by asking? i quite like what frank wrote.
maybe non-acceptance triggers physical action to change things

Click to expand...

Look, in my personal experience, years of throwing, this just is not true.

hollis said:

Look, in my personal experience, years of throwing, this just is not true.

Click to expand...

but the idea that asking the Yi a question actually changes the outcome of an event is kind of beguiling as it puts the magic in it doesn't it ? We all have got rather into the Yi as a question and answer machine with no impact of its own.

Seems people here on this thread are interpreting Twilights idea in psychological terms as in if you start in a positive frame of mind, keep asking, get more negative, you lose your good vibe...hence you mess up. But I took it as as a kind of magical thing. You engaged with an energy (and i don't mean your own mind energy), engaging with this energy, the Yi, directly impacts on how things go purely because you've bought it into the equation.

I've no idea how true it is, but sort of find it beguiling since if everyone really believed this Yi consultation would drop by 75% at least wouldn't it ? It would be taken as a serious act rather than a casual one.

Magic: 2 a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source

Now, in terms of perceived, so called, "reality," how natural is to rely in the answers of the Yijing? IMO, magic is in the Yijing and the Yijing is in magic. So, we may as well graduate both into the "natural" realm if we feel unconfortable with one of them being in the "supernatural" one. There should be no believing in the Yijing and laughing at what is understood as "magic," or vice-versa.

Seems to me the sooner you can smell the coffee, the better. And when you do, then just quit asking about it and move on.

trojan said:

But I took it as as a kind of magical thing. You engaged with an energy (and i don't mean your own mind energy), engaging with this energy, the Yi, directly impacts on how things go purely because you've bought it into the equation.

I've no idea how true it is, but sort of find it beguiling since if everyone really believed this Yi consultation would drop by 75% at least wouldn't it ? It would be taken as a serious act rather than a casual one.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think I have bumped up against this energy, , but this magical entity of the divination in the end always meets up with practical reality: this view you talk about Trojan, this magical aspect, and the practical reality start to look an awful like each other. Seriously. And I would say my divination has dropped,...errrr.....50% allowing 25% for my OCD cuz I started finally figuring out that divination, calling down the Yi, is an act, a serious act.

When the YJ has given me predictions, as opposed to strategies or other motivational types of responses, those predictions have been completely accurate. Sometimes I didn't even know it was a prediction, that was being given. After the fact, I could see I had a prediciton, not a teaching, given.

Predictions about presidential election predictions, things like that are a little different than asking about say, love life. I do ask for readings, about elections and get very trustworthy ones, but I ask sparingly, and if it really matters to me , I never share the answer with anyone...and about elections, i only ask if it really is in that field of questioning the Yi, which means, for me, a certain frame of mind rich with sincerity. I am not good at asking trival matters.

(Not that you can't, & I have tried to ask trivial questions, but it just doesn't work with me as I haven't that kind of disposition that can take the oracle lightly. Some people can rattle off scores of questions and get great answers, guess they don't ask with bleeding fingers )

For instance, once, years ago, I was going travelling somewhere, and asked about going. I was given a response that indicated that something good I had done, that I was unaware of, would bring about a very auspicious connection. This answer meant absolutely nothing to me, I went on the trip, and did indeed make an very important connection, quite innocently so.

Later as I got embroiled in that relationship, and got answers that left me stranded, the more I questioned, the more I left behind was was ever true about it. Asking more questions never changed the underlying facts of the matter.

julee said:

so, by the same token if something negative were predicted and you keep on asking, it could change also, given the fluid nature of everything.. so everyone would be doing that.. but can we really change everything just by asking? i quite like what frank wrote.
maybe non-acceptance triggers physical action to change things

Click to expand...

You know, for instance, if you are asking about a case of outrageous injustice, something you are willing to really take a stand for, then you can challenge the tides and can perhaps win. But sometimes you cant. But it sin't done by throwing coins.

