I asked the I Ching to comment on the Western concept of voting in politics. Voting for politicians and such.7 The answer I got was. Hexagram 12, Stagnation, with the lines 2,4 and 6 changing the hexgram into 29, The Abysmal.

I'll think about this one and come back. What is yout take on this reading? Thanks.

12 deals with neutralising the attacks of others on one's beliefs.

29 deals with issues of containment and control.

Greatness departs, smallness arrives

Remember that the Yi was written by and for the nobility or Junxi, not the common man or Xiaoren. As the election of Bush proves in the States, the majority is an idiot. We are not seeing a lot of evidence here that democracy is a viable method of government.
The Yi is not a democratic manifesto. The ideology of the Yi eventually contributed to a system of government called Meritocracy in the Han Dynasty, but this too got out of control when the exam system got too topheavy.
The common man was always important in the Yi (see Gua 23 especially), but he was not to be trusted with leadership.

Just a quick note as I really must get back to work. Hexagram 12 is indeed about stagnation, greatness going and smallness coming. But the moving lines are about how this basic situation is tackled and transformed.

I had a recent experience with 12, which released the negativity often associated with the hexagram. As it played out, there was no sign of corruption or stagnation, merely a time where there was no podium or position to speak from (not honored with revenue). So long as I was content with that, it felt similar to 11.

So, I interpret the reading above as saying, voting is ones small way of making changes, though the voter remains small and anonymous and otherwise insignificant. That too speaks to the "common man or woman". 29 may retain ones individualism and nature, sometimes in personally dangerous ways, but only if the majority agrees.

While Yi is not a democratic manifesto, it is able to objectify the question, as it does with any question, without proclivity toward archaic or contemporary philosophies of government.

"As the election of Bush proves in the States, the majority is an idiot."

That was a very, very slim majority. Nor does voting against Bush necessarily make one a genius - try asking those violent masked anarchist protesters that show up at the G-7 conferences how to "build a better world." Nor does being in disagreement with some of the views of a liberal president (and therefore voting for Bush as "the lesser of two evils", in that person's view) make someone dumb.

Now Bush himself, well... that's another matter ;-). I personally never voted for him, nor do I think he's done much good as president (not for a lack of trying in his own misguided way). He does have a degree from Yale, though.

And yes generally for the vast majority of us who aren't born Da Vinci's, intelligence seems to be the top of a very broad pyramid - requires a huge support infrastructure of food, shelter, materials, gobs of free time, access to institutions and teachers, etc. etc. Not too many genius autodidacts down here...

- Jeff

I remember hearing of president Eisenhower's expression of horror that half of the American population had below-average IQ's. I hope to not have to explain that one.

Bush lost the popular vote - and only won the electoral vote. He did not have the majority.
And... his degree from Yale was about his father, not his own intellect (which itself sounds like an oxymoron!)

I'm a little unclear as to how we are defining "The Western concept of voting in politics." Are you refering to the idea that every citizen of voting age has the right to vote? Assuming that you are...

12. Standstill (Stagnation)
Evil people do not further
the perseverance of the superior man.
The great departs; the small approaches.
Thus the superior man falls back upon his inner
worth
In order to escape difficulties.
He does no t allow himself to be honored with revenue.

This discribes a situation in which there is no possibility of exerting influence. Perhaps the I Ching is saying the Western electrical process is flawed. Perhaps it disagrees with the laws restricting who can run for office, who can vote, and how the votes are counted. The I Ching goes on to say that in such a situation, the Superior man does not participate. So there seems to first be a caution here that the Western voting system is not always best because there are those situations where the voting process is not legitamate. Perhaps the offices are not open to all candidates (the presicent must be born in the U.S.A.), or certain segments of society are denied voting rights ( no one under 18 can vote) or finally, the vote count maybe untrustworthy. Given these circumstances, the Superior person would boycott the elections.

12.2
They bear and endure:
This means good fortune for inferior people.
The standstill serves to help the great man to attain success.

Seems to me the I Ching is telling us that some people don't even want the vote. They would rather leave the decision making up to others. Sometimes this means leaving decisions up to Dictators who look after them like a Godfather, someone they will support just because he wont be as bad as someone else, and sometimes this can mean electing a Representative whom they feel understands issues better than they. This means they might even elect a brilliant statesman to office, if they thought he could end their confusion. But neither path - fawning over some gang leader or electing a Wise Leader - is the appropriate path for The Superior Man. The Superior doesn't look to anyone to be his leader.

12.4
He who acts at the command of the highest
Remains without blame.
Those of like mind partake of the blessing.

This seems to be a message for those who might run for office. It cautions that only those who really feel called to a task should attempt it. Those who simply want to impose their own ideas are going to make mistakes. If they are truly called to the task, election or no election, they will be successful and everyone will benefit. I think of a leader like Martin Luther King. People did not vote for him to lead, he simply did what he needed to do and people followed him.

12.6
The standstill comes to an end.
First standstill, then good fortune.
This says to me the I Ching is advising that we not look for leaders and not look for followers. As we all follow aor inner guidance and do what we feel inspired to do, the world becomes alive and joyful.