To get to the field of fluidness, I haven't gotten there yet just paying necessary dues till I can start the practice.

julee said:

so, by the same token if something negative were predicted and you keep on asking, it could change also, given the fluid nature of everything.. so everyone would be doing that.. but can we really change everything just by asking? i quite like what frank wrote.
maybe non-acceptance triggers physical action to change things

Click to expand...

Hi Julee,
I am glad you enjoyed what I wrote.

The issue centers upon what is it that we are ultimately doing when we cast the Oracle. Are we spinning the levers of Cosmic power or seeking information and insight into our own question? If the Yi has the power to cause stuff to happen, that is a great deal of responsibility for all involved. The Wilhelm commentary on hex 4 leaps to mind, keep asking annoying or impertinent questions and the Oracle will stop answering (and from the line judgment commentary) maybe even punish you for the general good,

Personally, I prefer the information and insight alternative. This still allows me to experience the Oracle as mystical Taoist spirit who can be playful, supportive, teasing or brilliant in various situations though without having to worry about interfering with the reality of Planetary development.

The changes in momentum I was referring to was personal understanding not actual action. If you are hung up on a situation or a person, information in an oracle that they might be Prince Charming or a dodgy cad will more likely change your rush of feelings than actually cause the situation to unfold differently.

The same person will appear and respond differently if you change your attitude. One of the hopes is that we each manage to learn to see what we are doing as well as how we view others and thus see them or the Cosmos doing things to us.

Speaking from my own personal history, there was a stage in my relationship with the Oracle where I cast the Yi many times in a day, often many times in response to a particular answer. Generally, the Yi oracle is most impressive when its answer is unique--which of course it literally can not be if it is just part of a string of oracles. When a single oracle is not sufficient, generally many more will not change the feeling.

Overall, my experience is that there is a better return upon considering what it is that is so unsettling rather than hoping a further set of oracles would be more satisfying. If I find myself emotionally demanding a certain outcome and upset if the Oracle doesn't go along, there isn't much any oracle can do for me--I want what I want and I want it NOW and that demand may be as much of a hindrance to success as anything else.

The issue of prediction is a totally separate matter. Does the Yi predict the future? Or give an immediate reading of the state of the Cosmic Flux which may or may not continue unchanged through the future time you are focused upon?

The use of meditation in Eastern inquiry notes that what you perceive is as much a matter of what is happening with you and your perception as it is with what is happening in objective, socially shared reality.

Frank

hollis said:

.

When the YJ has given me predictions, as opposed to strategies or other motivational types of responses, those predictions have been completely accurate. Sometimes I didn't even know it was a prediction, that was being given. After the fact, I could see I had a prediciton, not a teaching, given.

.

Click to expand...

yes i noticed that too.

i dunno Trojan, think I was on crack today.

wow this is all very interesting..I had never thought divination with IC could be "magical" but that kind of summarises it perfectly. Welcome to the world of possibility..................

I love this place! This topic has been on my mind a lot lately, since I've just been through a period of many questions. Spent a lot of time looking up interpretations on the archives and noticed that it's sometimes frowned upon to ask more than once. For me it depends, though I agree with the poster who said that newcomers should exercise caution. I'm in my second decade with the Yi, and it's only in the past six or so years that I've been able to work with repeated readings. But the context is really important. Some of my deepest experiences with Yi came from using it to help others. I taught at an inner city high school for 2 years. The place was a nightmare-- lowest test scores in the country, gangs, violence, corruption at the staff level, etc. At the time, I cast readings every morning and several times at night, always asking how best to help the kids. I would have never made it through without the guidance and strength provided by the Yi. It was as though it was working through me, sometimes literally it seemed (all the corpse boys ). Hex 7 was the main theme of these years and I must have cast it hundreds of times. I needed those daily messages just to stay focused and control my emotions so that I could best help those kids. (of course I often sobbed at home in private..) And it worked. It intervened with my students and changed some lives. Maybe that's an extreme situation, but it taught me a lot about the power of the Yi.

So I don't think that frequent questioning is necessarily a bad thing, just depends on situations, contexts, intentions, and so on. It's pretty multi-faceted isn't it?