29.
If you are sincere, you have success in your heart,
And whatever you do succeeds.

Hi Cassius,

To me it sounds like that within the concept of hexagram 12 the Yi is letting us show that the western political voting system makes an end to standstills (then it would be come about time we voted again...). By voting we change (lines 2,4,6) the goverment, and therefor have to wait in agony what that bunch of people will make of the next four years (29)...

Sounds again logical to me...
(just like your other question about the Yi?s opinion about China, that?s political too :-D).

Frank

Hi,

The media in the UK has centered recently on voter apathy. Turnout in the votes is apparently at an all time low. Rosada's comments seem to reflect the general reasons cited for this.

Hopefully it will right itself in the end: hex 29

Love
Nicky
xx

I'm often frustrated how after posting something here, I'll reread my comments and wish I could rewrite them! Anyway, that not being possible, I will just add some later thoughts here.
I think 12.2 really points to the spiritual problem in the electorial system. That is, it invites people to abdicate their responcibility to understand the issues. "Inferior people" are only too happy to let someone else figure out what should be done. This is good fortune for the "Superior Person" - probably because the Superior person is the one running for office and so if inferior people are willing to let someone else figure out how things should be done, then I suppose this at least means they'll get out of the way, but the IChing doesn't seem to think very highly of voting away one's responcibilities to be informed.
12.4 warns that the person running for office really needs to have a Higher Vision for the job, else his viewpoint of what should be done will be no better than anyone elses and the entire situation will still be mired in Standstil. Likewise if the Vision is inspired, being elected isn't necessarily required - nobody voted for Galileo, but his vision changed the world.
12.6 Standstill comes to an end. This is really important. The IChing doesn't say HOW Standstill comes to an end, but I get that the implication is that Standstill comes to an end because individuals don't continue to wait around for their elected officials - or the next election - to solve their problems, but rather because they find while being stuck in political deadlocks that solutions come to us as individuals as to what we can do right now ourselves to get things moving. When Sonny Bono died he was a member of the House of Representatives. It was reported that he didn't often participate in the debates, I guess feeling he was new or whatever, but when things got heavy and stuck late at night sonny would make a call and a knock would come on the House's chamber door and in would march a line of delivery boys bringing Pizza! Sonny knew there's nothing like a good pizza to get people moving again - and it worked.

Changing to ..
29.
The abyss gets a bad rap, I think. If we actually read what the IChing says it talks about the Superior Man following his inner knowingness. Perhaps the I Ching is suggesting that rather than voting based on our knowledge, perhaps leaders should be selected by people relying more on their inner feelings. I wonder what would happen if at voting booths we had muscle testers who would help each person get an energetic sence as to wheather they would be better off voting for one candidate or another? Also 29 says the Superior Man carries on the business of teaching. Perhaps this means before Western voting practices can get us out of Standstill, people need to be better informed.

Anyway, I know I'm pretty much repeating what I said before. I guess because there seems to be alot in this reading and I think if we ruly are here to learn about the IChing it's helpful to take the lines one by one and really look at them.

It might be interesting to ask the IC what would be an improvement to our current system.

RE: It might be interesting to ask the IC what would be an improvement to our current system.

My comments above were somewhat tongue in cheek as usual. but I do think the Yi would still advocate for a form of aristocracy. Given the shots it takes at bad leadership, I think it safe to assume that the Yi would hold with Tom Paine that the big problem with the aristocracy we know is that "virtue is not hereditary", but still advocate for a nobler class of citizens with a "noblesse oblige" (an obligation of the nobility to care for the common man). We would certainly be better served by finding a better way to put the best people in office than the current system of leaving things to propaganda and mob rule. I do think, howerver, that the Yi authors would see the good sense of both equal rights and equal opportunity as the way to insure that somebody of merit can always rise to an optimum position.
Our modern failures are teaching some of us much. This is how I see the Zhi Gua 29, learning best by passing through dificulty.
We all like to have the Yi say just what we believe, as we just saw someone make the Yi an advocate for neurotic Christian sexual abstinence programs. But I think there are lots of statements in the Yi, both the Zhouyi and the Da Xiang, that might support some version of Thomas Jeffersons notion of a "Natural Aristocracy", as he expains it in a letter to John Adams:
http://www.greatbooks.org/typ/301.0.html

Rosada, You CAN edit your replies by going to your profile...I am not saying you need to, of course,(they are always thoughtful) but that function is there. M

Similar ideas regarding a noblesse oblige seem to be echoed in Mencius, although that doesn't seem to be a major theme...

"'In the Book of History it is said, "Heaven having produced the inferior people, made for them rulers and teachers, with the purpose that they should be assisting to God, and therefore distinguished them throughout the four quarters of the land. Whoever are offenders, and whoever are innocent, here am I to deal with them. How dare any under heaven give indulgence to their refractory wills?"

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/menc/menc03.htm

- Jeff

Thank you for these links, Bradford and Jte. With all the talk about disenfranchised voters in New Orleans and who has the right to vote, this sort of information will grately improve the dinner table discussions!

Thank you for the tip, Micheline (and the kind words!) Of course, now I'll have NO excuse...

onward,
Rosada